Storm, Correcting Singer, and What Exactly?

[OncomingStorm]

I always confused with this threads because I can never tell if it's hatred towards Halle and her portrayl of Storm or is it the writing and the direction of the character that people don't like...

A movie is a movie and it's for enjoyment, if you find so many things about it that you don't like then don't watch it???

I mean all the characters in the X-Men trilogy were under-utilized except Wolverine of course. Jean could have done SOOO much more, Mystique could have done SOOO much more, Storm could have DONE WAY MUCH MORE, but it's all about choices and budget and sometimes those two things don't work together well.

In my opinion, Storm would be the first female comic book character to have a great successful movie. Elektra, Catwoman all had great ideas but didn't deliver. Now, besides casting, I think a Storm film would be great...

Hopefully in the director's cut, Ratner will put that AFRICA line back in the balcony scene, because having Professor met Storm on the balcony was rather pointless...

 

[Primal Slayer]

I doubt it...

Xavier was the only one whom could save her by suppressing her and Logan was just a hot and heavy loverboy who thinks he is a big shot. Storm was pissed at Jean "She has chosen her side" and I don't think gave a flying f bomb what she did.

I think that Storm would have had a little effect on Jean, they were on the team together for god knows how long and in X2 seemed like they had a what seemed like "best friend" or "sisterly" relationship.

Its just like if it were Cyclops, Jean was still alive while Phoenix was in control, and she probably would have tried to push foward more to regain control, making Phoenix somewhat weaker to the point where Jean wouldnt let Phoenix demolcularize him.

 

[chaseter]

Your right, watching the genocidal murders of alot of people had nothing to do with Storm's somewhat dislike of Jean...

You know what I mean...Storm couldn't have done anything about it and rightfully didn't. Storm knew Jean had killed people and was pissed off at her and didn't care that she had choose the bad side with Magneto. All she knew was that she was going to have to defend everybody against Magneto and his army. Plus I am sure she was like "OH *****...she just ashed 100 people I am getting the hell out of here!" Wolverine said get everyone out of here...well they have legs, the can walk their own @sses out of trouble. Storm didn't do anything to help them get out...she flew her @ss to safety.

 

[Lightning Strykez!]

Wolverine said get everyone out of here...well they have legs, the can walk their own @sses out of trouble. Storm didn't do anything to help them get out...she flew her @ss to safety.

You know that for sure? Or are you just piggy-backing on the jestful commentaries of the DVD?

 

[chaseter]

You know that for sure? Or are you just piggy-backing on the jestful commentaries of the DVD?

The only commentary I have listened to was of the deleted scenes...in which they sounded like pompous prick @ssholes...especially Ratner...so I didn't listen to any other commentary. It is pretty much logic. You see everyone running out on their own two legs. No parapalegics were on that island and everyone inside was killed or thrown off the ledge to be saved by their winged son. Pretty much only army personnel was on the island, and of course the attacking mutants. Either Storm got the hell out of their or she was flying around in the air saying "COME THIS WAY...blah blah blah." She didn't do any attacks to Jean and everyone else was defeated...so what is their left for her to do? Everyone else but Wolverine got the hell out of the way.

 

[Lightning Strykez!]

The only commentary I have listened to was of the deleted scenes...in which they sounded like pompous prick @ssholes...especially Ratner...so I didn't listen to any other commentary. It is pretty much logic. You see everyone running out on their own two legs. No parapalegics were on that island and everyone inside was killed or thrown off the ledge to be saved by their winged son. Pretty much only army personnel was on the island, and of course the attacking mutants. Either Storm got the hell out of their or she was flying around in the air saying "COME THIS WAY...blah blah blah." She didn't do any attacks to Jean and everyone else was defeated...so what is their left for her to do? Everyone else but Wolverine got the hell out of the way.

It does make you wonder how the other X-Men got out of there since Phoenix trashed the X-Jet too.

And agreed on the commentary: Can you say "Self-Orgy"? Not so much the writers but Brett was getting on my nerves. If he had said "Every frame is based on the comics" one more time I was going to put my live TV set in a full bathtub and jump in myself with it. Jeez.

 

[Jennifer Walters]

It does make you wonder how the other X-Men got out of there since Phoenix trashed the X-Jet too.

And agreed on the commentary: Can you say "Self-Orgy"? Not so much the writers but Brett was getting on my nerves. If he had said "Every frame is based on the comics" one more time I was going to put my live TV set in a full bathtub and jump in myself with it. Jeez.

Yeah, I must have missed the part of the Dark Phoenix Saga, where Jean awakes as a woman with severe PMS that goes around killing Scott and the Professor.

 

[The Guard]

Storm goes nowhere in X3. She starts out as a very militant mutant in a way to being that way. Her world is essentially black and white, unlike the previous films.

Going from expressing Anger over her persecution to having faith in others is not character development, Beau. It's characterization, period. She doesn't get a whole lot of character development per se, in these movies, but we do see the development of some strong characterization aspects.

Storm here has no symapthy, none whatsoever, for the girl she grew up with's bout with insanity; she just sthrows her to the wind.

Which Beast then counters with "is it cowardice to...", and makes Storm think about her position. And good, because that was one of the most important "talking points" of the film. Storm's not perfect. She's been portrayed as having been angry about her persecution and forced assimilation since X-MEN, what we see in X3 is CONSISTENT with her movie character from X2 and X3. Her anger at the cure is logical. And her lines about "what kind of coward..." serve to make the audience think...is the cure really a bad thing?

She b*tches out Logan no less then 3 times in the film, even after he returns to let them know of Magneto's plan. And that's about it. She has no resolution to an arc that was never started for her.

