Civil War Sharon carter A.K.A. Agent 13 - Part 1

[Rote]

It's funny how everyone has the utmost belief if the Russos until they start of favor someone who doesn't count among their faves.

It's just personally I don't see Russos very much interested in Sharon. They made Cap, Bucky, Widow in TWS so much better, than they were in MCU beforehand, and even Falcon was portrayed great for his first appearance in these movies, but Sharon was just blunt. They could hint the reason, why Cap should like her aside from her pretty face, why she's so special, but they did nothing, only made him feel betrayed by her spying on him. And in the end Natasha must tell him to call her. Telling, not showing. Like in AoU characters kept saying about attraction between Widow and Bruce, but the audience couldn't see it. You couldn't make the start of romance or even the friendship more boring. Compare it with Cap meeting Falcon. Even in this first scene we saw the chemistry and the reasons why they can become good friends. So I assume Russos bothered with Sharon just because they are obligated to give him love interest, not because they are interested.
And I seriously doubt that it's all about screentime. Good characters can shine even in the trailer, even in cameo. They made people love Bucky with actually only one scene: the chair. That's all it required. That was enough. Pretty much the rest time he was mindless killing machine, and nobody was invested in him much in TFA. So why people should like or fave Sharon so far, when they saw nothing interesting about her?

I changed the link to one with an actual quote.

I'll be grateful if you'd point out the actual minute in this 20, then I'll get to it faster.

The only person with a right to much time is Steve. Anyone else is expendable.

I'd actually like a Captain America franchise about Captain America and supporting characters that contribute to his development

You contradict yourself.

And yes, that included Sharon. But Sharon's involvement benefits Steve's development, whereas Widow's involvement mostly benefits her. As was the case in TWS.

What can Sharon contribute to Steve's character, that couldn't Widow? Be the love interest and make Steve an idiot in love, who can't let go of Peggy, so he finds the closest replacement? Cool contribution. But not in everyone's opinion.

Yeah, but Cannavale didn't talk up him being a neutral party/having his own goals/after Bucky for reasons did he?

I think, it's just them promoting BP for his solo movie. Not necessary means that he'll get much part. Serkis was in AoU for a very small role, but was talked about pretty much. You can be right, of course, but for now I don't see solid evidence.

And many sources still have it that the movie is known inhouse as Avengers 2.5, and that it is setting up Infinity War and much of phase 3.

Then I missed something. Who else, aside from Evans, said that it's more avengers movie than Cap's? Mackie doesn't count, he said the same about TWS.
And again, setting up IW doesn't necessary mean that it's not Cap's movie anymore. People, who saw the trailer, all said that it feels very Cap-centered.

Basically my point is that if people want to talk about how this is a Cap film then its odd how they're all for their other faves being in the movie whether or not it has anything to do with Steve, and calling Sharon shoehorned because it is out of line for Steve to have a romance in his own movie.

Again, because these people think that such love interest will screw up Cap's character, not contribute in him.

I was told that according to the WeAreWakanda site that Boseman filmed 6-8 weeks. Around the same as EVC, a bit more than Renner and Olsen and less RDJ, Mackie, Scarlett and Stan and oh yeah Chris who strangely was on set the most. BP's character in action scenes though lens itself to stunt doubles like Spidey, War Machine, Ant-Man and Iron Man.

Ok, thank you, good to know.

 

[Voltron]

Rote. You and your biased double standards; one rule for other characters, another rule for Sharon. You hate Sharon because you're a Steggy shipper.

 

[BullMcGiveny]

Oh and the phase was friends, teammates and adversaries.

Well that's a pretty broad group.

I mean they're all friends, teammates and adversaries of Barton, too.

He knows 2/3rds of those far more than he knows Sharon Carter and her portrayer was on set as long as or longer than any one not named RDJ and we all know how much more important Sharon is to The Civil War than Tony Stark what with her only significant contribution in the comics being executing Steve when brainwashed.

When it comes to Civil War, maybe. When it comes to Sharon, she's more important to the entirity of Cap's canon.

And this might be might be where it's chalked up to preferences, but the less the movie follows Civil War, a subpar storyline that doesn't especially focus on Steve by himself, the better.

I mean, Widow, Panther weren't the least bit more important than Sharon. Lang, Barton and Vision weren't even in it. Massacred by Wanda. I wonder if we'll see her massacring them in the movie.

