Comics So JMS and Joey Q know they screwed up...

[SpideyInATree]

So...if we start up topics about how Joey Q and JMS sucks and they always will, and then run and hide every time someone tries to debate with us, that'll make you happy?

Please.

There have been a dozen or so Iron Spidey threads popping up over the last week in support of a costume that roughly 70% of the posters on this board hate. Then, when the people behind the changes (in costume and character) admit that they screwed up, all their little lap-dog supporters run off and refuse to comment? What does that make them? Cowards. No way around it.

Where is Iron Spidy (the poster) nowadays? Where is Kainedamo? Where is Won'08? They all seem to appear with some asanine topic about how JMS is a Genius or the "Other" ruled or some such crap, and then they are gone. Now that the professionals have admitted that the ideas they've been spewing for months are utter crap, all the trolls have returned underground. That's what I'm saying. Did I call you by name? No. I have nothing against you, even though you have a freakin' mad-on for me. You post here regardless of whether or not anyone likes you. That is annoying, but it is also to be commended.

I'm tired of people not having the balls to stand up for what they feel. Some people are such mindless slaves to marvel, that I'm sure they'll be in here soon talking about how they don't like "The Other" anymore, simply because JMS and Joey Q said it was crap. It's going to happen. Just wait and see. People will change their tunes and start embracing whatever else they are spoon-fed. Proof that they didn't form an opinion of their own on the story, they just believed the hype and bought into it. That makes them mindless.

As for your "Joey C is EIC and there's nothing we can do about it" crap, you need to stall that s***. If you really believe tha there is nothing that you can do, then you are spineless. You want to get rid of him, then vote with your wallet! Quit buying New Avengers or Whatever book he's hyping that maybe doesn't deserve the praise. There's always something you can do! Buying books you despise and going along with things you disagree with is never the way to be, man.I don't like the direction of ASM or FNSM, so guess what? I'm dropping them. That's right. Marvel is losing 6 bucks and some change every month until I start buying those books again. Will that get Joey Q to resign and turn Marvel over to someone with more respect for the characters? No. What if everyone did that, though? What if people quit incessantly b****ing about the books they buy, and just quit buying them when they stopped liking them? Change would follow.

So, if I offended you....tough. I'm not here to be liked. I'm not aiming for you. I'm not sitting here saying "Let's hit Spideyinatree right between the eyes". I'm simply pointing out things that are true about certain posters and their behaviors. If you don't lime it, then I'm sorry.

And no, enjoying the current stories doesn't make you less of a fan. Still, you should be able to tell us why you enjoyed tham and what you thought was so great about them. If you just like the books because the writer/artist/publisher says you should, then, yeah, I'd say that makes you less of a fan. I'd say it makes you a tool. (not saying you are)

So, there. That's my rebuttle. As for educating these "worthless, mindless cowards", I can only calmly ask them why they like books and ask them their thoughts on things so many times before I begin to remember that old saying:

"You can't teach those who refuse to listen".

So, you're upset because these guys make threads that you don't agree with? Now a nice debate is great. All I'm trying to say is: Is it really necessary to insult people all the time? I don't know your entire history with those other posters that you mentioned. Maybe they insulted you first.

But I'm also pointing at those posters too. Not everyone is so innocent here in these forums.

And I know you didn't point out my name. But a few other posters HAVE pointed out my name into a "group" that I'm not really a part of. No, I'm not enjoying something simply because I'm told to. I enjoy things because it's how I feel. But I'm also not going to let myself be alienated here because I'm not saying, "I'm not reading Spider-Man comics anymore until they do what I want". Maybe that's how you feel. And others feel.

But I don't. Like I said, I'm different than a lot of you guys on these forums. I don't take things so seriously. Spider-Man is a comic book character and I don't like EVERY THING that's written in every Spider-Man book. There are things that irk me and things I dislike. But just simply because I dislike a few things doesn't mean I'm going to give up on the character.

I'm a Spider-Man fan. Have been since I was 8 years old. I like reading Spider-Man, through the good times and the bad. But just because I dislike a few things doesn't mean I'm going to give up the book.

Maybe you, and other posters, want to campaign and not read the book. You guys do what you have to do. But I love Spider-Man too much to give up the book simply because I thought Reginald Hudlin's portion of The Other was a disgrace to comic books. Or because Sins Past was such a horrible, horrible idea. Just set backs and lessons that need to be learned by future creators that things in the past should be left there.

But the entire point is, we're all Spider-Man fans. We're all comic book fans. You'd think that we'd really all get along fairly well. But that's not the case, unfortunately, and because one guy thinks Spider-Man's suit is awful and the other things its awesome....does it really call for each of us to be so condescending and hateful? Neither side is wrong when they state their opinions. Yet a small debate about a fictional character we all love turns into giant flame wars of he said, she said. And nobody comes out the wiser either.

 

[Herr Logan]

So...if we start up topics about how Joey Q and JMS sucks and they always will, and then run and hide every time someone tries to debate with us, that'll make you happy?

Please.

There have been a dozen or so Iron Spidey threads popping up over the last week in support of a costume that roughly 70% of the posters on this board hate. Then, when the people behind the changes (in costume and character) admit that they screwed up, all their little lap-dog supporters run off and refuse to comment? What does that make them? Cowards. No way around it.

Where is Iron Spidy (the poster) nowadays? Where is Kainedamo? Where is Won'08? They all seem to appear with some asanine topic about how JMS is a Genius or the "Other" ruled or some such crap, and then they are gone. Now that the professionals have admitted that the ideas they've been spewing for months are utter crap, all the trolls have returned underground. That's what I'm saying. Did I call you by name? No. I have nothing against you, even though you have a freakin' mad-on for me. You post here regardless of whether or not anyone likes you. That is annoying, but it is also to be commended.

I'm tired of people not having the balls to stand up for what they feel. Some people are such mindless slaves to marvel, that I'm sure they'll be in here soon talking about how they don't like "The Other" anymore, simply because JMS and Joey Q said it was crap. It's going to happen. Just wait and see. People will change their tunes and start embracing whatever else they are spoon-fed. Proof that they didn't form an opinion of their own on the story, they just believed the hype and bought into it. That makes them mindless.

