Storm, Correcting Singer, and What Exactly?

[gambitfire]

!]Perhaps I interpreted things differently, but it's clear to me from the flashback that even as a child Jean was rebellious, insolent and reckless[/B]. What we saw in X3 was the same monster--only in adult formation. "Don't let it control you" seems to be the common thread her coach and mentor tried to teach her--a lesson she rejected. Apparently, Jean was never able to master control of her powers, hence his isolation of them from her concious mind. This would enable her to coexist peacefully among mankind.

In other words, Xavier's work on her may have been the only reason we ever met the Jean we loved in the first two X-films.

and this is where X3 IMO began to go wrong.

 

[Lightning Strykez!]

Couldn't it just be that this was Jean's first time intentionally demolecurlaizing someone why uplifting an entire house...?

I don't think so. After she bodyslammed Logan, she demolecularized that lab door effortlessly--she made mincemeat out of steel!

Besides, on the other side of Xavier's death she was showing Magneto all kinds of tricks in the Forest--not to mention obliterating hundreds of soldiers as easily as I can rip toilet tissue.

No, I really believe that Xavier--who can stop time itself--was too big of a job for her to take out with just telepathy. She was forced to tap into her secondary mutation to get rid of him...while he held her at bay with just one primary mutation....



...and then he gracefully exited stage left to his next "host".

 

[gambitfire]

^I thought she just moved the door out of the way?

 

[Lightning Strykez!]

^I thought she just moved the door out of the way?

That's not what I saw. I saw particles and chunks a-flyin'.

 

[bosef982]

I don't think so. After she bodyslammed Logan, she demolecularized that lab door effortlessly--she made mincemeat out of steel!

Besides, on the other side of Xavier's death she was showing Magneto all kinds of tricks in the Forest--not to mention obliterating hundreds of soldiers as easily as I can rip toilet tissue.

No, I really believe that Xavier--who can stop time itself--was too big of a job for her to take out with just telepathy. She was forced to tap into her secondary mutation to get rid of him...while he held her at bay with just one primary mutation....



...and then he gracefully exited stage left to his next "host".

Xavier can't stop time.

 

[gambitfire]

Eh, i don't remember. Can someone who has wasted 20 bucks check?



lol j/k about the wasting

 

[gambitfire]

Xavier can't stop time.

i was going to say i don't know if it was soo much a stop in time as it was maybe just movie slomo, but then again he did speak in real time.

 

[bosef982]

i was going to say i don't know if it was soo much a stop in time as it was maybe just movie slomo, but then again he did speak in real time.

He was able to stop people, thus almost like stoping time.

 

[Lightning Strykez!]

Xavier can't stop time.

I was speaking in a figurative sense. For the human mind, he certainly can "stop time" in effect. Recall in X2 how he simply disconnects brains at will. For those humans, time did stop instantly, and resumed without hiccup when he was finished with them. While literal time itself may have continued to elapse, in a sense he "froze" it for his immediate means in his immediate vicinity.

My point is that Xavier's telepathic prowess far outweighed anything the Phoenix could throw at him. He kept her in check and ultimately defeated her aim to destroy him.

 

[gambitfire]

I was speaking in a figurative sense. For the human mind, he certainly can "stop time" in effect. Recall in X2 how he simply disconnects brains at will. For those humans, time did stop instantly, and resumed without hiccup when he was finished with them. While literal time itself may have continued to elapse, in a sense he "froze" it for his immediate means in his immediate vicinity.

My point is that Xavier's telepathic prowess far outweighed anything the Phoenix could throw at him. He kept her in check and ultimately defeated her aim to destroy him.

Very true, the first part anyways.

for the second part you are just talking about the movie right?

 

[danoyse]

That's not what I saw. I saw particles and chunks a-flyin'.

I saw it too. The shot is different than the one in the trailer. That was one demolecularized door in the movie.

 

[Goddessreicho]

. . . Storm doesn't witness any murders, let alone genocidal murders (Jean isn't deliberately attempting to exterminate an entire, specific race of people). Jean has only killed two people, and Storm is only sure of one of those deaths. What Storm doesn't know is that Jean is justified in killing Xavier, seeing as how he is responsible for everything that has gone wrong. Funny enough, Storm is unknowingly left defending the man who ultimately deserves the blame for the atrocities committed. It kind of makes you wonder if Storm would even be willing to continue to follow Xavier if she knew of his deceitful machinations, lies, etc.

