Stan Lee shouldn't get credit for the creation of the Silver Surfer!

[Wilhelm-Scream]

'Cause that's what this thread is about.
Check out the title, and then stop and think about it to make sure you really want to enter it before you click on it again.

It's offering a stance, taking a position on an either/or thing, as in a debate.
I mean, what you just said is like if a Gay guy kept going into the Hottie thread and saying "Why do you keep posting pics of scantily clad ladies with big breasts?!? We don't care about them!"

 

[Kirk Langstrom]

Oh my God.
I was as clueless as some of you as well until I started reading The Jack Kirby Collector.
It's so frustrating to read such erroneous opinions presented with such self-assuredness.

I'm not even talking about Kirby interviews.
I'm talking about STAN LEE interviews from the 70's.
My disgust with him is based on his own words and actions.
I have the transcript where he says that he thought Jack had lost his freaking mind when he presented the character THAT HE CREATED OUT OF NOTHINGNESS...and how he totally despised the idea of the surfboard, and including the surfboard in the name.

That's odd because comic historian Jordan Raphael notes that at that particular time... "Like the fans, Lee too, was falling in love with the cosmic scope and authority of Kirby's stellar output, and particularly with his visually compelling characters, such as the nearly translucent Silver Surfer."

Keep in mind a couple of things: Back in the day, lots of people in the Industry were jealous of Stan's ever-growing spotlight in the media. Gary Groth, an interviewer for The Comics Journal was believed to be egging the elderly Jack Kirby on in his Interviews regarding his and Stan's creativity in regards to Marvel characters, and Stan threatened The Comics Journal with a lawsuit over it.

Also; Jack began to down play Stan's involvement in the creation of The Fantastic Four, until Roy Thomas reprinted a copy of FF #1 in his fanzine, Alter Ego. This script clearly showed BOTH men's involvement and input into the FF we all know and love today.

So again; There's really no need for all this "my dad can beat up YOUR dad" discussion. Both men deserve acknowledgement.

 

[Wilhelm-Scream]

I know Stan finally came around and ended up loving SS.
I merely bring up the interview with him that I read (where he said initially he thought the idea was bonkers), to highlight the fact that Jack created him, and then Stan took it from there, kind of like how Chris Claremont didn't "create" Cyclops, but added a lot to the already created character.

So depending on semantics and "how you want to look at it", yeah, Chris Claremont "created" Cyclops, and Stan Lee "created" the Silver Surfer.

 

[Arkady Rossovich]

Especially in light of how Marvel raped Jack, abused him, wouldn't let him have his art back even while others were selling their own stuff for millions, and while they were using his pages as coasters, and literally letting it burn up, and taking his sketches from the storyboards for the Fantastic Four cartoon, and inking and publishing them, and touting it as "Jack's and Stan Lee's triumphant return to the Fantastic Four!!" while thanking Jack for doing it, even though JACK HAD NO IDEA THEY WERE DOING IT until after it was published, and said very clearly that he would've never agreed to it had they ACTUALLY asked him instead of blatantly lying about it.

It's criminal.

Indeed.I have heard much stories about how Jack Kirby was more involved with his creations than we may realise.Some may say "He`s a artist,the greatest...but just an artist." but i think he had a hand in some of Stan`s ideas.God knows what else Jack Kirby`s family rightfully deserves...

 

[Arkady Rossovich]

Especially in light of how Marvel raped Jack, abused him, wouldn't let him have his art back even while others were selling their own stuff for millions, and while they were using his pages as coasters, and literally letting it burn up, and taking his sketches from the storyboards for the Fantastic Four cartoon, and inking and publishing them, and touting it as "Jack's and Stan Lee's triumphant return to the Fantastic Four!!" while thanking Jack for doing it, even though JACK HAD NO IDEA THEY WERE DOING IT until after it was published, and said very clearly that he would've never agreed to it had they ACTUALLY asked him instead of blatantly lying about it.

It's criminal.

Indeed.I have heard much stories about how Jack Kirby was more involved with his creations than we may realise.Some may say "He`s a artist,the greatest...but just an artist." but i think he had a hand in some of Stan`s ideas.God knows what else Jack Kirby`s family rightfully deserves...

 

[highguard]

^^^ i think the sentiment of the thread is that Kirby has not gotten his due. There is some merit in that.

Now Fox and Marvel can change that, if they want to.

Someone mentioned the dedication. Ok maybe its too late for this film but by FF3 story if he delivers should be able to put in whatever tribute he wants.

 

[gerbstat]

I know the story about how Jack just put the Surfer in there. I've read all the accounts. However there's never been a thing to come out that would dissuade me from thinking Stan doesn't deserve partial credit.

I think it's too easy in this day and age to demonize personalities and generalize issues while pursuing conspiratorial slants on the story.

Whatever his faults, Stan was the figure head with bravado and charisma to bring spotlight on the other talents at Marvel.

Stan was the PT Barnum of comics.

Truer words were never spoken. This is Stan's genius and claim to fame.

 

[gerbstat]

Six words and a smiley:

Dragon doesn't know his comics history.

Two words: Captain America...

 

[Noir]

Okay.. your right.. We'll just give Jack a cameo.. Oh, wait..