 

[Voltron]

Why would you want Sharon to wear that? Her breasts could easily fall out of the top during a fight!

Where did I say that I wanted Sharon to wear that?? Where, pray tell? Also, why haven't you answered my previous questions?

 

[BullMcGiveny]

I
I'll be grateful if you'd point out the actual minute in this 20, then I'll get to it faster.

It's 20 minutes in, near the end of the video. You can see Evans describing Civil War, too.

You contradict yourself.

No, I want a movie about Cap. I want the supporting characters helping develop Steve's character, not being there as cross-promotion or as fanservice.

Then I missed something. Who else, aside from Evans, said that it's more avengers movie than Cap's? Mackie doesn't count, he said the same about TWS.

Scarjo, for one. Oslen, too, I think.

 

[SwiftFox]

Everyone keeps pointing to Widow as the double agent. I wonder if it's really Sharon?

 

[TalismanRing]

Well that's a pretty broad group.

I mean they're all friends, teammates and adversaries of Barton, too.

Clint just thinks he has friends and teammates.

That Steve knows and is connected to people that (most of) the audience already knows and cares about that can fill out that broad spectrum of characters is an extremely valuable asset that enriches his films. It's much better than say TDW with a supporting cast gets filled out by his (pallid) love interests friend/staff and her intern.

When it comes to Civil War, maybe. When it comes to Sharon, she's more important to the entirity of Cap's canon.

That importance comes down to a matter of perspective and preference as well.

 

[TalismanRing]

None of them said it was more an Avengers movie than a Cap movie but rather that it also served as a build up to the next Avengers movies which all the movies upcoming will in some way be they BP, Captain Marvel, Dr Strange or Thor Ragnarok. That doesn't mean they won't serve their main character. TWS managed that so well that Cap became the easily the second most popular character in the MCU.

 

[BullMcGiveny]

That Steve knows and is connected to people that (most of) the audience already knows and cares about that can fill out that broad spectrum of characters is an extremely valuable asset that enriches his films. It's much better than say TDW with a supporting cast gets filled out by his (pallid) love interests friend/staff and her intern.

With that thinking we'd never get Falcon.

But sure, by all means, let's just have all the movies being some version of the Avengers with who slightly gets more focus being the difference.

 

[TalismanRing]

Everyone keeps pointing to Widow as the double agent. I wonder if it's really Sharon?

Considering that she works for the CIA it would make sense and it would also keep from making Tony look like a fool for trusting and being fooled by Nat - again. It could also be Vision since he's very much a mystery and work in progress. BP is mystery as well but to the extent he's his own man - but would be spy and switch pretended loyalties. Maybe Clint if his family was at stack?

Other than those characters I can't see who else it could be. I couldn't buy it being Rhodey, Sam, Bucky, Wanda, Scott or Peter (switch sides yes - spy no)

 

[BullMcGiveny]

None of them said it was more an Avengers movie than a Cap movie but rather that it also served as a build up to the next Avengers movies which all the movies upcoming will in some way be they BP, Captain Marvel, Dr Strange or Thor Ragnarok. That doesn't mean they won't serve their main character. TWS managed that so well that Cap became the easily the second most popular character in the MCU.

When the question is 'with all the characters involved is this still a Captain America movie or has it become more of an Avengers movie?' and the answer is 'it's setting up Infinity War' that doesn't bode well.

 

[TalismanRing]

With that thinking we'd never get Falcon.

But sure, by all means, let's just have all the movies being some version of the Avengers with who slightly gets more focus being the difference.

Yer we got Falcon and Bucky while also managing to have more Nat and Fury with most of the focus being on Steve - but you still complained it wasn't a Cap movie because there wasn't enough Sharon.

In this movie the only person you're still complaining about not getting enough screen time is Sharon and yet we're getting more Sharon. EVC was on set as long or longer than most of these other actors. So what's the issue? That she wasn't the only person on set aside from Evans? That their relationship isn't the most important story in the film? That not everyone is looking forward to more Sharon and more EVC?

 

[BullMcGiveny]

Yer we got Falcon and Bucky while also managing to have more Nat and Fury with most of the focus being on Steve - but you still complained it wasn't a Cap movie because there wasn't enough Sharon.

In this movie the only person you're still complaining about not getting enough screen time is Sharon and yet we're getting more Sharon. EVC was on set as long or longer than most of these other actors. So what's the issue? That she wasn't the only person on set aside from Evans? That their relationship isn't the most important story in the film? That not everyone forward to more Sharon and more EVC?