As for your "Joey C is EIC and there's nothing we can do about it" crap, you need to stall that s***. If you really believe tha there is nothing that you can do, then you are spineless. You want to get rid of him, then vote with your wallet! Quit buying New Avengers or Whatever book he's hyping that maybe doesn't deserve the praise. There's always something you can do! Buying books you despise and going along with things you disagree with is never the way to be, man.I don't like the direction of ASM or FNSM, so guess what? I'm dropping them. That's right. Marvel is losing 6 bucks and some change every month until I start buying those books again. Will that get Joey Q to resign and turn Marvel over to someone with more respect for the characters? No. What if everyone did that, though? What if people quit incessantly b****ing about the books they buy, and just quit buying them when they stopped liking them? Change would follow.

So, if I offended you....tough. I'm not here to be liked. I'm not aiming for you. I'm not sitting here saying "Let's hit Spideyinatree right between the eyes". I'm simply pointing out things that are true about certain posters and their behaviors. If you don't lime it, then I'm sorry.

And no, enjoying the current stories doesn't make you less of a fan. Still, you should be able to tell us why you enjoyed tham and what you thought was so great about them. If you just like the books because the writer/artist/publisher says you should, then, yeah, I'd say that makes you less of a fan. I'd say it makes you a tool. (not saying you are)

So, there. That's my rebuttle. As for educating these "worthless, mindless cowards", I can only calmly ask them why they like books and ask them their thoughts on things so many times before I begin to remember that old saying:

"You can't teach those who refuse to listen".

Once more, with feeling!


Just funnin'... that had feeling a-plenty.

That post is the new post of the freakin' year.

 

[shinlyle]

Once more, with feeling!


Just funnin'... that had feeling a-plenty.

That post is the new post of the freakin' year.

Aw...shucks....

I can't take all the credit. This award actually belongs to thsoe imbeciles who speak before they think, and of course, nice folk like Spideyinatree, who, while they mean well, have absolutely no idea what I'm talkng about half the time, judging from the fact that he still thinks this is an "agree with me or go home" debate.

 

[SpideyInATree]

Aw...shucks....

I can't take all the credit. This award actually belongs to thsoe imbeciles who speak before they think, and of course, nice folk like Spideyinatree, who, while they mean well, have absolutely no idea what I'm talkng about half the time, judging from the fact that he still thinks this is an "agree with me or go home" debate.

Putting words in my mouth again, I see. I don't remember saying or implying that people have to agree with me.

However, I do know what you are talking about but it is you who fail to try and see things from my perspective.

All I want is for posters to stop insulting one another simply because one doesn't agree with the other. Most of the people who post here ARE ADULTS. And we aren't really acting like that too much. You, me, and EVERYONE ELSE included barring a few posters who are always civil and respectful.

 

[shinlyle]

So, you're upset because these guys make threads that you don't agree with? Now a nice debate is great. All I'm trying to say is: Is it really necessary to insult people all the time? I don't know your entire history with those other posters that you mentioned. Maybe they insulted you first.

But I'm also pointing at those posters too. Not everyone is so innocent here in these forums.

And I know you didn't point out my name. But a few other posters HAVE pointed out my name into a "group" that I'm not really a part of. No, I'm not enjoying something simply because I'm told to. I enjoy things because it's how I feel. But I'm also not going to let myself be alienated here because I'm not saying, "I'm not reading Spider-Man comics anymore until they do what I want". Maybe that's how you feel. And others feel.

But I don't. Like I said, I'm different than a lot of you guys on these forums. I don't take things so seriously. Spider-Man is a comic book character and I don't like EVERY THING that's written in every Spider-Man book. There are things that irk me and things I dislike. But just simply because I dislike a few things doesn't mean I'm going to give up on the character.

I'm a Spider-Man fan. Have been since I was 8 years old. I like reading Spider-Man, through the good times and the bad. But just because I dislike a few things doesn't mean I'm going to give up the book.

Maybe you, and other posters, want to campaign and not read the book. You guys do what you have to do. But I love Spider-Man too much to give up the book simply because I thought Reginald Hudlin's portion of The Other was a disgrace to comic books. Or because Sins Past was such a horrible, horrible idea. Just set backs and lessons that need to be learned by future creators that things in the past should be left there.

But the entire point is, we're all Spider-Man fans. We're all comic book fans. You'd think that we'd really all get along fairly well. But that's not the case, unfortunately, and because one guy thinks Spider-Man's suit is awful and the other things its awesome....does it really call for each of us to be so condescending and hateful? Neither side is wrong when they state their opinions. Yet a small debate about a fictional character we all love turns into giant flame wars of he said, she said. And nobody comes out the wiser either.

First off, I'm not upset about anyone starting a thread I don't like. I'm pissed off as hell when someone starts a new thread pimping out something everyone else hates, when they could have just responded in the post half-way down the front page. The multiple "Iron Spidey" threads are a prime example of this. I've seen only two or three threads about this suit that had anything different to say from other threads. It's annoying, and it's spamming. Plain and Simple. If I started a thread entitled: "LOL! JMS and Joey Q messed up!!" then, I would expect to be dealt with as a nuisance, especially seeing as how this thread is the exact same thread, but and it's at the top of the front page.

As for this not insulting people thing, it would be easier to be civil if other posters didn't post asanine comments that we hear every day, such as:

1) Quit complaining
2) You fear change
3) Well I liked it
4) You still buy it


These things are repeated ad nauseum and are never true. Quit complaining? It's a f***ing message board....on the internet! It's built to house the complaints and critiques of the consumer!! DEAL WITH IT!!! You fear change..? No, we can respect good change, but we HATE asanine changes that serve no purpose and make little or no progress in the story. This would include stupid costumes, stingers, Spidey as a murderer, etc. Well I liked it....? Good for you, but this isn't an argument. It isn't based on facts. It's an opinion. State some reasons why you liked it that contradict why I duslike it, or don't contribute. You still buy it...? No....alot of us don't, and that's our right.

Now, I respect you as a fellow Spidey fan, man, and if you want to keep reading the books, then that's your perogitive. Me, I've got better things I can do with my time. I could actually take a ball-peen hammer to my testacles, and I'd probably get more out of it than I get out of the current Spidey books. Maybe a Ball-peen hammer to the scrotum isn't your thing, so I'll respect your opinion and you can respect mine.