*****es him out? I don't know if I'd call it that every time. He deserves it after the Danger Room stunt. After that, se's concerned, and she realizes that he's troubled, but that someone needs to tell him how it is, in terms of the reality of the situation.

In terms of 'things done':

1) She flies around and saves Logan in the Danger Room, about the equivelant to her saving Rogue, despite the fact that it looks slightly silly and is really underwhelming.

She also is apparently intsructing the X-Men in the Danger Room and tries to corral Logan's irresponsible behavior and to teach him the importance of teamwork. She later berates him, and at the end of the film, he does come to see that she was right all along. This is something Storm's character "does" in the film, and it plays a key role.

2) She clears the cloud cover at Alkali Lake so they can see Jean.

I believe she also flies the X-Jet again. And FINDS Jean.

3) She spirals around and blows away the Hot Topic Mutants at Jean's House, only to have herself effectively beaten by Callisto afterwards.

Every character in X-Men has gotten their ass handed to them multiple times, so this is hardly a minus in her category. Callisto was portrayed as a very capable and very powerful mutant. In this sequence, Storm engages in a far more prolonged physical (and far more capable) action sequence than she had previously, and this was a major point of improvement as far as she goes as relating more to her character from the comics. And she had clearly mastered "flight" a lot better in X3.

4) At Alcatraz, she rains down lightining as the X-Men arrive.

I believe she also flies the Jet to Alcatraz, and creates fog so they can appear with more of an element of surprise. She doesn't just rain down lightning. She actually SEPERATES the Brotherhood from the Army, allowing the X-Men to help turn the tide of the battle.

5) She battles Callisto and kills her.

In a physically capable role. She shows a lot more of her "warrior" side in the battle sequence (even in terms of emoting, thankfully), an improvement (in terms of faithfulness) than what we had seen from her in past films in that regard.

6) Using fog to help aid Colossus, Beast, and Logan attack Magneto

That's it there.

Which was an important aspect of their "teamwork". Each using their talents, a la X-MEN.

Also, you forgot to mention her discussion with Xavier, and her later forum with Beast, Iceman, and her deciding to keep the school open and run it in Xavier's absence. That's a pretty big plot point and part to play in the mythos.

To me, this clearly establishes that not only was Storm handled better (perhaps not to your liking) but certainly better in both X1 and X2, but that in X1 she was given about the same amount to do as in X3 -- and that in X2, althoug "two down" in terms of power usage, her actions were far more awe-inspiring (tornado hurricane or lightining blasts on Alcatraz...) and relevant than in X3.

It's down to opinion, but I think any fan would agree Storm resembled the Storm of the comics more in X3. And I think it'd be hard to argue that her character (I.E, the writing of it, not neccessarily the execution of it) did not have a lot of relevance and value in ANY X-Men film, regardless of the size of her role. The three movies form a clear vision of who Storm is in the X-Men movieverse, and she's a pretty impressively written and conceived character (character flaws and all).

Storm has not been portrayed perfectly, in any way shape or form. But what was done in X2 built on what was one in X-MEN, and what was done in X3 built on what we saw in X2. That's how these films have worked for EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER, not just Storm. There was definitely something done with Storm in X3 that we did not neccessarily see in X-MEN or X2. The most obvious movement was that they made her into the warrior fans had been clamoring for. The take-no-prisoners-warrior, and they did so without losing the mother/mentor/teacher aspect of her.

So, I guess I'm wondering, using Storm as a lighining post for this larger idea, how exactly did Ratner IMPROVE upon the alleged flaws of Singer's films?

You all need to stop this "Singer VS. Ratner" bull****. It's childish and pathetic. Both of them brought something to the table the other didn't, and both of them managed to bring some of the same things.

Ratner's version of Storm was a step in the right direction with the following:

*Storm IS a militant personality who only sees things in black and white

*He completed her "Choose A Side" arc with Logan--who eventually listened to her guidance

*Ratner definitely tapped into her emotional connection with the weather (as evidenced in her dialogue with Xavier on the balcony)

*He showed that Storm respected Scott's leadership, humbly taken aback at the very notion of taking over in his absence

*Scenes such "Storm Creates A Wave" along with the various flight sequences demonstrate that Ratner wasn't afraid to show the woman's true power potential--even taking her to near-"Goddess" levels.

*Most importantly, Ratner brought back the furious side of Storm's personality. When she arrives at Alcatraz, gritting her teeth in anger it looks like something lifted from a comic panel. That same fury is demonstrated several other times throughout the film.

The above and more is much closer in keeping with the character of the comics than the softer, passive thing we got in the first two films.

I agree. Storm in X3 absolutely resembled the Storm of the comics more than previous versions did. But I also think that what she was in X3 works so well only after having seen where she came from in X-MEN and X2. In X3, Storm's "change" feels logical, and you can understand WHY she's angry and why she values Xavier's school. Why? Because of what we saw built in X-MEN and X2.

I do credit Singer for tapping into her sensitivity, and I will agree that much of the compassion (i.e. her demanding conversation with Rogue) was lost from X1 and X2.

But what WASN'T lost was the character's inherent anger, (fear?), and distrust of humans. Both were seen in X-MEN and X2. And it showed up in X3.

And Ratner failed in making Logan tower over Xavier's one remaining senior faculty member--filling a leadership role that only Scott or Storm should have handled.