Um...the genocide I'm talking about is at Alcetrez. Where Jean commits genocide. She does wipe out an entire group of people, the human fighters, then she moves on to the Morlocks. So that would be two cases of genocide.

And Storm DOES see that btw, as do the rest of the X-men.

This is one of the times where it was parallel to the source material. Jean does kill an enitre galaxy, and thus the genocide. Your right, the x-men fought for her after that against the Shi'ar.

Here is my BIGGEST problem with the Dark Phoenix saga. Like many other cases of genocide, excluding the WWII catastrophe, it was downplayed, and nearly forgotten.

I would be suprised if many new converts to the Phoenix character even know about it.

Like many people who do something horrific there is an excuse. "It wasn't her, it was the other personality/enity. Besides those people she killed were nameless and faceless people that don't matter." Hence the reason why people get away with it, unless someone speaks out.

Jean never truly paid for her crimes, she got away with it. Instead her family had to pay for it.

So, where is the justice for those nameless faceless dust piles?

Btw, the damage to Jean's mind came AFTER the mental blocks were busted off. Xavier took a preemptive strike against what he thought was an impending disater, oh look at that. He was right and was killed for it.

 

[gambitfire]

Here is my BIGGEST problem with the Dark Phoenix saga. Like many other cases of genocide, excluding the WWII catastrophe, it was downplayed, and nearly forgotten.

THAT IS RIGHT among sooooo many other things.

 

[ThE_PhOeNiX]

Her skin didn't blacken nearly as much when she disected Magneto's gun, or even at Alcatraz. Her eyes changed, and the skin around them sullied. But with Xavier, that darkening spread down her neck, across her shoulder, etc., as she continued to fight him.

He was making her work.




Yes it did.

However, Xavier transferred his frickin consciousness to another body in another part of the frickin country. Can you say...astral plane? t: That's power--sheer, unadulterated power. Unmatched. She can have his body--he had no quips parting with it.

Jean could only defeat the Professor on a teke level--not mentally. That's why she tore his body apart, yet his mind was clearly intact because he just moved elsewere. So he always had an out and he survived--something that she died not even knowing. That's why I say ultimately he owned her because his grave is empty--while hers is full.

Xavier was the victor of that battle--not Jean.



The fact that Jean kept telling him to "stay out of her head" and had to use teke to push him back literally speaks volumes. He was STILL jacking her up mentally, and she had to resort to physical force to defend herself. We all know that telepathically he totally outranks Jean--plus he's got experience with the full range of his powers. In contrast, she was still very much a novice.

Recall too that after Jean left the mansion Xavier didn't even need Cerebro to locate her--he instantly knew where she was, how to get there and what she was "thinking". Notice he said she was trying to block his thoughts...but he was up in her sauce regardless.

I think Jean can take him on telepath to telepath. Shes not only stronger then him with her TK but telepathy. SHe only said stay out of my head because he had done it to her before and she was telling him not to do it again. And if the proffesor was stronger then her then he would have been able to scence her when sheleft the mansion. But he didnt she was blocking him out. Now if he used cerebro duh. Jeans dead but thats not the case.

 

[gambitfire]

Comic book, NOW N Days she is stronger. Movie, She may be stronger but she doesn't have the kind control needed to defeat Xavier IMO.

 

[BMM]

Um...the genocide I'm talking about is at Alcetrez. Where Jean commits genocide. She does wipe out an entire group of people, the human fighters, then she moves on to the Morlocks. So that would be two cases of genocide.

I am referring to the post to which you were originally responding, which notes Storm saying, "She [Jean] made her choice, etc." Storm hasn't witnessed any genocidal deaths at this point in the movie. She has been present for one death that she is sure of--Xavier's. Storm develops her opinion of Jean long before witnessing the events at Alcatraz.

Btw, the damage to Jean's mind came AFTER the mental blocks were busted off. Xavier took a preemptive strike against what he thought was an impending disater, oh look at that. He was right and was killed for it.

The mental damage to Jean's mind was done long before the mental blocks were busted off. I would say the development of an angry dual personality due to Xavier's meddling constitutes as mental damage. In the end, Xavier takes a preemptive strike against something he is responsible for creating. He caused enough harm the first time he was allowed to tamper with her mind. It's understandable why she wouldn't want him to do it again. She warns him to stay out of her head. He refuses to back down and forces her hand. He gets what's coming to him.

 

[Goddessreicho]

Comic book, NOW N Days she is stronger. Movie, She may be stronger but she doesn't have the kind control needed to defeat Xavier IMO.

