Season 6, Episode 9 "Battle of the Bastards" Discussion Thread

[Reek]

a bit of devils advocate here, don't flay me.

DRAGONS LOCKED UP AND TREATED LIKE ****... CANT BREAK THROUGH CHAINS....*Bust out of a brick pyramid and immediately join dany like nothing happened*

 

[Fist of Khonshu]

Iwan Rheon deserves an Emmy for this episode. ****ing amazing performance.

I'm happy for Kit too as he seems to get a lot of grief but he was excellent as well. That sequence of Jon standing on his own, with sword in hand, while the charge was coming at him was absolutely inspiring and if it were me, I would have switched sides there and then.

Interesting that Jon sowed the seeds for winning over the other houses going by his line about the soldiers of the great houses following their Lords and Ramsay out of fear. The only issue is that I don't think Lord Karstark was killed? Or it wasn't shown at least.

That's what I was just asking a friend. Maybe he's fled south to warn the Freys and Lannisters?

 

[Roose Bolton]

She would have never killed her if Stannis did not allow it. She was right, it did what she said it would. That was on Stannis.

I'm not denying Stannis is guilty, but Mel was a willing party to the murder of a child. It wasn't like she was reluctantly going along with what Stannis commanded, she was actively promoting the idea and wasn't the least bit concerned by it until she found out she was backing the wrong horse. I can't see someone like Jon wanting to keep around someone like that. And with Thoros heading North he might not have need of her.

 

[flickchick85]

How on earth was jon not special? He not only dodged thousands of arrows, horses, etc etc... he also has cat like reflexes and blocked close range arrows... If anything, this was Jon's special moment. I couldn't help but think of the ridiculousness of the Lord of Light 'watching over him' as all those arrows missed him but impaled others ... multiple times...

I mean, this is the same logic anytime a hero leading a battle survives when all the men around him died, so I'm just used to suspending my disbelief at such a scenario at this point, lol.

 

[Fist of Khonshu]

a bit of devils advocate here, don't flay me.

DRAGONS LOCKED UP AND TREATED LIKE ****... CANT BREAK THROUGH CHAINS....*Bust out of a brick pyramid and immediately join dany like nothing happened*

Tyrion freed them because they had stopped eating, so presumably they started eating again and regained their strength.

 

[flickchick85]

That was the whole point of Tyrion freeing the dragons and treating them better again several episodes ago, I'm assuming. He said the dragons were super-smart creatures who could understand him, and he did say he was there on behalf of their mother, so...whatever, it's dragons.

 

[Fist of Khonshu]

How on earth was jon not special? He not only dodged thousands of arrows, horses, etc etc... he also has cat like reflexes and blocked close range arrows... If anything, this was Jon's special moment. I couldn't help but think of the ridiculousness of the Lord of Light 'watching over him' as all those arrows missed him but impaled others ... multiple times...

It was all very unbelievable but so very good and fun to watch...

Yes, he was ridiculously lucky in this battle.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

We'll just have to agree to disagree, Darth. I don't care that Jon wasn't so "special" this ep. That's not why I watch the show, and frankly, I've always seen Jon as more of a "blue collar hero" than some strategic genius, just like Ned, so his strategic simplicity didn't bother me. He has good ideas and logic, but the logic here was, they were screwed. I didn't expect him to pull a miracle out of a hat. I liked seeing Sansa come through instead for once.

This is the logic of every major battle on GoT. How has it not been?

It isn't that it didn't show Jon as "special", they did. My problem is how they did it. Through some ridiculous stuff. Jon, Robb and Ned are not blue collar heroes. They were taught how to fight war. It is why they are all so good at it. They have made this clear several times, like when Jon first arrives at the Wall, Robb's campaign and of course the defense of the Wall.

Here it was like, well **** all that stuff, he is going to do some really stupid crap and he is just going to survive this just because. It is like the difference between most war movies and Saving Private Ryan. When they hit that bench and Hanks takes over. He shows why he is the leader.