After her performance of the eulogy, I shudder to think of Halle Berry delivering "And hold this line!" Storm takes over the damned school. She will carry on Xavier's dream. Why is it such a big deal that the character the films have developed as a reluctant leader gives the "X-Men. All of us" speech and leads the human soldiers into battle? Actually, it makes more SENSE thematically that it's Logan doing it, since he clearly used to not want to be an X-Man and to serve the world that hated and feared mutants, and didn't always buy into Xavier's dream or Xavier's methods. It's a hell of a character development over three films, and it was fairly subtle, considering. And kind of touching.

In the original Dark Phoenix Saga Jean wasn't obliterating her dearest friends. Therefore, there was added motive for behavior of the survivors.

Agreed. Hell, Dark Phoenix even scared Wolverine. And when you're scared of the unknown, you react in a variety of ways (another major theme of the film), not all of them positive.

Besides, if she's truly schizo, half of Jean should've cared. There really was no struggle between her two sides in this film--the only time she softened was when she was dry humping Logan in the lab and right before he stabbed her. Aside from that? To hell with the X-Men and all the world!

There is indeed a struggle. It's just not hitting you over the head with a lot of "Now I'm struggling with myself" dialogue. But Famke played the moments when it's happening to her character wonderfully and subtly.

They were at war--complete with casualties--and Storm suddenly had an entire mansion of children to manage and refocus. Jean was the reason for all these changes, hence Storm's black-and-white view of matters. I think if Jean had beckoned to Storm, Hank and Logan for assistance Storm would've reacted differently. But she didn't.

Exactly. Storm's response is perfectly logical. Would it have been nice to have seen a scene where Storm bemoans the loss of the Jean they knew? Sure. But how many such scenes can there be in a film?

Who knows? We weren't given any insight into her mind. You'd think she'd be a bit more tied to her longtime friends than the Johnnie-come-lately that is Logan.

As I live in a world where both males and females constantly more tied to "Johnny-come-latelys" than their longtime friends, I find this statement hilarious.

But no. She fries both husband-to-be and proverbial father figure and we saw no remorse. None. Not even from "Jean".

Except the whole...you know...fact that when she remembered what she'd done, she came unhinged and essentially began to rage against everything. "Kill me...kill me before I kill someone else" strikes me as pretty remorseful.

The balance was lost. And Storm realized that. That's why she wisely warned Logan to leave her alone. But no, he felt there was 'still good in her'. Yeah, so much good that he stabbed her as soon as he got a chance.

So much inconsistency here that it makes my head spin.

He did not stab her as soon as he got the chance. He waited for her to ask him for release from whatever force inside her caused Dark Phoenix. It's not inconsistent at all. Logan wanted to save Jean's soul, not neccessarily her body, or her life. Once you take that into account, Logan killing her makes perfect sense.

That is the only bit of teamwork in both X1 and X2. Plus, it was executed extremely poorly.

What about Storm's teamwork with Nightcrawler in X2? And Magneto's teamwork with the X-Men? And the Brotherhood's teamwork in X-MEN?

 

[X-Maniac]

Storm was 'lacking' in all three movies, in my view, if they are looked at individually. Add them together and Storm is much more acceptable and rounded.

In the next X-movie, I would like to see her longer hair back (in the black-rooted, grey-ish colouring of X3) and I'd like to see her put on an intercom device that is a nod to her comicbook head-dress/tiara. And if we don't get an origin sequence this time, I'm going to chew my toenails off.

 

[Lightning Strykez!]

You've been missed Guard.

 

[The Guard]

What?! Storm can create winds powerful and precise enough for her to fly on steadily and yet she can't do that to Cyclops? It was clear that Singer hadn't done his research on Storm at that time and didn't really care.

Or maybe Singer or his writers (you people do not give writers enough credit around here) realizes that:

A. Storm may be able to control the wind around herself when she can FEEL what effect it has on her, but can't neccessarily FEEL what effect it has on Wolverine.

B. Can't possibly SEE Wolverine that well that far up (especially with her PUPILS GONE!). To use the wind to precisely move Wolverine, she has to have some visual or SENSORY information about what she's trying to do and how the wind is affecting Wolverine, right?

THAT'S why Cyclops told Jean to "use your power to steady him". Jean, being a telepath, could, among other things, SENSE how the wind was affecting him.

While I agree that there were a few nice moments in X1 and X2, Singer never treated Storm as well as he treated the other characters.

Which is why he gave her half the important "thematic" dialogue, right?

Singer's own "selective preferential treatment" showed through with the precision Storm showed in forming those X2 tornadoes. She literally targeted those planes with twisters, remember?

No, but I remember was that she essentially tried to, and then created a minefield of tornadoes and guided the X-Jet through, hoping that the pursuing jets would either turn back or be caught in the minefield.

If she was "targeting" them, she missed pretty badly a few times.

The first jet was thrown completely off track because she created two twisters concurrently: one above and one below--each spinning towards their target.

So she can control it like that. When Singer wants her to.

Except that that's not a PRECISE wind guiding a human body to a specific location the size of a breadbox. That's a freaking tornado.

It amuses me to hear people say "she couldn't carry the accent right" as if to say most Americans have a clear idea what a real "African" accent sounds like anyway. Because Halle's lighter complexioned some have verbalized disbelief because she so-called "doesn't look (or sound) African enough.

What the hell is that about? How does one sound...African?

It's not about whether she sounded African or not for me (there are, like any thing, MANY different African dialects). It's that...whatever accent she was attempting...she couldn't HOLD it. She kept varying in her accent attempts, and it was noticeable that she couldn't hold one.

And in my opinion, X2 lost authenticity--because that's when Storm truly became "Hollywood". The clothes became more Americanized, the awful Soccer-Mom Hairdo was introduced, and the overly-powdered facial makeup was applied (notice how pale Halle looks in X2 as compared the mocha/caramel complexion of X1--what happened?).

