Superman Returns Superman: morals, ethics, law

[Showtime]

I have the script. Delivered to my door right when it was released. I read it several times, and I think its well done.

 

[bosef982]

I have the script. Delivered to my door right when it was released. I read it several times, and I think its well done.

So have I. It's an amazing script b/c it's subtle. It' doesn't over-try and it trusts the situations and the characters to carry the store -- not the action. It's a very well done script and the way it was brought to life shows how the foundation was firm.

 

[X Knight]

well.....whether or not what Supes did constitutes as rape.....it's still not "morally" right to erase a girl's memory of a sexual encounter and possible pregnancy.........

for example, that's like having sex with a girl......then slipping her a drug that knocks her out.......when she wakes up the next day.....she has no recollection of what happened the night before.....she doesn't remember having sex with you at all........

now......that's night right....whether it's legally wrong or if it constitutes rape........it's still not morally right to knock a girl up and then "erase" her memory of that event.......because even though she might not remember.....you still had sex with her.....and both you and her have to deal with the consequences of that encounter ( pregnancy and a baby ).......

 

[Metropolis_Man]

I have the script. Delivered to my door right when it was released. I read it several times, and I think its well done.

I've been meaning to pick that thing up. I might look around at Borders this weekend. How much did it cost?

 

[bosef982]

well.....whether or not what Supes did constitutes as rape.....it's still not "morally" right to erase a girl's memory of a sexual encounter and possible pregnancy.........

for example, that's like having sex with a girl......then slipping her a drug that knocks her out.......when she wakes up the next day.....she has no recollection of what happened the night before.....she doesn't remember having sex with you at all........

now......that's night right....whether it's legally wrong or if it constitutes rape........it's still not morally right to knock a girl up and then "erase" her memory of that event.......because even though she might not remember.....you still had sex with her.....and both you and her have to deal with the consequences of that encounter ( pregnancy and a baby ).......

Wow, and Men and Black slid by without a complaint. I don't see people running around screaming about how unethical and how much of a violation of our rights it is to have the gov't erasing our memories of extraterrestrial disasters and dangers, do I?

 

[C. Lee]

Wow, and Men and Black slid by without a complaint. I don't see people running around screaming about how unethical and how much of a violation of our rights it is to have the gov't erasing our memories of extraterrestrial disasters and dangers, do I?

It's the difference between a "broad comedy" and a serious production.

 

[bosef982]

It's the difference between a "broad comedy" and a serious production.

Or between nitpicking, unsatisfiable fans with agendas...and rational individuals who know that the sum of human existence, including all ethical and moral realms of philosophy, never took into account a extraterrestrial with god-like powers falling in love with an uber-independent reporter against the backdrop of an extraterrestrial international coup de'tat.

Forgive me that Clark Kent did not take pause before kissing away her worries...

You want to say its poor writing or poor plot device. Fine. But to make some sort of pathetic ethical argument is just....it's something that's still waiting to be defined by an event of comparable idiocy.

 

[X Knight]

ok.....but the actions have to fit the character......

I'm not a fan of Men in Black........so I can't really speak to their characters.....but I don't think we look to MIB for inspiration or role models.....

but......it doesn't fit the character of SUPERMAN........Superman is supposed to be the pinnacle of moral responsibility..........

As Jor-El says.....Supes is supposed to be our LIGHT....our inspiration.......what kind of role model is a guy who sleeps with a girl.....gets her pregnant......erases her memory of the whole incident......and then...on top of all that........leaves her for 5+ years without a world.........

that's not Superman to me.....that's not a role model or inspiration to me......nor would it be to my kids, if I had any.....

 

[bosef982]

While we're at this, let me tell you how F'ED UP it is, HOW UNETHICAL IT IS, that Clark Kent lies to everyone about really being Superman! I mean, think of all the people who have to pick up his slack at the office when he shows up late or leaves or take a long lunch -- you know how it is with those people at your jobs, who think they're so flippin' special and think they have special rules because of circumstances. I mean, he lies to Perry White and all those people and then gets really good stories b/c of his powers...

I mean, how F'ED UP is that!!! Damn Singer!