Them pulling a LotR was not my problem. That was great. I am one of the few legit Sansa fans here and have been since the beginning. And it is of course not the first time they have done it, it is has been twice before. It was how they got there that was the problem for me.

I get how cathartic and "fun" this was, because I enjoyed it on that level as well. But in terms of story and character, I was a little letdown.

 

[Reek]

That was the whole point of Tyrion freeing the dragons and treating them better again several episodes ago, I'm assuming. He said the dragons were super-smart creatures who could understand him, and he did say he was there on behalf of their mother, so...whatever, it's dragons.

WHATEVER!!!!!!

It's dragons.

I can dig it

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I mean, this is the same logic anytime a hero leading a battle survives when all the men around him died, so I'm just used to suspending my disbelief at such a scenario at this point, lol.

It isn't though. It really isn't. GoT has been great about this, which is why I was a bit letdown here. In an episode built around a battle, it is kind of a big deal.

 

[TheFuture]

That's what I was just asking a friend. Maybe he's fled south to warn the Freys and Lannisters?

If that puts him in the firing line of Arya or the BwB then that's ok by me. I was looking forward to his death more so then Smalljon's.

As for Jon's good fortune in the battle, the only thing that made me laugh was when he jumped on the ground with his back turned to successfully avoid the arrows. Other than that I was happy to roll with his BAMFING.

 

[Reek]

... i'm just gonna go watch this episode again and pop open a brew... cause it needs to be done.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I'm not denying Stannis is guilty, but Mel was a willing party to the murder of a child. It wasn't like she was reluctantly going along with what Stannis commanded, she was actively promoting the idea and wasn't the least bit concerned by it until she found out she was backing the wrong horse. I can't see someone like Jon wanting to keep around someone like that. And with Thoros heading North he might not have need of her.

She did what the Lord of Light told her to do. And that is exactly why Jon is alive. We will see what happenes, though don't see how Thoros would be much use to him.

 

[flickchick85]

This is the logic of every major battle on GoT. How has it not been?

It isn't that it didn't show Jon as "special", they did. My problem is how they did it. Through some ridiculous stuff. Jon, Robb and Ned are not blue collar heroes. They were taught how to fight war. It is why they are all so good at it. They have made this clear several times, like when Jon first arrives at the Wall, Robb's campaign and of course the defense of the Wall.

Here it was like, well **** all that stuff, he is going to do some really stupid crap and he is just going to survive this just because. It is like the difference between most war movies and Saving Private Ryan. When they hit that bench and Hanks takes over. He shows why he is the leader.

Them pulling a LotR was not my problem. That was great. I am one of the few legit Sansa fans here and have been since the beginning. And it is of course not the first time they have done it, it is has been twice before. It was how they got there that was the problem for me.

I get how cathartic and "fun" this was, because I enjoyed it on that level as well. But in terms of story and character, I was a little letdown.

I don't equate Jon and Robb like that. Robb was more of the strategist to me, because he was always going to be leading the Stark army someday as was his birthright. Jon has always been more "blue collar" to me because of his bastard status, but a natural talent nonetheless. Anyway, I feel EVERY battle ep of this show has its ridiculous suspension of disbelief moments and this was no different, I just found it was executed in the most thrilling and satisfying ways yet, hence it's my fave.

 

[Reek]

Melisandre is the one who suggested burning Shireen in the first place... he called her a crazy *****.

 

[Reek]

She did what the Lord of Light told her to do. And that is exactly why Jon is alive.

The Lord of Light did not tell Melisandre to bring back Jon. She did that because Davos asked her to try, she had given up.

 

[TheFuture]

... i'm just gonna go watch this episode again and pop open a brew... cause it needs to be done.

*looks at clock*

Appoves.

 

[Roose Bolton]

She did what the Lord of Light told her to do. And that is exactly why Jon is alive. We will see what happenes, though don't see how Thoros would be much use to him.

At this point Thoros seems more adept at R'hllor's Magic than Mel. He's an old hat when it comes to ressurection and he seems like he'd be better at parties.