Storm was wearing fairly "Americanized" (whatever that means, I guess only Americans show cleavage and wear tight pants or something) clothing even in X-MEN. The idea was to have "nods" to her heritage, not to have her wearing tribal clothing.

Storm became much less regal in favor of becoming more "sexy" (bouncing down the stairs with her taa-taas juggling everywhere in the camera lens).

Uh, maybe you should rewatch X-MEN, where all you see half the time is taa-taas juggling when she runs from Senator Kelly's hospital room. You act like this aspect is only seen in X2 and X3. Newsflash: Halle Berry tends to bounce, period, when she's not strapped down in leather.

And that's how Singer views Storm--she's "Sexy"--as he summed up her character on a recent telecast.

Comic book Storm IS "sexy". You'd be hard pressed to find an artist who didn't draw her that way. What's the issue with this?

And Halle was never that regal to begin with unless she was in uniform. In all three films this is the case. Why? HALLE BERRY. I'm kind of confused as to what "regal" means, anyway? To me it means capes and striking poses and not showing off your **** ALL THE TIME. But then, comic book Storm can't say that either, so...

And let's be frank: Bryan stripped Anna Paquin of her accent too. So, what was he maintaining there?

And yet, you can hear Anna Paquin either doing, or still trying to do an accent in X2 and X3. HMM..maybe it's down to the actress to portray her character after all.

I know what the accent sounds like, and in Halle's mouth, it just wasn't convincing.

Nor was it stable. She couldn't hold an accent, period.

* Is she responsible for the absence of fans blowing her hair every which way as she soared to the skies in Jean's neighborhood too?

* What about the lack of wind billowing her cape about in the deleted "Storm Creates A Wave" scene? Did Halle say, "Make my cape flaccid?"

* Is it her fault that no "twister wind" effects encircled her body as she spun down towards the house (yet magically reappeared as a cyclone when the camera pans behind the Brotherhood when she flies across the lawn?)

* And what happened to the lightning strands that usually course through her hair when she's "charged"? Did Ms. Berry have SFX drop that detail as well?

You peg things on the actress that should be attributed to 2nd unit and a rushed production.

One, her cape DOES billow as she flies upward, and is not exactly "flaccid". Two, will you explain to me why her cape SHOULD be billowing if she creates instant falling water (rain)? Does falling water (rain) make capes billow?

Regardless, she clearly shouldn't be responsible for those things. Those are conceptual changes and effects execution. But Halle SHOULD be responsible for her PERFORMANCE. Which is the crux of the issue.

She is hardly a core character in the comics too. I dont read comics, but if im not mistaken, few stories rely on Storm. She's mostly the wise-woman-who-gives-advices-and-fights-also-providing-special-effects-bonanza. I, as a Storm fan, didnt expect her to suddenly take all the time (or Logan's time) in the story. I dont think the fact she's not up central was a problem. The problem was that, not being up-central, everyone just forgot that there was a person, a character inside that wigged creator of lightning. And that that character has one of the best personalities and nuances of the franchise.

You're pretty spot-on.

If you look at X3, Halle does a series of emotions with her face. Most notably, there is Jean Grey's house when we have a close up before she fires lightning at Callisto. Then we have the gritting of the teeth as she descends, and also when she fries Callisto on the fence.

Halle could have done all of these in X2 aswell, especially in the tornado scene. Singer must have told her to just stare blankly into the camera.

Tell me you don't honestly believe that. The MOMENTS in X3 called for the "harsher" emoting. The moments in X2 didn't (except maybe for when she blew Toad away). She's preparing for BATTLE in X3, she wasn't in X-MEN and X2. That's the main difference.

Notice, during the entire franchise, she's fairly expressionless when she creates Storms...unless she's using the storm to HURT someone, when she does grit her teeth and emote a little bit. What does that tell you about Storm's character, and about how Halle Berry saw it?

I personally felt in the films that maybe the directors/producers/etc. didn't understand Storm. Like all the other characters there are different ways to interpret them and maybe they just didn't know what to do with her.

I think the people in charge of these films understood Storm, but didn't neccessarily want such an extreme version of the character onscreen (obviously they didn't, because they cast Halle Berry as Storm). They liked aspects of her from the comics (her motherhood and mentoring, her powers, her outspokeness), but let's face it, Storm in the comics is a pretty spicy, pretty colorful character. Almost, dare I say it, over the top? That wouldn't neccessarily have gelled with this version of the X-Men mythos.

I've always wondered this...why didn't Logan just cure Jean? I mean, he could've snuck it behind his back or something (he did it with Magneto, or better yet, Beast did) and then Jean would've returned to normal. Would she have to suffer for the damages and killing that she did? Maybe. But I think her ending up in a jail, as a human, would've been more dramatic than just dying all over again.

More dramatic? No, that would have just been redundant (Magneto was in jail in X2, and we also saw a ton of mutants "cured" to solve the thread they posed. Oh, look, the cure has become a "cure-all" as a plot device.

The woman could read his mind. You saw what happened when the Army tried to cure Jean. She took the cure darts (and them) apart at the molecular level. You saw how much Dark Phoenix didn't want to be CONTROLLED throughout the film. It's what pissed her off at Xavier, and it's what Magneto used to get her to side with him "That cure is meant for all of us. If we want freedom...". Do you really think she would have let Logan cure her?

Anyway, if you didn't want to go that route, and you thought, "Hey, Dark Phoenix is too powerful for the cure", then I would've liked to have seen Logan at least TRY to give her the cure.