Still, if you say that I'm pounding myself in the goodie-bag because I fear change, then we're going to have to fight.

 

[shinlyle]

Putting words in my mouth again, I see. I don't remember saying or implying that people have to agree with me.

However, I do know what you are talking about but it is you who fail to try and see things from my perspective.

All I want is for posters to stop insulting one another simply because one doesn't agree with the other. Most of the people who post here ARE ADULTS. And we aren't really acting like that too much. You, me, and EVERYONE ELSE included barring a few posters who are always civil and respectful.

it was supposed to be a joke, man...

I get what you are saying, man. Yeah, it would be nice if we could all get along, but the world isn't a perfect place. We can try and be respectful and nice, but there are always going to be those few asses who make things harder than they must be, and they have to be dealt with. It's the way of things, I suppose.

I would much rather be able to come here and not have to get into a heated argument every day, but then I think about how the entire internet would collapse if you couldn't just show up and rant aimlessly about how Spider-Man isn't Spider-Man because of his hair, costume, stingers, bow-tie, etc.

It's the way of things. You don't have to like it, man. In fact, I'd hope you don't thrive on confrontation. I'm glad you don't. Me....I don't thrive on it, but I am pretty good at it.

In other words, I see your point, I'm just making sure that you can see mine.

and that comment was a joke....dammit.

 

[SpideyInATree]

First off, I'm not upset about anyone starting a thread I don't like. I'm pissed off as hell when someone starts a new thread pimping out something everyone else hates, when they could have just responded in the post half-way down the front page. The multiple "Iron Spidey" threads are a prime example of this. I've seen only two or three threads about this suit that had anything different to say from other threads. It's annoying, and it's spamming. Plain and Simple. If I started a thread entitled: "LOL! JMS and Joey Q messed up!!" then, I would expect to be dealt with as a nuisance, especially seeing as how this thread is the exact same thread, but and it's at the top of the front page.

As for this not insulting people thing, it would be easier to be civil if other posters didn't post asanine comments that we hear every day, such as:

1) Quit complaining
2) You fear change
3) Well I liked it
4) You still buy it


These things are repeated ad nauseum and are never true. Quit complaining? It's a f***ing message board....on the internet! It's built to house the complaints and critiques of the consumer!! DEAL WITH IT!!! You fear change..? No, we can respect good change, but we HATE asanine changes that serve no purpose and make little or no progress in the story. This would include stupid costumes, stingers, Spidey as a murderer, etc. Well I liked it....? Good for you, but this isn't an argument. It isn't based on facts. It's an opinion. State some reasons why you liked it that contradict why I duslike it, or don't contribute. You still buy it...? No....alot of us don't, and that's our right.

Now, I respect you as a fellow Spidey fan, man, and if you want to keep reading the books, then that's your perogitive. Me, I've got better things I can do with my time. I could actually take a ball-peen hammer to my testacles, and I'd probably get more out of it than I get out of the current Spidey books. Maybe a Ball-peen hammer to the scrotum isn't your thing, so I'll respect your opinion and you can respect mine.

Still, if you say that I'm pounding myself in the goodie-bag because I fear change, then we're going to have to fight.

Ok. So, you're mad at some posters because they aren't veterans of message boards and are, most likely, excited to share their comments...so they start a thread. Now whether there is the same topic on the same page or not...some people don't really understand the "rules" of a message board.

It irks a lot of people when multiple topics are made. So, instead of being angry and mad at them. Tell them there is already a topic created and give them a link. You don't want to do that? Ignore it. Heh. Would it be that tough to just move on to another thread and forget about that one? Or does it really bother you that much? Because if it does maybe you need to take a break from the boards for a while.

And I can understand anger at "Quit complaining", "Fear of change". But "Well, I Like It". Why would that make you mad? They like it. As I said earlier. Not everyone is like Herr Logan or Dread. They don't need to write a gigantic article of why they enjoyed or didn't enjoy something. I think you're being a tad petty on that. I understand maybe you'd like a further explanation but, like the multiple topics, why can't you just ignore it sometimes? If the person doesn't want to further elaborate then they don't want to. But I understand where you come from on that. It's just seems a little petty to get worked up because someone says, "Well, I liked it". Heh.

As for "You still buy it". Heh. I've used that against some posters in the All Star Batman thread to irk them. Because if you really are that disgusted with something and are still buying it....then why are you getting so mad? I mean, you're only adding more fuel to the fire yourself. If you know JMS sucks and Quesada sucks...and you hate the new suit and hate Spidey on the New Avengers...then why would you still buy it? You'd only be supporting something that you're against.

I understand that some people like to have complete runs and some people feel they just can't miss an issue no matter how bad it is. And I can understand how that can make you angry. But the statement has a lot of valid points to it, in my opinion. If all a person does is talk about how much something sucks and then they go out and BUY IT anyway...I don't feel too much sympathy for the person.

You have to understand what it's like from the other side of the fence sometimes. While you may be tired of seeing those comments. I'm tired of seeing a handful of them myself. Like the every popular:

"Whoever likes what is going on in the Spider-Man books now isn't a real Spider-Man fan"

I hate that comment.

Or "You are a sheep for liking what's going on"

It's almost like some posters here, because they think that they know everything there is to know about Spider-Man, that they are above everybody else. And if you disagree with them or think differently than them...than you're not a real fan. That you're not "in the kliq". So, they use arrogance and insults to make posters feel inferior to them...and then another poster joins in....and another....and then it's suddenly a gang attack just because somebody doesn't share the same opinion.

It goes both ways. I miss having discussions in the Spidey forums. I'm getting really fed up with the constant "I'm better than you because I said Spider-Man sucks and you said it didn't! Admit I was right and you were wrong". When, really, neither are right or wrong.

Do I want everyone to agree and be on the same page? HA! That's impossible. That's like asking the Ku Klux Klan to stop hating black people and hoping they will.

But it would be nice if, you know, posters wouldn't make people feel inferior because they are different. THAT is getting really old. Just because you know a whole lot about Spider-Man doesn't mean you are ALWAYS right.

And it would be fantastic to ignore all of these comments and these posters who do these things...but that means I'd have to ignore over half the people in these forums and I'm not going to do that.