On the whole I think you should cast your vote for Thoros #2017.

 

[Marvolo]

There is nothing pragmatic about getting into bed with a scorpion/rattlesnake hybrid like Baelish.

Spoiler

Rickon didn't get a single line this season.

Well, what was they supposed to do? This show and the books operate based on the realities of politics and the reality of having to make tough decisions. No one in that world gets to wave a wand or wish things weren't the way they are. Just like America and every country has to get in bed with questionable allies so do every House in Westeros. Especially when the only alternative is leaving the North, The Wall, and Westeros to Ramsay and later the White Walkers. That was not an option. Baelish was the only option. That is why it is the pragmatic choice. Sansa realised like any sensible person should that Ramsay was the immediate threat. Not Baelish. They can deal with Baelish at a later date. Or they could all die and leave all the people counting on them to deal with Ramsay and White Walkers.

 

[flickchick85]

It isn't though. It really isn't. GoT has been great about this, which is why I was a bit letdown here. In an episode built around a battle, it is kind of a big deal.

It is though, it really is.

No seriously, even at Blackwater when Stannis was leading the charge without even a damn helmet, I was suspending disbelief that no one was able to take him out while all his men around him were getting hit with arrows. Or that none of the wildlings targeted Jon when he was walking across the courtyard of Castle Black during the battle in WotW. It happens at various points throughout every battle ep for me, but it doesn't bother me in the slightest.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I don't equate Jon and Robb like that. Robb was more of the strategist to me, because he was always going to be leading the Stark army someday as was his birthright. Jon has always been more "blue collar" to me because of his bastard status, but a natural talent nonetheless. Anyway, I feel EVERY battle ep of this show has its ridiculous suspension of disbelief moments and this was no different, I just found it was executed in the most thrilling and satisfying ways yet, hence it's my fave.

Jon was trained to serve by Robb's side. I love you FC, but I feel like you are ignoring everything we have learned.

And there is suspension of disbelief during specific moments, and building the entire battle around it.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

The Lord of Light did not tell Melisandre to bring back Jon. She did that because Davos asked her to try, she had given up.

She said it in this episode it was at the will of her Red God.

At this point Thoros seems more adept at R'hllor's Magic than Mel. He's an old hat when it comes to ressurection and he seems like he'd be better at parties.

On the whole I think you should cast your vote for Thoros #2017.

There is no "magic". There is only what he allows them to do. That was kind of the point of the scene with Jon and Mel imo. She realized none of them have power, just what her god allows her to do in the moment. There is no reason to think Thoros can actually do anything for Jon.

 

[Roose Bolton]

She said it in this episode it was at the will of her Red God.


There is no "magic". There is only what he allows them to do. That was kind of the point of the scene with Jon and Mel imo. She realized none of them have power, just what her god allows her to do in the moment. There is no reason to think Thoros can actually do anything for Jon.

Ok man, you keep drinking that R'hllorist Kool Aid

 

[flickchick85]

Jon was trained to serve by Robb's side. I love you FC, but I feel like you are ignoring everything we have learned.

And there is suspension of disbelief during specific moments, and building the entire battle around it.

It's cool, I feel like you're ignoring everything we've ever seen, so we're even.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

It is though, it really is.

No seriously, even at Blackwater when Stannis was leading the charge without even a damn helmet, I was suspending disbelief that no one was able to take him out while all his men around him were getting hit with arrows. Or that none of the wildlings targeted Jon when he was walking across the courtyard of Castle Black during the battle in WotW. It happens at various points throughout every battle ep for me, but it doesn't bother me in the slightest.

Stannis rain to the walls of the city to avoid being hit with arrows, as his men held up shields to block the falling rocks and arrows. See, logic FC.

I don't know what you mean about Watchers, as Jon was targeted. It is why he was almost killed by the Thenn.

None of this compares to what happened tonight. That was something utterly special in that regard as every arrow missed him, but hit his dead brother.