But then she would have demolecuarized his cure dart, killed him, and then she would have caused the extinction of pretty much everything in the universe as her lust for power and lack of control continued to grow.

Add the fact that you generally don't just let someone off the hook for murdering dozens/hundreds in cinema to that and...

I mean, he did it to Magneto, the villain.

Magneto couldn't sense Logan's thoughts. Jean could.

Jean wasn't necessarily the villain but the tragically controlled person who acts out in violence because one doesn't have the choice. Just murdering Jean sort of showed that Logan (and the X-Men) didn't try hard enough to bring Jean back from the "dark side"...I think curing her (or at least trying to) would've done that.

She absolutely had a choice. She could have chosen not to use her great power, she could have chosen to be controlled, or to back down, but her "ego" wouldn't allow it. That's one of the main points of the movie, that absolute power corrupts absolutely. Jean Grey knew she couldn't control her power, that Dark Phoenix would just win out. She gave Logan one chance to save everyone AND herself, and he took it.

Yes, but Jean did say, at the end of X3, "Save me", and not "Kill me". I think Jean wanted to be saved.

I also think it would've been more dramatic for Jean to live -- knowing that she contributed to the deaths of so many people would've added so much thematic weight to her character.

The thematic weight of that is evident on her face as she says "Save me". And besides...we saw that the cure wasn't permanent.

And my point was that Logan probably should've done more to save her, hence my suggestion he use the cure.

He already tried talking her down. She wasn't having any of that. Xavier tried talking her down, she wasn't having any of that. Phoenix chose to lash out, rather than to co-exist. In the end, the use of force was the only way to keep her uncontrolled power from being a continuous destructive force.

You were on set? Wow, that's cool. You actually saw Singer saying to STorm, "You're showing too much emotion." Especially, since, you know, Singer had Cyclops collapse into Logan, who breaks down as he should at the end of X2.

Heh.

I think you're off base. An actor/actress is free to do a bit with their lines. Unless all three directors of Die Another Day, Catwoman, Swordfish though Halle Berry should be emotionless too, then I'd say that we have a problem with Halle, not Bryan Singer.

Heh.

Yes, but Logan didn't. And that was after she killed Scott. I do think Logan felt that she was still salvageable and maybe didn't towards the end, but at least he should have tried to cure her. To exhaust all of his options.

He didn't have that luxury, though, did he?

And did you notice the look of pleasure and release on her face when he stabbed her?

Exactly. Not just pleasure, not just release...but peace.

Yes. That was also Jean's desire. There were other options, options that I don't think Logan exploited.

Again, he didn't exactly have the luxury.

Storm makes an allusion to doing "something" about Jean as they're about to board the X-Jet, but nowhere does she allude, "Hey, maybe we should talk about what we're going to do about Jean...like how we're going to save her."

Their priority had to be the situation at Alcatraz. Magneto and his Brotherhood destroying innocent lives, of which Jean was now a part. Not "saving" their friend who chose to do evil things.

But no. There's no consideration for her well-being. It's like, "Well, she's went berserk, killed the professor, now she's just gone completely." I mean, WTF?

She killed Xavier, Scott AND joined Magneto and his cause. If someone kills my mentor, my friend AND joins my enemy and attempts to destroy what I believe in above all else, REGARDLESS of the relationship I USED to have with them...they are now my enemy, even if I still care about them. Because they've set themselves AGAINST me and what I believe in.

Is Jean not one of the founding members of the school, almost like a sister to Storm? And she's just going to accept the "fact" that she's gone to the "dark side" and can't come back? I was even a bit shocked that the X-Men didn't try and do anything about Pyro, since he was apart of that team once.

If your sister killed your mentor, your friend, and turned against everything you believed in, and caused you to oppose her, what would you do?

 

[The Guard]

Yeah, Wolverine. The "leader". Who the hell thought up of that? Wolverine is never the leader!

It's called character development. Wolverine's arc in these films was to go from disbelieving loner to believing leader. And Wolverine is easily a leadership kind of character, and always has been. He's entirely capable of it. It's kinda like Batman's always going "I'm not a team player" and there he is, a key cog in the Justice League. Same dynamic, almost.

I personally think Storm might've been able to convince Jean a little not to listen to Erik. She is probably Jean's closest friend and companion besides Scott. She could've reasoned with Jean.

What is she going to say that Jean would listen to? Wolverine already tried the "We'll help you" angle. Xavier tried the "We'll help you, you can't control your power and it's going to be disastrous" angle. What's Storm going to try? "Jean, I love you as a sister, now if you could please let us help you control your power because you're a danger to the universe".

Jean didn't want help. She didn't want to be controlled. So what's left for Storm to explore? What can the writers do that is new? Force? Storm fights Jean, Jean would MURDER Storm. Any attempt Storm makes to help/stop Jean becomes redundant. Because we've already seen that Jean doesn't want help, she doesn't want to be controlled, and she's willing to kill those she loves to keep her powers.

And frankly, Halle's performance of Storm's eulogy for Xavier sounded so awful, I woul dhave hated to see her emotionally reason with Jean.

I understand Pyro. However little the X-Men did to try and get him back on their side. But Jean? C'mon. She's more than just a failed student. She's ONE OF THE X-MEN! She's part of the family.

Who has just killed two members of her family. And a bunch of innocents. HMM...

I found it odd that Hank was an old member of the team and "important" to the Xavier school and family but he barely mentions or cares about Jean.

He barely offers any thoughts or theories as to how to solve Jean's condition or to help her in any way. But I think Kinberg and Penn's response to that was, "Yes, let's make him a secretary and politician, so he can't be used for that!". Brilliant move.

