Stan Lee shouldn't get credit for the creation of the Silver Surfer!

[Carp Man]

Stan created the concept of the FF. That is not a disputable fact. Jack put ink, and pencil to Stan's idea. It was a joint effort. Without Stan's idea, no FF, without Jack's drawings, no FF. I get tired of arguing Stan or Jack. Marvel was created, and all the charactors we're created. They are better as a stable then any other comic empire, and that is the bottom line. I don't give a rats ass whos idea was whos. I am just enjoying the Marvel ride. FF is here. It is a fact, and that's all I care about. I'll leave the pissing contest to others, and just enjoy. t:

 

[Wilhelm-Scream]

I don't give a rats ass whos idea was whos.

Some people do.
Especially in light of how Marvel raped Jack, abused him, wouldn't let him have his art back even while others were selling their own stuff for millions, and while they were using his pages as coasters, and literally letting it burn up, and taking his sketches from the storyboards for the Fantastic Four cartoon, and inking and publishing them, and touting it as "Jack's and Stan Lee's triumphant return to the Fantastic Four!!" while thanking Jack for doing it, even though JACK HAD NO IDEA THEY WERE DOING IT until after it was published, and said very clearly that he would've never agreed to it had they ACTUALLY asked him instead of blatantly lying about it.

It's criminal.

 

[Carp Man]

Some people do.
Especially in light of how Marvel raped Jack, abused him, wouldn't let him have his art back even while others were selling their own stuff for millions, and while they were using his pages as coasters, and literally letting it burn up, and taking his sketches from the storyboards for the Fantastic Four cartoon, and inking and publishing them, and touting it as "Jack's and Stan Lee's triumphant return to the Fantastic Four!!" while thanking Jack for doing it, even though JACK HAD NO IDEA THEY WERE DOING IT until after it was published, and said very clearly that he would've never agreed to it had they ACTUALLY asked him instead of blatantly lying about it.

It's criminal.

There is no question Jack got screwed somehow, but since none of us we're prvy to the exact circumstances, it's a he said, she said.

 

[Dragon]

Maybe if Jack got off of his high horse and teamed with Stan, who was ALSO being screwed by the work-for-hire agreement, they'd have both benefited.

 

[Wilhelm-Scream]

I...guess you skimmed over the part I just posted about how Stan Lee published Jack's work without his permission and lied, saying that Jack was all for it. X 1,000

A person who would do that would be the last person I'd ever "team with".

 

[highguard]

^^^ Well wilhelm it may be that Stan was not involved at all. And as someone said ealier if they had stuck together no doubt both would have benefited more.

Stan tried suing marvel a while back, I have no idea how that turned out. However think of this those guys were the creators of characters that are going to earn billions for shareholders somewhere, and yet because of the work for hire arrangements they and their relatives will see none of that, weird but that's a contract for you.

Even after them raping Jack and using Stan to do it sometimes it would seem it took the emergence of Image comics in the 90s to really see the work for hire contracts really start to tilt towards the creators in terms of compensation. Image also led to renewed interests in creator owned imprints at the major comapanies.

Ultimately I think Marvel owes both Stan and Jack a great deal, they are two sides of the same coin. Its just that Stan was the insider and Jack the man looking in. Its always hard on the latter, which is why even today Jack got short changed. Would they have to cut out a stan lee cameo entirely, no cause he has always been the face of the company, even when they were raping him as well. That is what companies do. Birds of a feather maybe. You see it in Stan's interviews, he knows how to present himself, its always the company first, even if in the background (courts) he is trying to get his.

I wish I was a fly on the wall to see who was there and what was said when the kirby scene was being discussed. They cut that out which tells me they don't know that Jack is loved just as much as Stan. Tim knows but as you can see birds of a feather flock together. Fox certainly has a company first culture and the spirit of kirby got kicked to the curb when cuts had to be made.

Tells you that sometimes things never change.

Lets hope Tim can give kirby some kind of nod this time around and make it stick, if not bring it in the directors cut of FF1, let the suits play it up on the DVD's cover or something, do something to show the fans that they get it.

 

[Iron Maiden]

I agree, highguard...I think people forget the ownership of Marvel is something that Stan hasn't ever had that big of a hand in. There were the years when Marvel as a company got screwed by Ron Perelman and his financial hocus pocus that almost put them under.

What I sometimes resent is how Avi Arad sometimes puts himself out there like he actually had something to do with the Marvel Universe's creation.

Anyway, I love both Stan and Jack for what they contributed. What would be a good idea is if they cast Chaz Palmientieri (who somewhat ressembles Jack Kirby), gave him a big cigar, gave his character the name of "Jack" and have him try and crash the wedding scene too!