I complained it wasn't a Cap movie because the Cap elements were secondary. Because Bucky was an extended cameo, because the main villain's enmity was with Fury as opposed to Cap. Because Sam was a sidekick who randomly got involved as opposed to a partner. And because Cap is there to help Natasha's development for a lot of the movie as opposed to the other way around.

The issue is that people tout how this is Cap's movie but they want Hawkeye, Wanda, Black Widow whether or not the presence might be contributive to Steve's development.

You'll see posts on this board about Wanda and Vision's relationship, or Wanda being Widow's protege, or Wanda needing to mourn Pietro, but nothing about why Wanda's involvement benefits Steve's development in any way.

But add Sharon, and by implication a plot involving Steve, and people go up in vapors.

 

[TalismanRing]

We'll never agree on this. Cap was the driving force of the entire story in TWS and every character's main arc was in relation to their interaction and relationship with Steve and or Steve's decisions. Even Fury's interactions with Pierce at the end are Steve driven since it's Steve's decision and plan to bring it all down. That Pierce has a relationship with Bucky or that Nat has a relationship with Fury doesn't in anyway undercut that their main relationship and story arc involve Steve. But to make every scene Steve centered, to make every action only in relation to Steve is to create cardboard lifeless characters.

Falcon was introduced beautifully, so much he became an instant fan favorite and someone fans wanted to see more of instead of feeling like he was shoved down their throats an wanted to see less of.

Everyone wants to see more of their favorite, including you but just because they want to see those relationships and arcs happen doesn't mean they will or that if they do those scene won't just be a couple of minutes long and subservient to a greater arc. We can still have smaller character moments and interactions between characters that aren't Steve related in a Cap movie. That doesn't make it an Avengers and not a Cap movie. When Loki had a fight with Odin or when Jane talked to Darcy or Selvig it wasn't any less a Thor movie. When Pepper was kidnapped and tortured and Tony wasn't on screen it wasn't less of an Iron Man movie. When Happy followed Killian's guy it wasn't less of an Iron Man film. And not because they're IM comic supporting characters.

In the comics Steve has had long and strong relationships with the Avengers characters as much or at times more than his supporting cast in solo books and they often spill over from one to another. The MCU is an interconnected universe and one of Steve's main qualities is his leadership role so it makes sense that he has a team to lead in a solo movie. That doesn't make it less of a Cap film than if it was a Dimension Z Cap film where he's on his own. (which I'd also love to see)

 

[BullMcGiveny]

Falcon was introduced beautifully, so much he became an instant fan favorite and someone fans wanted to see more of instead of feeling like he was shoved down their throats an wanted to see less of.

His introduction is a huge contrived coincidence. He's a random guy Cap meet who just so happens to be a special forces airman, who just so happens to be willing to drop everything and fight SHIELD a couple of days later.

It works because of Mackie, honestly. He was able to turn tin into gold. Another actor might not have.

Everyone wants to see more of their favorite, including you but just because they want to see those relationships and arcs happen doesn't mean they will or that if they do those scene won't just be a couple of minutes long and subservient to a greater arc. We can still have smaller character moments and interactions between characters that aren't Steve related in a Cap movie. That doesn't make it an Avengers and not a Cap movie. When Loki had a fight with Odin or when Jane talked to Darcy or Selvig it wasn't any less a Thor movie. When Pepper was kidnapped and tortured and Tony wasn't on screen it wasn't less of an Iron Man movie. When Happy followed Killian's guy it wasn't less of an Iron Man film. And not because they're IM comic supporting characters.

If you asked people before Thor come out what they wanted with Jane, would they have talked about how they wanted her to talk to Selvig?

In the comics Steve has had long and strong relationships with the Avengers characters as much or at times more than his supporting cast in solo books and they often spill over from one to another.

That's the case with every superhero to be an Avenger. Yet Cap's movies are the only solos that have to host Avengers.

The MCU is an interconnected universe and one of Steve's main qualities is his leadership role so it makes sense that he has a team to lead in a solo movie. That doesn't make it less of a Cap film than if it was a Dimension Z Cap film where he's on his own. (which I'd also love to see)

One of, speaking quite broadly. I'd say his main quality is his idealism and integrity.