How's Hank going to solve Jean's condition? I'm all ears.

yeah what a uncaring family jeez. The only person they seemed to give a damn about was professor but that lasted like a day.

Exactly how many scenes with different characters do you need to see say "How could she turn evil and turn on us like this? What should we do"? before the impact of Dark Phoenix sinks in?

I'm surprised Xavier wasn't successful. Seems that whole mess could have been prevented with a single section of dialogue:

Xavier: Jean, Magneto's lying to you. He wants to use use you. He wouldn't hesitate to throw you away once he didn't need you, or try to destroy you. You saw what he did to Marie! Go ahead! Read his mind! See for yourself!

The problem is...Dark Phoenix knows what Magneto wants. And Magneto doesn't want to control her, or USE her for his own private purposes and then kill her, or anything lame like that. Magneto never asks her to do anything for him, he simply explains his cause to her. He wants the humans eradicated. Magneto's not the one telling her NOT to use her powers to their full extent, or to control herself, Xavier is. Jean WANTS to be powerful, and not to be controlled. So who is she more likely to listen to? That's why Magneto's words have an effect on her when Xavier and Magneto both try to appeal to her.

I can then see Jean slowly rising and walking up to Magneto, and quietly whispering for him to leave. Then defenestrating him out of her house. Which then proceeds into the street battle we saw earlier, triggered when Logan and Ororo see Magneto being tossed out the window. Back inside, Jean collapses on herself, mumbling "help me, what's wrong with me?" and perhaps Xavier gets a chance to try a more gentler, compassionate approach.

Xavier TRIED the gentler, more compassionate approach. Phoenix didn't want to be helped. Period.

You know what--that's a brilliant point...and something I hadn't realized before. Would Storm have been a more effective negotiator with Jean? It's really worthy of a thread discussion on its own actually.

No. Because Storm wanted Phoenix to control herself. Phoenix didn't want to. It's pretty much that simple.

. . . Storm doesn't witness any murders, let alone genocidal murders (Jean isn't deliberately attempting to exterminate an entire, specific race of people). Jean has only killed two people, and Storm is only sure of one of those deaths.

And one of those killed is the Professor, who Storm clearly loved.

What Storm doesn't know is that Jean is justified in killing Xavier, seeing as how he is responsible for everything that has gone wrong.

Hang on...Jean is justified in killing a man who tried to prevent her from becoming an evil entity by limiting her power via psychic barriers?

Funny enough, Storm is unknowingly left defending the man who ultimately deserves the blame for the atrocities committed. It kind of makes you wonder if Storm would even be willing to continue to follow Xavier if she knew of his deceitful machinations, lies, etc.

Deceitful? Lies? How so? For all we know, Jean KNEW about the psychic barriers. He mentions having SESSIONS with Jean in the past. She had to be involved in those sessions, right?

Perhaps I interpreted things differently, but it's clear to me from the flashback that even as a child Jean was rebellious, insolent and reckless.
What we saw in X3 was the same monster--only in adult formation. "Don't let it control you" seems to be the common thread her coach and mentor tried to teach her--a lesson she rejected. Apparently, Jean was never able to master control of her powers, hence his isolation of them from her concious mind. This would enable her to coexist peacefully among mankind.

In other words, Xavier's work on her may have been the only reason we ever met the Jean we loved in the first two X-films.

Exactly.

But its kinda stupid how they makethat scene look. Jeans telekenetic power that took Xavier apart has nothing to do with her telepathy power. Xavier coulnt get in her head if he tried and he did try and coulnt. Her mental powers and physical powers are very different. Why did she have such a hard time taking him out. He wasnt in her head keeping her from doingit was he?

There are two possible answers to this. One, Jean Grey was fighting herself, despite the anger and ego that caused her to lash out, not to physically hurt the ones she loved, which is also why she doesn't just blow Wolverine to dust in the end...and two, that Xavier is indeed that powerful that he was staving off her attempts to destroy him psychically. I choose to believe it's a combination of the two, that Phoenix was indeed taking over, but that Jean was fighting, or unsure of Phoenix's actions, and Xavier was helping her by using his own powers to probe her mind for the real Jean Grey, and to suppress Phoenix.

So its kinda stupid why it took her so long to take the prof out. There was nothing he could have done in his defence.

He could have controlled her use of her powers to an extent.

She had to get out of her chair yes. But she raised him out of his chair to. Is it possible she just wanted to be face to face to the man that caged her for most of her life.

She was using as much force as he allowed her to use. I think he knew that in the end, she was going to destroy his physical body, but he also knew that he was strong enough to reach her mind...and her soul.

However, Xavier transferred his frickin consciousness to another body in another part of the frickin country. Can you say...astral plane? FPRIVATE "TYPE=PICT;ALT=" That's power--sheer, unadulterated power. Unmatched. She can have his body--he had no quips parting with it.

Jean could only defeat the Professor on a teke level--not mentally. That's why she tore his body apart, yet his mind was clearly intact because he just moved elsewere. So he always had an out and he survived--something that she died not even knowing. That's why I say ultimately he owned her because his grave is empty--while hers is full.

Xavier was the victor of that battle--not Jean.

Agreed.

The fact that Jean kept telling him to "stay out of her head" and had to use teke to push him back literally speaks volumes. He was STILL jacking her up mentally, and she had to resort to physical force to defend herself. We all know that telepathically he totally outranks Jean--plus he's got experience with the full range of his powers. In contrast, she was still very much a novice.

Yup.

