Season 6, Episode 9 "Battle of the Bastards" Discussion Thread

[TJByrum]

One of my many favorite moments. I love the way Tormund pops up and looks at Jon like "Sup. We gonna kill that ****er now or what?" And there is something so cool about Tormund and Wun Wun not even hesitating to stand side by side with Jon and help him get Ramsay. Those two show more loyalty and friendship than most of the nobles south of the Wall.

And I like when Ramsay sees all three of them come over the mound of bodies and you can tell he is shocked that Jon and Tormund are still alive and about ready to **** himself.

I'm not gonna lie, I was hoping Wun Wun would pick Jon and Tormund up and start running to Winterfell with them.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

No it doesn't. Their entry into the battle does not defy the show's internal logic nor challenge suspension of belief -- like a Greek god suddenly entering and zapping the problem as in ancient Greek plays from whence the term or concept originates.

The Knights of the Vale were not suddenly introduced out of the blue nor as an improbable solution, and therefore not a deus ex machina, because their arrival was set up in four previous scenes total:

1. Littlefinger's offer to Cersei in Season 5 which entailed using Vale troops to destroy either the Boltons or Stannis at Winterfell and her authorization of it on the condition that LF assumes control as Warden of the North after Sansa is killed or captured.
2. The scene in the Vale where Littlefinger persuades Robin Arryn to help Sansa.
3. The meeting between Littlefinger and Sansa in Moletown where she is informed that the Knights are already in the North (at Moat Cailin just south of Winterfell) and ready to fight for her.
4. The letter Sansa wrote when Jon told her that their army was going to march on Winterfell anyway despite being undersized. The audience can easily and logically deduce the identity of the recipient of that letter in that desperate situation.

So why didn't they arrive before the fight started, or after Jon and the rest were killed? They arrive right before Jon dies. Them showing up isn't the eye rolling bit. When they do clearly is.

 

[Rowsdower!]

I loved this. Everything in it. Jon's determination to rip Ramsay's f***ing head off, Ramsay running like the little chickensh** that he is, Tormund and Wun-Wun rushing to Jon's side, the music, all of it. I could watch that scene over and over.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

That might be my favorite shot of the show so far.

 

[Reek]

we need a gif of tormund picking him up and saying HEY!

 

[DarthSkywalker]

That might be my favorite shot of the show so far.

I think I am going to make this my av.

 

[godisawesome]

Just checking on this, but am I right in surmising that Ramsay's plan, while effective, did in fact include slaughtering his own cavalry far more than either the number the Starks killed or indeed far more than the actual number of Stark cavalry he did wind up killing.

I mean, it takes Tormund, Wun Wun, and the rest of the infantry a while to actually arrive once they begin their charge, and there's already massive mounds of dead by that time, and the initial cavalry clash featured far more Boltons when Ramsay started team killing with his archers. Doesn't that imply that most of the Bolton arrows that killed someone must have landed in Bolton men?

Because it kind of looks like while Ramsay had a good tactical plan for wiping out the opposing army, he did so in a way that lead to his own men killing roughly half their own even when they had a 2-1 advantage and better armor and discipline than the vast majority of Jon's force. Jon's still an idiot for abdandining his plan, Sansa still had no adequately explained reason in episode to not mention the Vale letter to Jon, but Ramsay seems to pretty clearly qualify as a true butcher instead of a military commander.

 

[Reek]

 

[DACrowe]

Starks are on the move.

On that note...

 

[Reek]

 

[DarthSkywalker]

That not only explains his running ability, but the hair.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Just checking on this, but am I right in surmising that Ramsay's plan, while effective, did in fact include slaughtering his own cavalry far more than either the number the Starks killed or indeed far more than the actual number of Stark cavalry he did wind up killing.

I mean, it takes Tormund, Wun Wun, and the rest of the infantry a while to actually arrive once they begin their charge, and there's already massive mounds of dead by that time, and the initial cavalry clash featured far more Boltons when Ramsay started team killing with his archers. Doesn't that imply that most of the Bolton arrows that killed someone must have landed in Bolton men?

Because it kind of looks like while Ramsay had a good tactical plan for wiping out the opposing army, he did so in a way that lead to his own men killing roughly half their own even when they had a 2-1 advantage and better armor and discipline than the vast majority of Jon's force. Jon's still an idiot for abdandining his plan, Sansa still had no adequately explained reason in episode to not mention the Vale letter to Jon, but Ramsay seems to pretty clearly qualify as a true butcher instead of a military commander.

This bothered me, as in real life this would never happen. The Bolton men would be firing on their own. And since cavalrymen are usually of higher birth and rank, the archers might actually be shooting at their own lords.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

This bothered me, as in real life this would never happen. The Bolton men would be firing on their own. And since cavalrymen are usually of higher birth and rank, the archers might actually be shooting at their own lords.