 

[Mike5575]

That's because she was being portrayed in TWS very weak, was quickly defeated by Rumlow,

Oh yes, because we all know that in contrast, Widow would have easily beat Rumlow's ass. Actually, no we don't know that. Falcon is a soldier, that didn't save him from being tossed around like a rag doll. All that we can say about Sharon is that her aim is dead accurate as she would have killed Crossbones ad it not been for that bullet-proof glass.

hasn't any superpowers or even impressive fight skills, so people legitimately think that she's shoehorned in team Cap only to be the love interest,

Black Widow has two glocks and a tazer(Deputy Sheriff Superpowers). Please don't get me started about how useless SC is when Black Widow is just a mere mortal with no powerful weaponry. Heck, at least Hawkeye has exploding arrows. If people can suspend belief and believe that Natasha isn't completely useless in a fight when her teamates are IM and Thor, than surely they can do the same thing for Sharon. Any edge Widow has in fighting skill over Sharon is negligible in comparison to the vast power differences between the powerless heroes and the god-like powers of Wanda and The Vision.

when they want to see Wanda instead, who is far more interesting as a character.

I guess you're forgetting this is a Captain America movie. Wanda is more interesting than Pepper Potts, but I would want to see Pepper in an Iron Man movie, and not Wanda. Besides, it's already been exlained by Lizzie Olson that Wanda is a wild card in this movie. I wonder, were people complaining about Falcon being "shoehorned" in this movie, being in the film instead of Hawkeye? Oh, wait, nobody cares about Hawkeye.

 

[DanielFM]

Black Widow has two glocks and a tazer(Deputy Sheriff Superpowers). Please don't get me started about how useless SC is when Black Widow is just a mere mortal with no powerful weaponry. Heck, at least Hawkeye has exploding arrows. If people can suspend belief and believe that Natasha isn't completely useless in a fight when her teamates are IM and Thor, than surely they can do the same thing for Sharon. Any edge Widow has in fighting skill over Sharon is negligible in comparison to the vast power differences between the powerless heroes and the god-like powers of Wanda and The Vision.

Oh yeah, that's why Bruce Lee and a 10 years old child starting kung-fu lessons can be considered exactly the same. A whole life of crazily intensive training accounts for nothing.

 

[SwiftFox]

Can we have a thread that is just to compare characters and complain about who's worse than who so we can keep the fan threads clear?

 

[Rote]

Rote. You and your biased double standards; one rule for other characters, another rule for Sharon. You hate Sharon because you're a Steggy shipper.

You forgot ScarletAmerica, Romanogers and Steria. Oh, and Stucky, obviously. There were so many romantic things between them, that Staron will never be able to overpower: they're destined to meet again after so many years, Bucky is the only person on the planet for Steve with "shared life experience", Steve's ready to die, but not hurt him, saves him with the power of love, Bucky can't recall his own name, but "But I knew him" after 70 years of intense brainwashing... Oh, yes, and confirmed by Rumlow: "Your Bucky"t: Clearly he didn't stare in vain at Bucky in chair with such intense glare. Must have thought: "I can see what's happening and they don't have a clue!"
Ah, well, and Steve/his hand ship is also much more preferable. At least it doesn't make him a hopeless lovestruck girl, who can't move on from Peggy.

It's 20 minutes in, near the end of the video. You can see Evans describing Civil War, too.

Thank you, but I didn't hear anything new. She said only, that her role will be "pretty important", not "crucial". We already knew that, she can't be unimportant as Steve's friend, and again, this notion is pretty relative concept.

Scarjo, for one. Oslen, too, I think.

Quotes?


Mike5575, all this "if or then" for now are just fantasies and wishful thinking. The fact remains: Sharon didn't show anything at least a bit impressive. Even the guy, who refused to comply with Rumlow's order made more impact, because he didn't have a gun, was just office worker and clearly terrified, and yet showed much courage.
And about Wanda: well in MCU for now she has much more interactions with Steve, than Sharon, he's her mentor. And has been for the whole year, that passed in CW after the AoU, as we can assume. Many people prefer Wanda with Steve, rather than the most boring and generic girl in the MCU.

 

[Mike5575]

Oh yeah, that's why Bruce Lee and a 10 years old child starting kung-fu lessons can be considered exactly the same. A whole life of crazily intensive training accounts for nothing.