Jack was given credit for Created them along with Stan, what else do you want? Jack Kirby's Characters he created with Stan Lee Fantastic Four: Rise of the Silver Surfer. You can't really do all that many interveiws or anything with a dead guy, but if you want to throw that big of a fit about it I guess we could do a Brando from SR

 

[gerbstat]

IMO its as simple as this: There should be a credit in the opening titles saying "Based on characters created by Jack Kirby & Stan Lee"

The order is alphabetical and font sizes should be the same. Period.

And when the next Captain America movie comes out, it should have the title "Characters created by Jack Kirby & Joe Simon". Stan's credit there could be "Prodigiously promoted by Stan (The Man) Lee".

Or maybe Neel Nats?

 

[Vartha]

I agree whole heartedly on that Gerb.

 

[Doctor of Doom]

The problem is that most of this discussion makes perfect sense for a Silver Surfer movie. But at the end of the day, this is a Fantastic Four movie. The Fantastic Four have always gone down- whether KirbyFans like it or not, as "Created by Stan Lee and Jack Kirby"- it generally goes writer first, artist second. It doesn't say anything about importance. The average viewer does not go "Oh, that guy's name is second, he must suck!" Now if the artist did much more than the writer, á la the Surfer- then putting his name first could be merited. But as I say, this is FF- NOT Silver Surfer. And putting Jack first just because he made the Surfer is like putting Todd McFarlane's name first and prominently in Spidey 3 because he made Venom!

 

[Noir]

The problem is that most of this discussion makes perfect sense for a Silver Surfer movie. But at the end of the day, this is a Fantastic Four movie. The Fantastic Four have always gone down- whether KirbyFans like it or not, as "Created by Stan Lee and Jack Kirby"- it generally goes writer first, artist second. It doesn't say anything about importance. The average viewer does not go "Oh, that guy's name is second, he must suck!" Now if the artist did much more than the writer, á la the Surfer- then putting his name first could be merited. But as I say, this is FF- NOT Silver Surfer. And putting Jack first just because he made the Surfer is like putting Todd McFarlane's name first and prominently in Spidey 3 because he made Venom!

Exactamundo.

 

[Malus]

The problem is that most of this discussion makes perfect sense for a Silver Surfer movie. But at the end of the day, this is a Fantastic Four movie. The Fantastic Four have always gone down- whether KirbyFans like it or not, as "Created by Stan Lee and Jack Kirby"- it generally goes writer first, artist second. It doesn't say anything about importance. The average viewer does not go "Oh, that guy's name is second, he must suck!" Now if the artist did much more than the writer, á la the Surfer- then putting his name first could be merited. But as I say, this is FF- NOT Silver Surfer. And putting Jack first just because he made the Surfer is like putting Todd McFarlane's name first and prominently in Spidey 3 because he made Venom!

Have to agree.

Back in the 80's, there was actually a trade ad in Variety advertising the never-to-be-made Captain America movie fron Cannon films. And of course, it read "Captain America created by Stan Lee."
The mistake was pointed out to Cannon and was supposed to be corrected, but it didn't matter since nothing more came of it.

Unfortunately this was during Kirby's long legal battle with Marvel, so he probably saw it.

 

[Iron Maiden]

Wow, I didn't know about that but once again I would blame the studio PR departments since they are notorious for getting things wrong. I doubt if Stan wrote the copy for the ad !

 

[Malus]

Wow, I didn't know about that but once again I would blame the studio PR departments since they are notorious for getting things wrong. I doubt if Stan wrote the copy for the ad !

No, it was definitely some studio PR person who (like so many) assume that everything Marvel was "created by Stan Lee."
I'm sure Stan was embarrassed when and if he found out.

 

[HoratioRome]

I'm sorry but I dissagree with you about that last line. Darkseid was indeed fairly well known to comics fans as was the Fourth World saga. Kirby had just started back w/DC and people were curious. Especially when he decided to tackle the mythology he had been so successful at Marvel with - Thor and the Gods of Asgard - and give them a fresh start in a science fiction vein.



No, again I have to disagree. Superman, Batman, Spiderman, Captain America, Wonder Woman, the Joker ... those are all household names. Dr. Doom and Darkseid are only household names in houses like mine. That's changing with all the new movies. Being the inspiration for Darth Vader only proves that he was a household name in the Lucas home. The general audience neither knew nor cared.



Yes, I think it's sad that those fans refuse to acknowledge Stan's input. With lesser dialogue, SS would have just been a throw-away character no matter how cool he looked.

Well I'm in the camp that says that BOTH men deserve equal credit. I have to admit that I never liked kirby's art reading comics growing up as a kid. That is until I started re-reading his comics as an adult.
Now, Jack the KING Kirby is my all time favorite, GREATEST artis in comics history.
I had no idea how much of a genius the man was.
However, It is equally foolish not to recognize Stan Lee's contribution. The FACT remains that Jack was never able to duplicate his success without Stan Lee, but Stan Lee was able to do so without Jack.

Sorry, but no way is or was Darkseid as successful, impactful, important, popular, or as recognized as Dr.Doom or any of the classic MU characters that he and Lee worked on together.

sorry that's just the facts.