Ramsay didn't care and he told them to do it. What would they do, not do it? They had the overwhelming odds, and by the time they were done firing, they had whittled Jon's army down to the bare bones.

 

[Marvolo]

This bothered me, as in real life this would never happen. The Bolton men would be firing on their own. And since cavalrymen are usually of higher birth and rank, the archers might actually be shooting at their own lords.

I wouldnt say never. Commanders sacrifice their soldiers all the time. Most dont do it so callously, but there no doubt have been callous foolish commanders throughout history that have done what Ramsey did.

Also, keep in mind that Ramsey doing what he did made it impossible for him to mount a defense against the Vale knights. He killed so many of his own men that he was severely outnumbered by the time the Vale knights arrived. So its just another example of Ramsay being a wild dog, and in the end he paid for it just like Roose warned him he might. It cost him his army, winterfell, his life, and ensured the extinction of House Bolton. I think thats exactlt what D&D were going for. They wanted him to ensure his defeat because he acted like a mad wild dog.

 

[Roose Bolton]

In other words, Ramsay is the Cursed Child.

 

[Marvolo]

I really wish Sansa had called Ramsay "bastard" instead of Lord Bolton. She should have said, "You're going to die tomorrow. Sleep well, bastard." If not her I feel like Jon shpuld have called him a bastard or Ramsay Snow just to really piss him off.

 

[Reek]

Bolton soldier: Our army is gone.

Ramsay: So is theirs.

Didn't understand that bit of dialogue given the vale just destroyed them.

 

[Roose Bolton]

I really wish Sansa had called Ramsay "bastard" instead of Lord Bolton. She should have said, "You're going to die tomorrow. Sleep well, bastard." If not her I feel like Jon shpuld have called him a bastard or Ramsay Snow just to really piss him off.

In general, it's weird that they never once utilised that aspect. In ADWD Ramsay brutally murdered a random man for accidentally calling him "Milord Snow" and then there was Theon's desperate begging to Stannis to never call Ramsay a Bastard. It's a massive pressure point for the character and they never really played it up, because he's an übermensch on the show.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Ramsay didn't care and he told them to do it. What would they do, not do it? They had the overwhelming odds, and by the time they were done firing, they had whittled Jon's army down to the bare bones.

Because that's probably their brothers and cousins out there, if not their nobles. Things work differently in a Mediaeval world. Or should, anyway. Certainly did a few seasons ago. The fact that they had overwhelming numbers makes it even less necessary.

This is why I am so happy that Ramsay is dead. He became the writer's favorite, and the show's own internal logic went out the window whenever he was on screen. Kill your father, the Warden of the North? No problem. Kinslaying isn't a big deal in this world as we've established with Tyrion. Even though your father had a tenuous hold on his title. Kill your noble step-mom, and half-brother? No problem. There won't be any consequences for that. The Freys take betrayal well.

You're a twenty-something bastard legitimized by a dead king no one in the North acknowledged in the first place, who murders the rightful heir to Winterfell in cold blood? No problem. It's not like the North remembers.

You want your men to shoot their own people? Sure, boss. Even though we have total numerical superiority. Wait, shouldn't we be in the castle famous for being easy to defend? No. Okay. Well, you're the boss.

I could buy one of those. But it got kind of ridiculous after a while.

 

[Reek]

lets never speak of the show north to the book north again... Winter isn't a thing in the show

 

[Marvolo]

lets never speak of the show north to the book north again... Winter isn't a thing in the show

There was a dusting of snow on the ground, and snow clouds in the sky. Is that not winter enough for you?!

 

[DarthSkywalker]

The approach shot while Ramsay was riding to meet them was rather beautiful, with the snow touched greenery.

 

[Fist of Khonshu]

So why didn't they arrive before the fight started, or after Jon and the rest were killed? They arrive right before Jon dies. Them showing up isn't the eye rolling bit. When they do clearly is.

So no one can ever be saved by someone else in a story?

If the Knights show up at the beginning, then the protagonists just completely rout Ramsay with no threat of losing nor a sense of jeopardy. There has to be some suspense and peril to make the story entertaining. If they show up too late, and all the protagonists die except Sansa, then you've rendered the Jon Snow resurrection completely pointless and negated any significance to the R+L=J reveal.

Look, I don't like the Vale saving the day either, but that's because we have absolutely no emotional connection to them -- unlike Theoden, Eomer, Eowyn and the Rohirrim at the Pelennor Fields. I also don't care for the fact that the Stark loyalists were improperly represented, and I thought that surely a couple of houses ( like the Manderlys and perhaps the eastern Flints) would show up late alongside the Vale force. I'm really puzzled that we didn't see the Manderlys since there was a casting call for a fat Northern Lord which just had to be Wyman....

 

[Reek]

Yea it's kind of like when Finn is about to die in TFA and Han shows up at the perfect time.

Then he is captured... and the resistance shows up right before they depart with their new prisoner.

 

[Fist of Khonshu]