Put Bruce Lee against some random Asgardian who has never trained in his life, and tell me how that find would end up? 10/10 times Bruce Lee would lose. Training is irrelavent if your strongest attacks can't even hurt your opponent.

 

[Minxie]

Mike5575, all this "if or then" for now are just fantasies and wishful thinking. The fact remains: Sharon didn't show anything at least a bit impressive. Even the guy, who refused to comply with Rumlow's order made more impact, because he didn't have a gun, was just office worker and clearly terrified, and yet showed much courage.
And about Wanda: well in MCU for now she has much more interactions with Steve, than Sharon, he's her mentor. And has been for the whole year, that passed in CW after the AoU, as we can assume. Many people prefer Wanda with Steve, rather than the most boring and generic girl in the MCU.

There's a lot of projecting going on here. You personally not caring for Sharon doesn't mean that everyone else thinks she's worthless too. I would bet most think she's a perfectly nice girl who displayed great courage and integrity against Rumlow, being the first of the Shield agents to make a move which emboldened the other loyal agents to follow her lead, and that she was very cute in the "coffee?" scene. Considering she wasn't even originally going to be in Cap 2 and Cap 3 was likely always intended to be the movie where she would be introduced in earnest, I'm gonna predict that the majority of people who watch these movies are not going to have any objections to her and Steve dating. Of course, some in this fandom have already made up their minds about her, I'm sure, so she could be all kinds of charming and badass in Cap 3 but they'll still talk smack about her before ever admitting their dismissal of her was premature.

Really, some of the objections to Sharon in this forum seem incredibly over the top to me, like y'all will just be so nauseated having to watch her, especially with Steve. Go outside, get some fresh air, take a nap, it's not that deep.

 

[InternetPeople]

"Back then they didn't want me, now I'm hot they all on me" - Captain America

 

[Suzanne78]

Wow. This thread, y'all...

I've said this elsewhere, but I really want a one-shot set before TWS where it's Sharon disposing a ton of HYDRA goons while she lived next door to Steve, all the while he was unaware of her badassery. It'd be hilarious her going full-on ninja on a bunch of stooges, she calls Hill and Fury to help dispose of the bodies, and she has to deal with Steve's adorable cluelessness.

What? Just me, then?

I've wanted to write it out as a one-shot, but my own writing's pretty much taking up all my creative energy

 

[Voltron]

You forgot ScarletAmerica, Romanogers and Steria. Oh, and Stucky, obviously. There were so many romantic things between them, that Staron will never be able to overpower: they're destined to meet again after so many years, Bucky is the only person on the planet for Steve with "shared life experience", Steve's ready to die, but not hurt him, saves him with the power of love, Bucky can't recall his own name, but "But I knew him" after 70 years of intense brainwashing... Oh, yes, and confirmed by Rumlow: "Your Bucky"t: Clearly he didn't stare in vain at Bucky in chair with such intense glare. Must have thought: "I can see what's happening and they don't have a clue!"
Ah, well, and Steve/his hand ship is also much more preferable. At least it doesn't make him a hopeless lovestruck girl, who can't move on from Peggy.

Sharon to Steve is like Lois Lane to Superman, Mary Jane/Gwen to Spiderman, Jean Grey to Cyclops, and Catwoman to Batman. M&M in an interview have said that they have wanted to bring Sharon to the Cap franchise since before the first Cap movie.

 

[Voltron]

There's a lot of projecting going on here. You personally not caring for Sharon doesn't mean that everyone else thinks she's worthless too. I would bet most think she's a perfectly nice girl who displayed great courage and integrity against Rumlow, being the first of the Shield agents to make a move which emboldened the other loyal agents to follow her lead, and that she was very cute in the "coffee?" scene. Considering she wasn't even originally going to be in Cap 2 and Cap 3 was likely always intended to be the movie where she would be introduced in earnest, I'm gonna predict that the majority of people who watch these movies are not going to have any objections to her and Steve dating. Of course, some in this fandom have already made up their minds about her, I'm sure, so she could be all kinds of charming and badass in Cap 3 but they'll still talk smack about her before ever admitting their dismissal of her was premature.

Really, some of the objections to Sharon in this forum seem incredibly over the top to me, like y'all will just be so nauseated having to watch her, especially with Steve. Go outside, get some fresh air, take a nap, it's not that deep.

Thank you! But according to M&M they wanted to introduce Sharon since way before the first Cap movie.