So, I guess I either have to put up with arrogant posters who have to ruin a nice experience for people because they're upset with the way Spider-Man is being written or maybe we can all get together and help make it a better community.

Will there be fights? Yeah, I'm sure there will be. But alienating posters and making them feel unwelcome because they think differently is rather disgusting. Hard to have a discussion with someone who tells you you're not a real Spider-Man fan because you think differently.

 

[Herr Logan]

Aw...shucks....

I can't take all the credit. This award actually belongs to thsoe imbeciles who speak before they think, and of course, nice folk like Spideyinatree, who, while they mean well, have absolutely no idea what I'm talkng about half the time, judging from the fact that he still thinks this is an "agree with me or go home" debate.

Hey, I've deigned to exchange words with those disfavorable cognitive pedestrians plenty a time in the past. Isn't that credit enough?

Speaking of which, the poster you mentioned is an incredible hypocrite, both because he is dead-set on paying for books that he at some point claimed to have been disallusioned with (although I could be mistaking him for someone else), and because he chides the likes of us for our alleged (and proven) condescending attitudes toward people who disagree with us when I've seen him dish out enough arrogance to put even me to shame several times. He has repeatedly lashed out at "whiners" and dissenters who expect more from comics and movies, and seemingly only because he's annoyed by complaints. That behavior (reacting to complaints with hostility automatically) is childish and should be punished. No, seriously, I'm not just mouthing off; it really pisses me off (the display of which encourages the behavior, of course... like he said, we're none of us innocent).

I have never understood this mentality that arguing, even heatedly, in general is a bad thing. Yeah, they'll say they aren't against arguments, but anytime people actually stick to their guns and pass over the whole "well, that's you opinion, and I have my own" bull$hit, they show how shallow and complacent they are. I mean, what the hell is the point of a multi-media internet forum? To simply bleat out praise and expressions of excitement? To say "I have faith in [insert name of director and hater of source material ]"? To impart information? As for that last one, the parent site here is an information website already. While I realize more detail can be imparted through open forums, there's also infinite potential for misinformation.
How the hell are people going to have fun if no one argues? Would any of you read or watch a story that didn't have conflict in it? Also, we use fake names (most of us), we put on a fake face (or other picture, or animation, etc.) and we talk about characters in fantasy stories, and yet when someone adopts a more aggressive persona than people are used to or would indulge in real life, that's seen as some hideous evil. What the feck are people doing here? I'm not interested in just a mindless, happy, shiny, "positive attitude" circle jerk. Hell, I created a thread that at times has been like that, but I seek other enjoyment out here on the killing fields. There are intelligent arguments to be made, and those who stand to quell that sort of discussion are counterproductive, and thus worthless. At least when they act on those abominable urges.

These people are exactly what is wrong with... all that is wrong in the world, I guess. At least that which is perpetrated or allowed by humans. Complacency and bad decision-making is why more and more people hate the United States every day, because people didn't have the intelligence and/or the balls to identify a proven global threat and instead put them in the highest seat of authority there is.
This attitude that being "negative" and criticizing things is bad or useless... it's unforgivable. It is weakness of mind and spirit. It's un-fecking-worthy of even my attention, but I have my compulsions, so I run with it.

The reason this attitude is so destructive even when voiced on the topic of superheroes is that anyone who acts like that could (not will, but more than likely could) take the same attitude toward politics, general policies and other important, real-world issues. Complaints are annoying? Well how about we all just hold hands and offer praise and stand by while authority figures and other people who are important in the world screw everything up. When I say "important people," I'm not just talking about politicians and other leaders or even just police officers and soldiers. How about the people who build airplanes? How about business executives who control how their employees (and those people's families) are able to live? You want to get in an airplane built by people who were allowed to screw up because people don't like to hear "whining" and suggestions for improvement? You want to work at a company where people don't complain about unfair corporate policies not only because they're afraid, but because complaining is just looked down upon even by the people being screwed over?

Again, I realize that discussing art like movies and comics isn't on the same level of importance, but there are plenty of people who act the same with regard comics as they do about politics. Interestingly enough, I've seen trends where the behaviors were reversed in these boards. People who were dismayed at the U.S. government and spoke on acted (and still act) like conformist sheep when it came to comics, and people who support the government took a critical approach to movies and comics. This isn't the majority, I'm just saying that I've seen that as a strong trend at times. Anyway, I'm an overall critic, of everything, and that's the only fecking way anything ever gets done in the world!!

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man."--George Bernard Shaw

Take that to the bank and smoke it, conformists and complacent robots of the Hype!

 

[SpideyInATree]

Hey, I've deigned to exchange words with those disfavorable cognitive pedestrians plenty a time in the past. Isn't that credit enough?

Speaking of which, the poster you mentioned is an incredible hypocrite, both because he is dead-set on paying for books that he at some point claimed to have been disallusioned with (although I could be mistaking him for someone else), and because he chides the likes of us for our alleged (and proven) condescending attitudes toward people who disagree with us when I've seen him dish out enough arrogance to put even me to shame several times. He has repeatedly lashed out at "whiners" and dissenters who expect more from comics and movies, and seemingly only because he's annoyed by complaints. That behavior (reacting to complaints with hostility automatically) is childish and should be punished. No, seriously, I'm not just mouthing off; it really pisses me off (the display of which encourages the behavior, of course... like he said, we're none of us innocent).

I have never understood this mentality that arguing, even heatedly, in general is a bad thing. Yeah, they'll say they aren't against arguments, but anytime people actually stick to their guns and pass over the whole "well, that's you opinion, and I have my own" bull$hit, they show how shallow and complacent they are. I mean, what the hell is the point of a multi-media internet forum? To simply bleat out praise and expressions of excitement? To say "I have faith in [insert name of director and hater of source material ]"? To impart information? As for that last one, the parent site here is an information website already. While I realize more detail can be imparted through open forums, there's also infinite potential for misinformation.
How the hell are people going to have fun if no one argues? Would any of you read or watch a story that didn't have conflict in it? Also, we use fake names (most of us), we put on a fake face (or other picture, or animation, etc.) and we talk about characters in fantasy stories, and yet when someone adopts a more aggressive persona than people are used to or would indulge in real life, that's seen as some hideous evil. What the feck are people doing here? I'm not interested in just a mindless, happy, shiny, "positive attitude" circle jerk. Hell, I created a thread that at times has been like that, but I seek other enjoyment out here on the killing fields. There are intelligent arguments to be made, and those who stand to quell that sort of discussion are counterproductive, and thus worthless. At least when they act on those abominable urges.

