Should Veidt live or die?

[Sandman138]

it doesn't. your point?

That authority does not equal intrinsic virtue.

 

[Gilpesh]

That authority does not equal intrinsic virtue.

And the ability to deem civilians in another country a viable target to be murdered to end a war.

Mysterio is acting a lot like Rorschach right now. Deeming Veidt a villain for the exact thing his hero Truman did.

Now where's Manhattan when you need him?

 

[waylayer]

Clearly. When Jon says that line "In the end? Nothing ever ends, Adrien." and Viedt looks at him horrified, we see it.

Jon leaves Adrian's presence after this line. We don't actually see Adrian's direct reaction to Jon's line, only read what he says. The next and final shot of Adrian is of him turned from where Jon was standing before he disappeared, and Adrian looking back at that spot. The look on his face may be concern, doubt, guilt, or maybe a combination of the three, but in my opinion, it is not horror.

On another note, I'm just going to throw this wacky idea out there. Maybe Veidt's death was included in the final script submitted to the studio to help ensure it would get green-lit and still have their support? The studios had a tough time buying into the idea anyway, so maybe the death was included to help sway them. Perhaps Snyder can either decide to not shoot that scene later, or shoot it and maybe convince the studio later to leave it out of the final film, or include it as an "alternate ending" on the DVD to throw them a bone? Much stranger things have happened in the history of film. If that ends up being the case, we can all have a hardy laugh looking back at this.

 

[Mysterio]

That authority does not equal intrinsic virtue.

i gave you an answer regarding our specific government system and how it derives its authority, since that was the question you asked. your coming back with a question of how that matters to citizens of another country who were under a different system of government that had a different system of legitimacy and authority is silly and illogical. the answer is it doesn't matter; it's apples and oranges.

 

[Overman27pj]

Mysterio,

Seriously, I have to believe that you are purposely trying to be stupid here or stirring the pot. No one can be this utterly lost on a point. I am in disbelief.

 

[Watson]

He's got to live. And they have to make it absolutely clear that at the very end, the audience understands that Rorschach's journal ends up in revealing everything to the world.

One issue with this is that audiences may not be that clever, and ZS will have bash them over the head with the idea that the word gets out, Veidt gets caught, etc. (shown visually, possibly in a montage with voice-over, of course).

But yeah, killing Veidt just ruins everything. And I really, really, really want that scene where Dr. Manhattan says those parting words before vanishing.

Exactly. If he dies nothing in the epilogue of the book makes sense. Not SS and Nite Owl in hiding, not the Journal being at the magazine. Veidt's gotta live...his fate is within the audiences imagination.

 

[Sandman138]

i gave you an answer regarding our specific government system and how it derives its authority, since that was the question you asked. your coming back with a question of how that matters to citizens of another country who were under a different system of government that had a different system of legitimacy and authority is silly and illogical. the answer is it doesn't matter; it's apples and oranges.

No it's not because Truman's actions effected a group of people who did not give him the authority to drop a bomb on them. The same way Veidt's did. You're taking a relative scale and treating it like an absolute.

 

[Sandman138]

Jon leaves Adrian's presence after this line. We don't actually see Adrian's direct reaction to Jon's line, only read what he says. The next and final shot of Adrian is of him turned from where Jon was standing before he disappeared, and Adrian looking back at that spot. The look on his face may be concern, doubt, guilt, or maybe a combination of the three, but in my opinion, it is not horror.

This has been established.

 

[logansoldcigar]

because the state/president - our system of government, a representative constitutional republic - is given that authority by the will and permission of the governed. that isn't the case for some guy deciding to wear a costume and fight crime - or save humanity in his own twisted way.

That isnt always the case though, is it?

Truman was never elected as president(first time round). FDR was. and FDR was elected 3 times with 3 different VP's, suggesting that the people didnt vote for the others on the ticket, but for the man himself

Churchill wasdnt elected by the people: he was appointed by Parliament. John major wasnt elected for his firsat term, the incumbent retired. Our Current PM has never won a general election. he succeeded when the incumbent resigned.

i fully appreciate that these may be within the conditions that are allowed for within the rules. Its not something i agree with (that it should be allowed), but they were not elected as such: and as VP, Truman had so little authority, he didnt even know about the manhatten project, he were only told about that after he got the top job.

 

[StorminNorman]

Personally I would rather have Adrien Veidt make such a decision than any elected politician.

 

[Mysterio]

That isnt always the case though, is it?

Truman was never elected as president(first time round). FDR was. and FDR was elected 3 times with 3 different VP's, suggesting that the people didnt vote for the others on the ticket, but for the man himself

that's irrelevant. the office of the president and vice president is established by the constitution and granted by the will and consent of the governed. equally, the line of succession is also established by the constitution (and later clarified through the 25th amendment). presidents are elected via the electoral college anyway, and not by popular vote, so "people didn't vote for the others on the ticket" is immaterial. the offices, our governmental system, the branches of our government, are all granted by the will and consent of the governed, regardless if the holder of the office is appointed or elected.

 

[Motown Marvel]

truman nukes japan to stop a war.

veidt nukes NY to prevent an imminent war.

essentially the same actions done for the same purposes.

you cant say one is right and one is wrong simply due to the persons status. status doesnt define right and wrong.