 

[Dragon]

I...guess you skimmed over the part I just posted about how Stan Lee published Jack's work without his permission and lied, saying that Jack was all for it. X 1,000

A person who would do that would be the last person I'd ever "team with".

Why is it that you insist on blaming Stan for every evil under the sun, yet you don't call Kirby on any of his failings? Again- He tried to take credit for Spider-Man when he had nothing to do with the character we all know and love now other than drawing the cover of his first appearance?

For that matter, the character he worked on predating Spider-Man, the Silver Spider wasn't even his original concept but Joe Simon's. And yet Jack took credit. And yet, I'm certainly not saying Jack is evil for doing this.

 

[Wilhelm-Scream]

Why is it that you insist on blaming Stan for every evil under the sun, yet you don't call Kirby on any of his failings? Again- He tried to take credit for Spider-Man when he had nothing to do with the character we all know and love now other than drawing the cover of his first appearance?

For that matter, the character he worked on predating Spider-Man, the Silver Spider wasn't even his original concept but Joe Simon's. And yet Jack took credit. And yet, I'm certainly not saying Jack is evil for doing this.

'Cause I'm a Jack Kirby Zombie.
Jack Kirby could poo on a napkin and I'd buy it for $1,000.
Jack Kirby himself could walk up to me and say, "You know, I didn't create Hell Boy." and I'd say, "Oh, you're just being modest. Of course you did, Jack!"

But seriously, from my decades of obsessive study on this stuff, it's my opinion that Jack's inaccuracies are almost completely the result of his awkward communication skills, confusion, old age, faulty memory, being carried away with indignant emotion, etc.....

Whereas Stan's inaccuracies started all the way back in the late 60's, when they were both still relatively young men, and are almost always the very conscious result of obfuscation, manipulation and outright dishonesty.

That's my assessment. You can get conflicting reports from people that were at Marvel contemporaneously, and people who were close with Jack, and with Stan, so the conflict will never be solved.....but It's my feeling that Stan has always known exactly what he was doing, and Jack was a weird kind of savant who hasn't.
I think Stan IS an evil man, a very gregarious, likeable, charismatic, evil man.
Jack wasn't evil.

*shrug*

 

[bubbadoom]

Even in the '60's, the FF was recognized as a super powered version of Kirby's CHALLENGERS OF THE UNKNOWN [Jack even did a story when one of them came back from space with super powers - flame, etc. - in #3, 1958!] so any FANTASTIC FOUR book with out Jack would have been very different; probably an AVENGERS style teaming of Captain America, Human Torch, and Sub Mariner, since Goodman wanted a Justice League type book.

 

[Cyrusbales]

stan lee sometimes gets credit for creating wolverine as well!!! Amatuer fans

 

[Kirk Langstrom]

Without Kirby, Stan co-created Spider-Man, Dr Strange and Daredevil. I'd say that outweighs Kirby's own creations.

And She-Hulk.

Musn't forget She-Hulk.

 

[Guyverjay]

Spider-man outweighs Kirbys own creations by himself

 

[highguard]

^^^^^ Ummmmmm


No!

 

[Kirk Langstrom]

Anyway; Guys, we shouldn't make this into a "Jack vs Stan" war.

There's no denying that they worked TOGETHER on Fantastic Four, and literally changed the way comics were written and perceived from that point in history to this very day.

Now, their creations are finally getting mainstream attention.

We should be celebrating BOTH men's contributions. :heart:

Not reduce ourselves to petty arguements.

 

[Guyverjay]

^^^^^ Ummmmmm


No!

Er YES

Don't see King Kirbys creations in the big three

 

[Wilhelm-Scream]

Spider-man outweighs Kirbys own creations by himself

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Spoken like a true Dragonball Z fan.

uh...NO.

 

[Guyverjay]

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Spoken like a true Dragonball Z fan.

uh...NO.

I see you've read my sig

You're getting confused (hardly surprising considering you have the IQ of a placenta) you mean spoken by a true Spider-man fan

 

[Carp Man]

Anyway; Guys, we shouldn't make this into a "Jack vs Stan" war.

There's no denying that they worked TOGETHER on Fantastic Four, and literally changed the way comics were written and perceived from that point in history to this very day.

Now, their creations are finally getting mainstream attention.

We should be celebrating BOTH men's contributions. :heart:

Not reduce ourselves to petty arguements.

Amen. Nuff Said.

 

[gerbstat]

Amen. Nuff Said.

What they said, True Believers...

 

[Tony Stark]

I agree, highguard...I think people forget the ownership of Marvel is something that Stan hasn't ever had that big of a hand in. There were the years when Marvel as a company got screwed by Ron Perelman and his financial hocus pocus that almost put them under.