These people are exactly what is wrong with... all that is wrong in the world, I guess. At least that which is perpetrated or allowed by humans. Complacency and bad decision-making is why more and more people hate the United States every day, because people didn't have the intelligence and/or the balls to identify a proven global threat and instead put them in the highest seat of authority there is.
This attitude that being "negative" and criticizing things is bad or useless... it's unforgivable. It is weakness of mind and spirit. It's un-fecking-worthy of even my attention, but I have my compulsions, so I run with it.

The reason this attitude is so destructive even when voiced on the topic of superheroes is that anyone who acts like that could (not will, but more than likely could) take the same attitude toward politics, general policies and other important, real-world issues. Complaints are annoying? Well how about we all just hold hands and offer praise and stand by while authority figures and other people who are important in the world screw everything up. When I say "important people," I'm not just talking about politicians and other leaders or even just police officers and soldiers. How about the people who build airplanes? How about business executives who control how their employees (and those people's families) are able to live? You want to get in an airplane built by people who were allowed to screw up because people don't like to hear "whining" and suggestions for improvement? You want to work at a company where people don't complain about unfair corporate policies not only because they're afraid, but because complaining is just looked down upon even by the people being screwed over?

Again, I realize that discussing art like movies and comics isn't on the same level of importance, but there are plenty of people who act the same with regard comics as they do about politics. Interestingly enough, I've seen trends where the behaviors were reversed in these boards. People who were dismayed at the U.S. government and spoke on acted (and still act) like conformist sheep when it came to comics, and people who support the government took a critical approach to movies and comics. This isn't the majority, I'm just saying that I've seen that as a strong trend at times. Anyway, I'm an overall critic, of everything, and that's the only fecking way anything ever gets done in the world!!

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man."--George Bernard Shaw

Take that to the bank and smoke it, conformists and complacent robots of the Hype!

I've admitted my shortcomings to you in the past.

I'm tired of not being able to discuss things on this board. I'm tired of the elitist attitudes toward posters who think differently. I'm merely offering a sort of truce where we can forget all the BS and just talk about Spider-Man.

That's why I'm here, to discuss my comics. And it becomes a place I don't want to be when I'm alienated because I think differently. If you guys are upset with what's going on, that's fine and dandy. But do you really have to make people feel so inferior? Are you the all knowing, all saying Spider-Man knowledge God?

None of us are.

I want to discuss Spider-Man. Do you?

 

[Herr Logan]

I'd also like to say that there is a difference between "opinions" and "attitudes." An opinion is something that has to be stated in words to have any validity, and is a statement and/or an argument (which is the same in certain venues).
An attitude is a preference, is something that does not have to be stated in words and is entirely subjective.

You (proverbial "you") don't ask a second doctor for a "second opinion" and expect to hear whether this doctor likes your prognosis or not. You ask him that to know what he thinks the facts are. The first doctor, or a third one, can argue the second as to that opinion. Getting it, now, people?

You can argue against arguments, and thus you can argue against opinions. You cannot argue with preferences as a valid behavior (no matter how tempting it is). I actually disagree with Shinlyle when he said, "you should be able to tell us why you enjoyed tham and what you thought was so great about them." At least as a naked statement. If you qualify that with, "if you are going to challenge someone else who had a different preference," then it's airtight. You cannot pit a preference against another preference, unless it's a might-makes-right scenario with policy or short term changes at stake (i.e. JMS can keep screwing up from here on out, because Joey Q likes his stuff, hypothetically... I know it's about sales, not Joey Q's preference... in this case). You can, however, make arguments that stem from your preferences, and therefore everyone who says "respect people's opinions" when they they're talking about statements (i.e. "The costume was perfect, don't change it," "They should keep JMS as writer for 'Amazing Spider-Man'"). Damn Goddamn right I can disrespect those kinds of statements. You didn't say you liked those things in that instance, you said "was" and "should," which are statements of fact (not actual fact, but in the form of factual statements), and thus I can justly rip into those "opinions" if I feel the urge and have an argument to make. Opinions aren't sacred. This isn't kindergarden, people. Act like grown-ups, not in terms of how friendly are "nice" you are, but in terms of putting some real thought into these issues.

Class dismissed. For now...

 

[Cullen]

Call it what you will. Argueing, debating, b!tching, whatever. It is a part of Conversation and Conversation is the only way to cause change. If you keep silent, keep your opinions to yourself, then nothing will change.

By change, though, I don't mean just getting what you want. Sometimes you just can't make the idiot see reason, or talk that friend out of seeing things the "wrong" way. However, by simple trying, you learn. You see which approaches work, which don't. You modify your approach and find ways of dealing when everyone and everything goes against you. You discover what it's like to be correct and what it's like to be wrong.

YOU change. And that's far more important than what outfit Spidey wears, or who he's married, or whether or not he grows older.

But not more important than getting "Sins Past" and "The Other" retconned into being just a bad dream.

We need standards, people. Standards.

 

[Herr Logan]

I've admitted my shortcomings to you in the past.

I'm tired of not being able to discuss things on this board. I'm tired of the elitist attitudes toward posters who think differently. I'm merely offering a sort of truce where we can forget all the BS and just talk about Spider-Man.

Yes, you've admitted your shortcomings, and I have as well-- if not to you (I can't remember too well) then to others, and publically so. You're still making the same mistakes, and I am too, to a degree. I'd like to retract what I said about you being a hypocrite (for the moment), because I believe that even if a person is similarly flawed, pointing out misconduct in others is still valuable if people listen to the message despite the messenger. I called you a hypocrite because I don't agree that the behavior is necessarily bad in its own right, but that the deciding substance of your own condescending arguments was invalid, which is the reason why we're at odds in the first place.