Um...the genocide I'm talking about is at Alcetraz. Where Jean commits genocide. She does wipe out an entire group of people, the human fighters, then she moves on to the Morlocks. So that would be two cases of genocide.

That's not genocide. Magneto speaks of genocide in the proper context earlier in the film as he fears the humans will systematically eliminate mutants, because he has seen it done in the past. But no actual genocide takes place in the film. Even Magneto never actually attempts it. He just tries to kill the X-Men and the Army, not all human beings (which he did attempt to do in X2). But then, he also wants to kill Leech, who is a mutant, who is a member of the group that Magneto wants to assist with his cause. So Magneto's plans to eliminate people are pretty random. You could argue that Magneto wants to commit genocide after Alcatraz, but we never actually see it.

Genocide is best defined as: "The systematic and planned extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group."

The people that the Brotherhood and Phoenix kill at Alcatraz are not an entire national group, nor is it remotely a racial or ethnic issue. The Morlocks may have been a group, but Phoenix wasn't neccessarily targeting them, and she certainly didn't systematically target all of them. She simply didn't want to be controlled, and so she lost control and killed everyone, regardless of their affiiliation. There was nothing systematic about it. In Magneto's case, he wanted the cure and the people who created it and helped create it dead, not a bunch of random soldiers. The soldiers were simply standing in the way of his access to his true objectives. So were the X-Men.

Here is my BIGGEST problem with the Dark Phoenix saga. Like many other cases of genocide, excluding the WWII catastrophe, it was downplayed, and nearly forgotten.

That's because there is none in the film.

Like many people who do something horrific there is an excuse. "It wasn't her, it was the other personality/enity. Besides those people she killed were nameless and faceless people that don't matter." Hence the reason why people get away with it, unless someone speaks out.

Where in the film does anyone, ANYONE excuse Jean or provide an excuse for her actions? Even Wolverine can't deny what she has done.

Jean never truly paid for her crimes, she got away with it. Instead her family had to pay for it.

That depends. Is dying knowing you killed a bunch of innocent people, including your lover and mentor, "getting away with it"? And how DOES one punish someone for doing what Phoenix did? The chair?

So, where is the justice for those nameless faceless dust piles?

This assumes that justice CAN be had for some things, when that may not be the case. Isn't anyone we don't know who dies essentially a "nameless, faceless dust pile"?

I am referring to the post to which you were originally responding, which notes Storm saying, "She [Jean] made her choice, etc." Storm hasn't witnessed any genocidal deaths at this point in the movie. She has been present for one death that she is sure of--Xavier's. Storm develops her opinion of Jean long before witnessing the events at Alcatraz.

Who says she doesn't have an opinion on Jean? But Storm knows what she says...Jean DID make her choice.

The mental damage to Jean's mind was done long before the mental blocks were busted off. I would say the development of an angry dual personality due to Xavier's meddling constitutes as mental damage.

Who says that if he hadn't meddled Phoenix wouldn't have struck earlier? That's why I love this movie. There's so much gray area.

In the end, Xavier takes a preemptive strike against something he is responsible for creating.

Is he?

He caused enough harm the first time he was allowed to tamper with her mind. It's understandable why she wouldn't want him to do it again.

Ah, but if Xavier hadn't tampered with her mind...how would she have dealt with her power?

She warns him to stay out of her head. He refuses to back down and forces her hand. He gets what's coming to him.

I...see.

In the film, I think Jean's destruction is downplayed (not necessarily in a visual sense). Some of the deaths displayed are entirely too convenient and depicted as more justifiable than innocents simply being killed. For instance, I don't care that characters like Arclight die.

Where is any death in this film actually justified, or depicted as justifiable? The writers don't have anyone say a WORD About Arclight or the others dying. They certainly don't tell you what to think through other characters. They do show you a few of her actions and choices. So...you caring or not caring about Arcl ight dying or not is down to how you personally, feel about Arclight and the few of her actions that we see in relation to her end, not the writers.

Interesting.

That's the difference between Jean's atrocities in the source material and those in the movie. In the comic book, Jean's atrocities are actual unjustifiable atrocities.

She is willing to destroy an entire civilization to further her own insatiable desires.

In the comics, does she even KNOW that what she does will murder an entire civilization? Or does she just want power so badly she's blind to the repurcussions?

In THE LAST STAND, she is willing to kill her own friends and family, nay willing to kill friends and family who want to love her and help her before she will give up power. Explain to me how that is not as severe or "atrocious" an action.

In The Last Stand, outs are given . . . Wolverine labels the Professor as the problem

And you just go with that as what's actually the case instead of forming your own opinions?

Despite knowing the dangers of what would happen and how unstable Jean was and of the need to be delicate and cautious, Xavier still jumped right in and tried to do the equivalent of a mental rape on Jean.

And you know this how? How do you know he didn't just try to get her to accept his help?

And got what was coming to him. He either had to be desperate and afraid to try something like this, or evil and controlling, or just incompetent. To do exactly the thing he knew would set Jean off. That doesn't sound like the Xavier we know.

Then read a few more X-Men comics.

You talking about the scene at Jean's house, when Phoenix and Xavier duel?

Because if so... Xavier DID start off slow and soothing, trying to be supportive. It wasn't until Magneto started interfereing, and Jean started losing control, and Xavier COULDN'T be nice and patient anymore, that he started acting drastically.

Exactly.

 

[BMM]

And one of those killed is the Professor, who Storm clearly loved.

I didn’t say anything contrary to this. I was merely noting that one death doesn’t constitute mass genocide. As I noted in my post, Storm had made her decision regarding Jean long before the events at Alcatraz.