Once again you prove why your cool!

This is so totally right. Appereantly she didn't. Not even when Phoenix tried her darnest did she completely defeat Xavier. His concious (<-- fix that gambitfire, thanks) was never touched. He had defended himself and defeated her telpathically, it was her tk that let her get to his body.

For further proof, of this notice that the end of the fight when Magneto came to talk to her, she was JEAN, not Phoenix. Xavier was the one who was able to get throught to her.

 

[Goddessreicho]

The mental damage to Jean's mind was done long before the mental blocks were busted off. I would say the development of an angry dual personality due to Xavier's meddling constitutes as mental damage. In the end, Xavier takes a preemptive strike against something he is responsible for creating. He caused enough harm the first time he was allowed to tamper with her mind. It's understandable why she wouldn't want him to do it again. She warns him to stay out of her head. He refuses to back down and forces her hand. He gets what's coming to him.

What did he do to tamper with her mind except to put the blocks in on assumption that her powers would eventually be to much for her to handle? In that way, he was right.

Btw, what are your thoughts on my previous posts about genocide?

 

[BMM]

What did he do to tamper with her mind except to put the blocks in on assumption that her powers would eventually be to much for her to handle? In that way, he was right.

I think his intentions are good, but I also think the means he uses to achieve those ends are very bad.

Btw, what are your thoughts on my previous posts about genocide?

Haha. This is not a question you hear everyday.

In so far as the original intention and telling of the Dark Phoenix Saga, I don't think Jean gets away with it. I think she pays for it with her life, and rightly so. After years of retcons, however, I think she is given a pass.

In so far as genocide and its depiction and repercussions, yes I think it is downplayed in the source material. I think the comic books easily forgive and forget in an attempt to continue popular characters and storylines.

In the film, I think Jean's destruction is downplayed (not necessarily in a visual sense). Some of the deaths displayed are entirely too convenient and depicted as more justifiable than innocents simply being killed. For instance, I don't care that characters like Arclight die. That's the difference between Jean's atrocities in the source material and those in the movie. In the comic book, Jean's atrocities are actual unjustifiable atrocities. She is willing to destroy an entire civilization to further her own insatiable desires. In The Last Stand, outs are given . . . Wolverine labels the Professor as the problem, soldiers instigate Jean's attack by firing on her when she has essentially done nothing but standby in the background, villains that we don't care for die, etc.

In general, yes I think genocide is downplayed. With the exception of World War II, it seems we hear little about it until it is too late . . . and even then, little credence seems to be given, as it is typically portrayed as being far removed from a given society's other immediate "problems."

 

[AznBABYBANDIT]

all xavier's fault blocking her mind...

 

[ntcrawler]

Despite knowing the dangers of what would happen and how unstable Jean was and of the need to be delicate and cautious, Xavier still jumped right in and tried to do the equivalent of a mental rape on Jean. And got what was coming to him. He either had to be desperate and afraid to try something like this, or evil and controlling, or just incompetent. To do exactly the thing he knew would set Jean off. That doesn't sound like the Xavier we know.

 

[AznBABYBANDIT]

if only magneto went... wonder what'd happen

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

Despite knowing the dangers of what would happen and how unstable Jean was and of the need to be delicate and cautious, Xavier still jumped right in and tried to do the equivalent of a mental rape on Jean. And got what was coming to him. He either had to be desperate and afraid to try something like this, or evil and controlling, or just incompetent. To do exactly the thing he knew would set Jean off. That doesn't sound like the Xavier we know.

You talking about the scene at Jean's house, when Phoenix and Xavier duel?

Because if so... Xavier DID start off slow and soothing, trying to be supportive. It wasn't until Magneto started interfereing, and Jean started losing control, and Xavier COULDN'T be nice and patient anymore, that he started acting drastically.

 

[AznBABYBANDIT]

True, it's maggymus's fault... he massed annoyance...

 

[gambitfire]

Once again you prove why your cool!

lol thanks, you too

This is so totally right. Appereantly she didn't. Not even when Phoenix tried her darnest did she completely defeat Xavier. His concious (<-- fix that gambitfire, thanks) was never touched. He had defended himself and defeated her telpathically, it was her tk that let her get to his body.

Very true something i overlooked.

For further proof, of this notice that the end of the fight when Magneto came to talk to her, she was JEAN, not Phoenix. Xavier was the one who was able to get throught to her.

In the end i felt that phoenix was downplayed to the maximum and handled very badly.