We are talking about Spider-Man, among other issues relating to Spider-Man and to the very nature of talking about Spider-Man (or whatever else in a given discussion). It gets heated when people make inferior arguments and other people call them on it. Also when people object to the hostility inherent in some of those responses, and so it goes.
The heatedness can get out of hand, but until it hits a point of pure hostility for its own sake, it provokes thought, and that's why I defend that behavior. See that quote above in the post you quoted.

That's why I'm here, to discuss my comics. And it becomes a place I don't want to be when I'm alienated because I think differently. If you guys are upset with what's going on, that's fine and dandy. But do you really have to make people feel so inferior? Are you the all knowing, all saying Spider-Man knowledge God?

But, it's fun to be arrogant and say things that may induce others to feel inferior if they can't learn and improve as a result.

No, seriously, that's part of the appeal of a discussion where we can consider our words before we express them to others. The whole fantasy thing, again. It's not a matter of anonymity being an excuse for bad behavior, it's an opportunity for creativity. And yes, arguing heatedly is fun, and if others would either stop saying stupid things that earn my ire or play along in their own arrogant way (and they damn well do have plenty of arrogance of their own, of that you can be sure), then we're on equal footing. I've put up with too much hostility from people who are in fact inferior to me to have too much regret over my own arrogance. Yes, I've gone overboard before, but for the most part, I play pretty damn fair. I don't talk about people's mothers, I don't make up scenarios where the other poster is still "living in his parents' basement," I don't make comments as to whether they need a girlfriend, etc. I'm above that sort of thing, and I mean that. I have the same urge to fight dirty as everyone who does fight dirty, but I keep it in check because I have standards of myself as well as others, despite my failures in living up to those standards (in other areas, not the fighting dirty thing). The same goes in real life in terms of verbal combat. I don't lower myself beyond a certain depth. What people really resent is that there's always at least some truth to what I'm saying and I'm damn good at feigning supreme arrogance (my true arrogance isn't "supreme," it's merely magnificent), and that combination induces negative feelings in others. I don't "make" anyone feel anything, unless I make physical contact. No, people don't control their emotions very well, but their psychological reactions are due to their hardwiring, not outside stimuli, and they can control their outward reactions.

No, I'm not the Spider-Man knowledge God, but I can relay much of his wisdom to the benighted masses who knoweth not the mythical glory that is classic Spider-Man.

None of us are.

I want to discuss Spider-Man. Do you?

I've discussed Spider-Man plenty, and right now I'm commenting on the nature of arguing, since you and others brought it up.


Gotta run now (and I'm on such a roll, too...), so I'll try to address anything I left out that needs to be said later). Try not to take this stuff too personally, okay? You know that part of you enjoys this, just like I do.

 

[shinlyle]

Ok. So, you're mad at some posters because they aren't veterans of message boards and are, most likely, excited to share their comments...so they start a thread. Now whether there is the same topic on the same page or not...some people don't really understand the "rules" of a message board.

It irks a lot of people when multiple topics are made. So, instead of being angry and mad at them. Tell them there is already a topic created and give them a link. You don't want to do that? Ignore it. Heh. Would it be that tough to just move on to another thread and forget about that one? Or does it really bother you that much? Because if it does maybe you need to take a break from the boards for a while.

And I can understand anger at "Quit complaining", "Fear of change". But "Well, I Like It". Why would that make you mad? They like it. As I said earlier. Not everyone is like Herr Logan or Dread. They don't need to write a gigantic article of why they enjoyed or didn't enjoy something. I think you're being a tad petty on that. I understand maybe you'd like a further explanation but, like the multiple topics, why can't you just ignore it sometimes? If the person doesn't want to further elaborate then they don't want to. But I understand where you come from on that. It's just seems a little petty to get worked up because someone says, "Well, I liked it". Heh.

As for "You still buy it". Heh. I've used that against some posters in the All Star Batman thread to irk them. Because if you really are that disgusted with something and are still buying it....then why are you getting so mad? I mean, you're only adding more fuel to the fire yourself. If you know JMS sucks and Quesada sucks...and you hate the new suit and hate Spidey on the New Avengers...then why would you still buy it? You'd only be supporting something that you're against.

I understand that some people like to have complete runs and some people feel they just can't miss an issue no matter how bad it is. And I can understand how that can make you angry. But the statement has a lot of valid points to it, in my opinion. If all a person does is talk about how much something sucks and then they go out and BUY IT anyway...I don't feel too much sympathy for the person.

You have to understand what it's like from the other side of the fence sometimes. While you may be tired of seeing those comments. I'm tired of seeing a handful of them myself. Like the every popular:

"Whoever likes what is going on in the Spider-Man books now isn't a real Spider-Man fan"

I hate that comment.

Or "You are a sheep for liking what's going on"

It's almost like some posters here, because they think that they know everything there is to know about Spider-Man, that they are above everybody else. And if you disagree with them or think differently than them...than you're not a real fan. That you're not "in the kliq". So, they use arrogance and insults to make posters feel inferior to them...and then another poster joins in....and another....and then it's suddenly a gang attack just because somebody doesn't share the same opinion.

It goes both ways. I miss having discussions in the Spidey forums. I'm getting really fed up with the constant "I'm better than you because I said Spider-Man sucks and you said it didn't! Admit I was right and you were wrong". When, really, neither are right or wrong.

Do I want everyone to agree and be on the same page? HA! That's impossible. That's like asking the Ku Klux Klan to stop hating black people and hoping they will.

But it would be nice if, you know, posters wouldn't make people feel inferior because they are different. THAT is getting really old. Just because you know a whole lot about Spider-Man doesn't mean you are ALWAYS right.

And it would be fantastic to ignore all of these comments and these posters who do these things...but that means I'd have to ignore over half the people in these forums and I'm not going to do that.

So, I guess I either have to put up with arrogant posters who have to ruin a nice experience for people because they're upset with the way Spider-Man is being written or maybe we can all get together and help make it a better community.

Will there be fights? Yeah, I'm sure there will be. But alienating posters and making them feel unwelcome because they think differently is rather disgusting. Hard to have a discussion with someone who tells you you're not a real Spider-Man fan because you think differently.

Wow...that post is FAR too long.

The newbies should be sensible enough to scroll through the message boards and learn the lay of the land, so to speak. I do it before I start posting on ANY message board. Following the rules is just a common courtesy. As for the ignoring and posting links thing....that's what I usually do. Sometimes, the thread keeps going anyway, and people far less respectful than myself eat the poor newbie alive. It's nice when we can prevent that.