 

[Gilpesh]

Mysterio. You need to stop jumping all over the place. First you say the president can do that cause he has the consent of the governed... then you say he can cause he was elected by the electoral college AKA not the governed. And that is still all cool for him to do.

Stop just disagreeing to be a dick and actually join the conversation.

 

[sad lieutenant]

truman nukes japan to stop a war.

veidt nukes NY to prevent an imminent war.

essentially the same actions done for the same purposes.

you cant say one is right and one is wrong simply due to the persons status. status doesnt define right and wrong.

It doesn't get much clearer than that!

 

[logansoldcigar]

He's got to live. And they have to make it absolutely clear that at the very end, the audience understands that Rorschach's journal ends up in revealing everything to the world.

One issue with this is that audiences may not be that clever, and ZS will have bash them over the head with the idea that the word gets out, Veidt gets caught, etc. (shown visually, possibly in a montage with voice-over, of course).

But that isnt made clear in the book. Its implied that Seymour might pick up RS's journal, no guarantees, then you have the stretch of it being believed.
From there you have to believe that an investigation into a journal that ends with a case about people hunting down the former masked adventurer's leading to them being able to pin all the deaths on the worlds smartest man.

Moore lets us decide for ourselves what we think will happen

 

[sad lieutenant]

But that isnt made clear in the book. Its implied that Seymour might pick up RS's journal, no guarantees, then you have the stretch of it being believed.
...

Moore lets us decide for ourselves what we think will happen

Yes... And it is my hope that Snyder (and WB!) will do the same. This is the whole rub, isn't it? Hollywood seems allergic to question marks... Why is that?

 

[logansoldcigar]

Ive always pout it down to 2 things:
1) pandering to those that see the world in black and white. "he cant get away with it, he just cant". never mind that in this case, he may spend of thwe rest opf his life feeling guilty as to the cost of whast he did, unless he is clearly seen to be punished, they wont be happy.

2) they simply underestimate the intelligence of the audience in the largest single market

 

[Lobster Charlie]

I don't necessarily believe there will be an investigation--but if Seymour DOES put the journal entry into the crank file, the truth will be exposed to a certain degree, albeit to a limited audience.

All the same, Veidt needs to live and we must end with Seymour at least looking like he'll pick up the book. It'll have the audiences talking about this when the lights come back on.

 

[WalterKovacs]

im not sure if this was asked or not, but if snyder is suoper gung-ho for having it be frame-for-frame from teh book, then it seems that at the very least hed keep in a crucial plot element like veidt living. if the man is as fetishistic as he says he is, to the point where he wants every little detail that the fans love to be in there, it seems like hed let veidt live, and keep the alien in lieu of the laser.

 

[Mysterio]

Mysterio. You need to stop jumping all over the place. First you say the president can do that cause he has the consent of the governed... then you say he can cause he was elected by the electoral college AKA not the governed. And that is still all cool for him to do.

Stop just disagreeing to be a dick and actually join the conversation.

although i have absolutely no respect for you or your opinion, i'm going to clear up something your tiny mind is unable to grasp. consent of the governed was an answer to how the president has his authority - it is granted and established by the constitution, which was ratified by the states through the representatives elected by the people. our governmental system exists through the will and consent of the governed. that system includes the electoral college. what part of representative constitutional republic do you not understand?

again, the authors are trying to equate Truman's action with Veidt's. that's a simplistic, naive view that apparently many here prescribe to. the differences between the two tower over any base-level similarities that an anti-war, anti-nuke, moral relativist would embrace. it is not an apples to apples comparison.

 

[Gilpesh]

I know how are government works. And I don't see where it says the elected 'by the people' politicians are allowed to kill civilians and call it alright.

Oh and you didn't have to put the respect line in there. It was already evident as the fact I have answered your question a million times in this thread and presented the answer...

Which you chose to ignore. So I am just going to call that your way of saying that you are wrong.

Also, funny how you'll go as low to call my mind tiny when I've been able to see a connection that is clear as day and you're trying everything to not see it.

And... your mind has to be tiny to praise an action that saved just American lives... where Veidt saved lives of people all over the globe and you condemn it.

I think the Bill O'Reilly of the Hype would at least be able to agree that there is some similiarity... but you still shove fingers in your ears and yell LA LA LA.

 

[Sandman138]

although i have absolutely no respect for you or your opinion, i'm going to clear up something your tiny mind is unable to grasp. consent of the governed was an answer to how the president has his authority - it is granted and established by the constitution, which was ratified by the states through the representatives elected by the people. our governmental system exists through the will and consent of the governed. that system includes the electoral college. what part of representative constitutional republic do you not understand?

again, the authors are trying to equate Truman's action with Veidt's. that's a simplistic, naive view that apparently many here prescribe to. the differences between the two tower over any base-level similarities that an anti-war, anti-nuke, moral relativist would embrace. it is not an apples to apples comparison.

So was The Blitz a heroic action?

 

[brobdingnag]

I know how are government works..

Apparently not.

 

[brobdingnag]

So was The Blitz a heroic action?

Heroism has nothing to do with war. Either you totally defeat the enemy, or they totally defeat you. You are either willing to do whatever it takes to win or you are not.

 

[Gilpesh]

Apparently not.

Yes. Cause two words proves how much you know... no wait it just makes you an ass.

For some reason, this thread just has to attract all the arrogant "LA LA LA, can't hear you" posters.