What I sometimes resent is how Avi Arad sometimes puts himself out there like he actually had something to do with the Marvel Universe's creation.

Anyway, I love both Stan and Jack for what they contributed. What would be a good idea is if they cast Chaz Palmientieri (who somewhat ressembles Jack Kirby), gave him a big cigar, gave his character the name of "Jack" and have him try and crash the wedding scene too!

Although Avi's current position is quite different from his own, he was extremely nessisary in bringing Marvel out of the depths of bankrupcy.

Think of it like Apple computers. Steve Jobs created Apple but ultimately his decisions durring the 80's were very devistating for the company, and the company was owned by multiple shareholders. Ultimately it was a guy who made soft drinks who brought them back from the bring. Now Steve is back with the company, but for a long time Steve wasn't servicing the company.

Marvel is not like DC, they are a publically traded company, and ultimately have to answer to the share holders. DC is given a budget to work with from DC and ultimately have to answer to Warner, but there isn't the kind of financial scruitiny that Marvel faces because no one can buy shares of DC.

Yeah Avi does act like he created the characters, but he had to. He's not talking to the comic fans, he's promoting the company and producing intrest in the company for the shareholders.

 

[Lt. Figgnuts]

IMO, they should both recieve credit.

Kirby should get the lion's share no doubt, as without that design Lee would never have thought to create the character.

But the character's motivation, nobility, and personality itself can all be acredited to why the character was (is?) so popular, and I think Lee deserves lot of credit for that portion of it.

 

[50yroldfffan]

while I wouldn't call Stan evil I would have to agree with a lot of what you have said. If the the others would read the Ronin Book "Tales to Astonish" you come away thinking Stan was a user and self promoter.
Nepatism got Stan the Job at Marvel not talent, now please don't get me wrong Stan was a wordsman and did contribute ideas but the real talent was in Marvels artist's they told the stories in their art.
That was the Marvel way, thats why artist's like working for the company they had more control of the way the story was told.

'Cause I'm a Jack Kirby Zombie.
Jack Kirby could poo on a napkin and I'd buy it for $1,000.
Jack Kirby himself could walk up to me and say, "You know, I didn't create Hell Boy." and I'd say, "Oh, you're just being modest. Of course you did, Jack!"

But seriously, from my decades of obsessive study on this stuff, it's my opinion that Jack's inaccuracies are almost completely the result of his awkward communication skills, confusion, old age, faulty memory, being carried away with indignant emotion, etc.....

Whereas Stan's inaccuracies started all the way back in the late 60's, when they were both still relatively young men, and are almost always the very conscious result of obfuscation, manipulation and outright dishonesty.

That's my assessment. You can get conflicting reports from people that were at Marvel contemporaneously, and people who were close with Jack, and with Stan, so the conflict will never be solved.....but It's my feeling that Stan has always known exactly what he was doing, and Jack was a weird kind of savant who hasn't.
I think Stan IS an evil man, a very gregarious, likeable, charismatic, evil man.
Jack wasn't evil.

*shrug*

 

[50yroldfffan]

Carp man I agree lets enjoy the Marvel ride but what sucks is when I read in Wizard stan saying "The surfer was one of his fav characters of the hundreds "he" created" no mention of Jack!
That just shows to this day Kirby is still getting screwed by Stan.
Stans taking credit for a character he didn't create Jack was the soul creater of the Silver Surfer. Yes Stan fleshed him out more after Jacks departure from Marvel but in a way Kirby was not happy with. Thats why when the Sufer comic stumbled after umpteen issues Kirby would not come in to save it after his return to Marvel. He felt they ruined his creation and made him soft and to human plus the story lines just sucked ha ha. Kirby would have kept him a larger almost god like cosmic figure in amazing adventures only Jacks mind could have created.

There is no question Jack got screwed somehow, but since none of us we're prvy to the exact circumstances, it's a he said, she said.

 

[Kirk Langstrom]

Carp man I agree lets enjoy the Marvel ride but what sucks is when I read in Wizard stan saying "The surfer was one of his fav characters of the hundreds "he" created" no mention of Jack!
That just shows to this day Kirby is still getting screwed by Stan.

Not really John. In Wizard's current issue #184, pg. #93, Stan had this to say in regards to Jack Kirby:

"It was always so easy to write a Jack Kirby story! He was the greatest visual storyteller ever. I was able to put just a few words on a piece of paper, and Jack would go draw what i wrote, and a million other things i never even thought of. That's what made it so easy. By the time it came back to me for dialogue and captions, it was almost a brand new story. He was the greatest guy to work with because of that."


'nuff said?