As for the "Well, I like it", I don't mind people saying this, but to blast somone for hating on something, and then this is the entirety of your argument...? Lame.

"You still buy it"...yeah, I use that against anyone who buys AS:B&R as well. Then again, I usually leave those folk alone. Reading that book is punishment enough.The fact that they are paying to read that book is just plain sad.

Also, discussion in the Spidey forums....are you mad?!

Seriously, though, I think that, once this Iron Spidey stuff blows over (for better or worse), and once the "Other" is retconned, maybe things can go back to some semblence of normality. Even still, I'm sure something will happen between now and then to piss people off, and we'll start all over again.

As for the "sheep" thing, yeah, it can get overused, but there are definitely some folk on here to which that rule applies. I mentioned them in an earlier post.

 

[Cullen]

I'd also like to say that there is a difference between "opinions" and "attitudes." An opinion is something that has to be stated in words to have any validity, and is a statement and/or an argument (which is the same in certain venues).
An attitude is a preference, is something that does not have to be stated in words and is entirely subjective.

You (proverbial "you") don't ask a second doctor for a "second opinion" and expect to hear whether this doctor likes your prognosis or not. You ask him that to know what he thinks the facts are. The first doctor, or a third one, can argue the second as to that opinion. Getting it, now, people?

You can argue against arguments, and thus you can argue against opinions. You cannot argue with preferences as a valid behavior (no matter how tempting it is). I actually disagree with Shinlyle when he said, "you should be able to tell us why you enjoyed tham and what you thought was so great about them." At least as a naked statement. If you qualify that with, "if you are going to challenge someone else who had a different preference," then it's airtight. You cannot pit a preference against another preference, unless it's a might-makes-right scenario with policy or short term changes at stake (i.e. JMS can keep screwing up from here on out, because Joey Q likes his stuff, hypothetically... I know it's about sales, not Joey Q's preference... in this case). You can, however, make arguments that stem from your preferences, and therefore everyone who says "respect people's opinions" when they they're talking about statements (i.e. "The costume was perfect, don't change it," "They should keep JMS as writer for 'Amazing Spider-Man'"). Damn Goddamn right I can disrespect those kinds of statements. You didn't say you liked those things in that instance, you said "was" and "should," which are statements of fact (not actual fact, but in the form of factual statements), and thus I can justly rip into those "opinions" if I feel the urge and have an argument to make. Opinions aren't sacred. This isn't kindergarden, people. Act like grown-ups, not in terms of how friendly are "nice" you are, but in terms of putting some real thought into these issues.

Class dismissed. For now...

I hate saying ditto and make myself look like a mindless lackey, but I feel Herr Logan is right (even if he's a little repetitive in his use of damn.) We like what we like, that can't be argued. But just because we like it doesn't mean its good, any more than disliking something means it's bad.

There are movies out there that are absolutely terrible that I like and enjoy, such as the 1998 version of "Godzilla". I can not defend this. It's just the way it is.

I also like "Casablanca", a much older movie. This I believe is a good film, and, push comes to shove, I think I could defend it.

 

[shinlyle]

Call it what you will. Argueing, debating, b!tching, whatever. It is a part of Conversation and Conversation is the only way to cause change. If you keep silent, keep your opinions to yourself, then nothing will change.

By change, though, I don't mean just getting what you want. Sometimes you just can't make the idiot see reason, or talk that friend out of seeing things the "wrong" way. However, by simple trying, you learn. You see which approaches work, which don't. You modify your approach and find ways of dealing when everyone and everything goes against you. You discover what it's like to be correct and what it's like to be wrong.

YOU change. And that's far more important than what outfit Spidey wears, or who he's married, or whether or not he grows older.

But not more important than getting "Sins Past" and "The Other" retconned into being just a bad dream.

We need standards, people. Standards.

Damn....that was beautiful, man....
*begins slow clap*

 

[dan1]

I'd also like to say that there is a difference between "opinions" and "attitudes." An opinion is something that has to be stated in words to have any validity, and is a statement and/or an argument (which is the same in certain venues).
An attitude is a preference, is something that does not have to be stated in words and is entirely subjective.

You (proverbial "you") don't ask a second doctor for a "second opinion" and expect to hear whether this doctor likes your prognosis or not. You ask him that to know what he thinks the facts are. The first doctor, or a third one, can argue the second as to that opinion. Getting it, now, people?

You can argue against arguments, and thus you can argue against opinions. You cannot argue with preferences as a valid behavior (no matter how tempting it is). I actually disagree with Shinlyle when he said, "you should be able to tell us why you enjoyed tham and what you thought was so great about them." At least as a naked statement. If you qualify that with, "if you are going to challenge someone else who had a different preference," then it's airtight. You cannot pit a preference against another preference, unless it's a might-makes-right scenario with policy or short term changes at stake (i.e. JMS can keep screwing up from here on out, because Joey Q likes his stuff, hypothetically... I know it's about sales, not Joey Q's preference... in this case). You can, however, make arguments that stem from your preferences, and therefore everyone who says "respect people's opinions" when they they're talking about statements (i.e. "The costume was perfect, don't change it," "They should keep JMS as writer for 'Amazing Spider-Man'"). Damn Goddamn right I can disrespect those kinds of statements. You didn't say you liked those things in that instance, you said "was" and "should," which are statements of fact (not actual fact, but in the form of factual statements), and thus I can justly rip into those "opinions" if I feel the urge and have an argument to make. Opinions aren't sacred. This isn't kindergarden, people. Act like grown-ups, not in terms of how friendly are "nice" you are, but in terms of putting some real thought into these issues.

Class dismissed. For now...

Agree with Cullen and Shin and Herr. You have to back up your statements on these forums. We've put effort into making this a place for intelligent discourse and if someone opposes someones' views, but only gives a "well don't read it then" or "well it's just good" or "JMS is Incredible," and that's the extent of their opinion, just the same like it or get out pseudo-"positive" or empty quasi-"positive" statement, then they're not going to be let off the hook.

Losing an arguement is fine by me, but I'm not going to let someone who opposes intelligent discourse "win" the arguement just because they physically posted most recently.