Hang on...Jean is justified in killing a man who tried to prevent her from becoming an evil entity by limiting her power via psychic barriers?

There is no evil entity. As is stated in the movie, the development of the evil entity, Phoenix, is a repercussion of Xavier’s attempt to isolate her power; not her personality.

Xavier: When she was a girl, I created a series of psychic barriers to isolate her powers from her conscious mind, and as a result, Jean developed a dual personality.

Jean is justified in defending herself against a man who refuses to leave her alone. Whether intentional or unintentional, Xavier is responsible for Jean’s current condition, and Jean has good reason not to trust him again.

Deceitful? Lies? How so? For all we know, Jean KNEW about the psychic barriers. He mentions having SESSIONS with Jean in the past. She had to be involved in those sessions, right?

Considering that Xavier was attempting to hide and isolate Jean’s powers from her conscious mind, I doubt that he graciously informed her conscious self that he would be placing psychic barriers inside of her head to prevent her from knowingly accessing the power she seemed to enjoy using at the beginning of the film.

Moreover, Xavier’s deceit is further implied during his conversation with Wolverine when Wolverine asks, “She knew all this?” To which Xavier responds, “It’s unclear how much she knew.” To which Logan counters, “Well it sounds to me that Jean had no choice at all.” To which Xavier states, “I don’t have to explain myself, least of all to you.” If Jean knew about the psychic barriers to the extent that no deceitful means were used in their implementation, then Xavier would not have responded “It is unclear how much Jean knew.” She would have known and there would be no reason to lie. Xavier wouldn’t be so quick to defend his actions and rebuke Wolverine for interrogating him in such a manner either.

Who says she doesn't have an opinion on Jean? But Storm knows what she says...Jean DID make her choice.

I never said Storm didn’t form an opinion on Jean.

Who says that if he hadn't meddled Phoenix wouldn't have struck earlier? That's why I love this movie. There's so much gray area.

Again, as is stated in the movie, the Phoenix is a result of Xavier’s tampering. If Xavier hadn’t meddled, there wouldn’t have been a dual personality to begin with.

Ah, but if Xavier hadn't tampered with her mind...how would she have dealt with her power?

Jean Grey probably would have put down whatever object she had in her grasp just like she did as a child. It’s not as though the movie depicts otherwise. She seems perfectly in control of her power until she is suddenly forced to deal with it 20+ years later, and even then, it’s not as though she is causing any harm. Phoenix is causing harm, but we know why Phoenix is upset. Then again, if Xavier hadn’t tampered with Jean’s mind, there wouldn’t have been the development of an angry repressed dual personality calling itself Phoenix in the first place.

Where is any death in this film actually justified, or depicted as justifiable? The writers don't have anyone say a WORD About Arclight or the others dying. They certainly don't tell you what to think through other characters. They do show you a few of her actions and choices. So...you caring or not caring about Arclight dying or not is down to how you personally, feel about Arclight and the few of her actions that we see in relation to her end, not the writers.

Interesting.

Yes, there is a difference in the manner in which Arclight is depicted as opposed to the manner in which the innocents Jean Grey kills in the Dark Phoenix Saga are depicted (and in my eyes, it alters the opinions of such characters and one’s reaction to their individual outcomes). Arclight is a villain. Arclight attempts to prevent Storm and Wolverine from saving Jean as well as the Professor who is about to die. Arclight is the one willing to murder Angel’s father by throwing him off the top of a building, while he pleads for his life. I don’t know about you, but I tend to portray Arclight in a different light than I do the innocent child holding his mother seconds before being incinerated by the super nova caused by Jean Grey.

In the comics, does she even KNOW that what she does will murder an entire civilization? Or does she just want power so badly she's blind to the repurcussions?

She doesn’t care, and that’s the point. Her own desires are taking her to a dark place. There is no excuse or justification. She has fallen victim to the allure of her own power, and to sustain it, she is willing to do whatever is necessary. In The Last Stand, Jean isn’t a victim of her own crimes. She’s a victim of an alternate personality run amuck fostered by Xavier’s machinations. In the Dark Phoenix Saga, Jean is at fault without defense. In The Last Stand, there are excuses.

In THE LAST STAND, she is willing to kill her own friends and family, nay willing to kill friends and family who want to love her and help her before she will give up power. Explain to me how that is not as severe or "atrocious" an action.

With the exception of Cyclops, whose death is so poorly written it doesn’t permeate the rest of the movie, Phoenix doesn’t lash out without first being instigated to do so, and therein lay the difference. She lashes out at Xavier when he refuses to leave her alone and forces her hand. She lashes out at Magneto when he visibly attempts to manipulate her. She lashes out at the soldiers at Alcatraz when they attempt to pump her body full of hundreds of needle bearing cure darts when she has done nothing to provoke them. Yes, I find this a bit different than Jean Grey in the Dark Phoenix Saga killing millions of innocent men, women, and children that have done absolutely nothing to instigate such an attack.

And you just go with that as what's actually the case instead of forming your own opinions?

No, I developed my opinion long before using this example, but that wasn’t good enough for you, and it appears that an example taken directly from the movie used to corroborate my opinion isn’t good enough either, which begs the question, why do I even bother?

 

[DarknessOfDeath]

holy smokes...what the hell, those are long freaking posts...can anyone sum up those posts?

 

[chaseter]

Congratulations to The Guard for typing the longest posts ever recorded on the Hype. LS will be contacting you shortly for your billing information so that he can mail you the prize...HOLY F*** THOSE WERE LONG...

 

[flavio_lebeau]

they're long, but reading them makes me see some good parts of X3.