 

[Norman Osborn]

Agree with Cullen and Shin and Herr. You have to back up your statements on these forums. We've put effort into making this a place for intelligent discourse and if someone opposes someones' views, but only gives a "well don't read it then" or "well it's just good" or "JMS is Incredible," and that's the extent of their opinion, just the same like it or get out pseudo-"positive" or empty quasi-"positive" statement, then they're not going to be let off the hook.

Losing an arguement is fine by me, but I'm not going to let someone who opposes intelligent discourse "win" the arguement just because they physically posted most recently.

Well I guess here's where I take a quantum leap from the intellectual masses......I don't have to back up anything. If I discredit/disagree with someone else's opinion then yes I should respond with at least some semblance of a substantiated position that stands in opposition of the statement I've spurned..(and "just cuz" doesn't cut it)...but if someone's waiting for a long drawn out reason why I like the New Avengers....well you have two choices

1/ Verbally castrate me......trust me ..I can take it
2/ Actually wait till I call to question someone's negative opinion of the book..(for the record I've done that once...by PM)

 

[Lt. Figgnuts]

Wow...I go away for a while and all of the sudden there's SSH Flame War '06. Why didn't anybody warn me?

Shin, I would point out that you are the man.

Logan, you are also pretty man-like.

EDIT: Cullen is also closely resembles a "man."

Man, there are a lot of awesome "men" on the boards. I love you guys. Maybe I just missed you all. Who knows? Ignore my ramblings.

It's good to see Quesada and JMS *supposedly* admit their shortcomings in regards to the Spidey books, but I'll reserve judgement until the change actually happens.

 

[Doc Destruction]

You know, the entire point of this post was to illustrate to those of you who LIKED and DEFENDED the trash that has been happening in the Spidey books these days that JMS and Quesada KNOW IT SUCKS. The fact that they think MJ is the problem only takes their mental ******ation to a whole new level.

You can like what you like, but when the creator admits that they made a mistake when some of us have been saying that for some time now, you may want to think about that.

Well, and get some back issues to REALLY discover what makes Spider-Man the best freaking superhero of all time.

 

[Lt. Figgnuts]

You can like what you like, but when the creator admits that they made a mistake when some of us have been saying that for some time now, you may want to think about that.

100% agreement.

The Other started out alright, but turned into a trainwreck.

 

[Herr Logan]

Wow...I go away for a while and all of the sudden there's SSH Flame War '06. Why didn't anybody warn me?

Shin, I would point out that you are the man.

Logan, you are also pretty man-like.

There's no harsher criticism than faint praise.

EDIT: Cullen is also closely resembles a "man."

Yep. Just about.

Man, there are a lot of awesome "men" on the boards. I love you guys. Maybe I just missed you all. Who knows? Ignore my ramblings.

It's good to see Quesada and JMS *supposedly* admit their shortcomings in regards to the Spidey books, but I'll reserve judgement until the change actually happens.

I'd love you, too, but my man-pride is hurt by the phrase "man-like." Even though I presume there's a likelihood that by "man" you mean something more than simply a male human, I'd prefer another word. And I'll take a page from Cullen's book and do some hard-core sulking until I get a new word.

 

[Herr Logan]

Call it what you will. Argueing, debating, b!tching, whatever. It is a part of Conversation and Conversation is the only way to cause change. If you keep silent, keep your opinions to yourself, then nothing will change.

By change, though, I don't mean just getting what you want. Sometimes you just can't make the idiot see reason, or talk that friend out of seeing things the "wrong" way. However, by simple trying, you learn. You see which approaches work, which don't. You modify your approach and find ways of dealing when everyone and everything goes against you. You discover what it's like to be correct and what it's like to be wrong.

YOU change. And that's far more important than what outfit Spidey wears, or who he's married, or whether or not he grows older.

But not more important than getting "Sins Past" and "The Other" retconned into being just a bad dream.

We need standards, people. Standards.

Tell it like it is!!

I hate saying ditto and make myself look like a mindless lackey,

I don't even need to say anything here, do I?

but I feel Herr Logan is right

Naturally.

(even if he's a little repetitive in his use of damn.)

Damn it, Cullen, shut your word-hole.

We like what we like, that can't be argued. But just because we like it doesn't mean its good, any more than disliking something means it's bad.

There are movies out there that are absolutely terrible that I like and enjoy, such as the 1998 version of "Godzilla". I can not defend this. It's just the way it is.

I also like "Casablanca", a much older movie. This I believe is a good film, and, push comes to shove, I think I could defend it.

Those are very good points. While I still believe "good" and "bad" are subjective to an extent in most situations (I'm not a moral relativist, don't worry), some value judgements are accepted by concensus, and individuals' preferences do not change the value judgement. You can like something that's crappily written/drawn/directed/acted/etc. and not have to defend it, but don't defend it if there's nothing defensible.

 

[Cullen]

EDIT: Cullen is also closely resembles a "man."

Only closely resembles. Wonder what I'm missing to be a man.

I know, I know. Being careful in case I wasn't a "he". It's all good. Been there myself.

of course, you don't want to look too close at my signature...

It's good to see Quesada and JMS *supposedly* admit their shortcomings in regards to the Spidey books, but I'll reserve judgement until the change actually happens.

Yeah. Judging by what's being said, that's the way I'm leaning, too.

 

[Cullen]

"Just about"?

Tell it like it is!!


I don't even need to say anything here, do I?


Naturally.

No need for comment here.

Damn it, Cullen, shut your word-hole.

Now we both know how likely that is, now don't we?

Those are very good points. While I still believe "good" and "bad" are subjective to an extent in most situations (I'm not a moral relativist, don't worry), some value judgements are accepted by concensus, and individuals' preferences do not change the value judgement. You can like something that's crappily written/drawn/directed/acted/etc. and not have to defend it, but don't defend it if there's nothing defensible.

It depends on how you're defending it, but in the main you are correct.

...

"Just about?"

 

[Herr Logan]

"Just about"? No need for comment here.
Now we both know how likely that is, now don't we?
It depends on how you're defending it, but in the main you are correct.

...

"Just about?"

"Just about," as in "close enough."



Looks like the brawlin' in this here thread died out. Damn shame, but that's the price of winning... the other side has to take their ball and go home.