 

[X Knight]

or...how about Peter Parker taking pics of HIMSELF as Spiderman.....and getting paid for it......lol

gee...now that everyone knows Spiderman's real identity.....I wonder how people will react........

 

[bosef982]

ok.....but the actions have to fit the character......

I'm not a fan of Men in Black........so I can't really speak to their characters.....but I don't think we look to MIB for inspiration or role models.....

but......it doesn't fit the character of SUPERMAN........Superman is supposed to be the pinnacle of moral responsibility..........

As Jor-El says.....Supes is supposed to be our LIGHT....our inspiration.......what kind of role model is a guy who sleeps with a girl.....gets her pregnant......erases her memory of the whole incident......and then...on top of all that........leaves her for 5+ years without a world.........

that's not Superman to me.....that's not a role model or inspiration to me......nor would it be to my kids, if I had any.....

THat's open to determination. There is no hard fast ethical breach on premarital sex. None. None whatsoever. Objections against premarital sex are simply mere opinion, typically derived from socio-religous foundations.

Premarital sex is not, say...murder -- which is typically regarded by most rational beings as "wrong."

Secondly, role models make mistakes. It's what makes them role models. They are able to be role models by virtue of being falliable like us. If they are not, then their inspirational roles are mooted by the fact that we can never be like them. For a religous example, The Old Testamenet could be seen as a failure of God's part to properly connect with his creation. Only after Jesus walked and lived as a man, became as falliable as one, was God's true inspirational message realized.

Third, Superman had no recollection nor idea that he had gotten Lois pregnant. For all intents and purposes, he could safely assume his Kryptionian DNA would prevent such a thing. Also, Lois Lane could have legitimately been on the pill and the pill simply did not work with the added variable of extraterrestrial DNA. Perhaps they took all the precautions, but Jason still arrived.

Superman "erasing" Lois' memory is up for debate as ethical. Even still, this Superman is not neccessarily Singer's version, since Singer's actually recorded as saying that he just assumed Lois knew they'd screwed. So, to slam Singer and Singer's Superman for that action is both irrelevant and impossible -- it doesn't apply. But were it still, you'd have to explain the new found ethical barries of a situation that has never before existed on Earth. Also, the "wrongness" of this action is mitigated when one considers the above paragraph and how Superman may have had no reason to suspect he'd impregnanted her.

Lastly, him leaving. Yes, it was ****ed up for him to leave without saying Goodbye. That's about it. Yes, it was wrong. But considering the amount of pressure and the biological yaerning he was experiencing to meet his homeworld, I'd say this "flaw" is forgivable on Superman's part.

And, how is it not inspirational that after having experienced and gone through all that, Superman returns to make the right choices and even beseech his son to human parents for the sake of the child?

 

[C. Lee]

Or between nitpicking, unsatisfiable fans with agendas...and rational individuals who know that the sum of human existence, including all ethical and moral realms of philosophy, never took into account a extraterrestrial with god-like powers falling in love with an uber-independent reporter against the backdrop of an extraterrestrial international coup de'tat.

Forgive me that Clark Kent did not take pause before kissing away her worries...

You want to say its poor writing or poor plot device. Fine. But to make some sort of pathetic ethical argument is just....it's something that's still waiting to be defined by an event of comparable idiocy.

Well bose.....I consider myself reasonable....and I never liked the memory wipe kiss from the first time I saw it in the theater in the late 70's/early 80's when SII first came out. So if you think I'm a nitpicking unsatisfied fanboy with an agenda....then there is no need for us talk about it further...sorry.

Supes may be an exterrestrial with god-like powers....but he was raised by Johnathan and Martha Kent of Smallville Kansas. Since they apparently taught him all about "truth" and "justice".....I hope they spoke on the importance of humans being able to make thier own decisions (whether wrong or right) and not have to worry about someone purposefully wiping your mind of important memories because "HE" is not sure how "YOU" can handle it.

And as to your last comment....let's just say that I am glad to see how open minded you are to other's opinions and applaud you on your civility in expressing that.

 

[X Knight]

but...is it entirely clear as to what Supes will do regarding his son??? Was that the point of his speech at the end......to say good-bye to Jason.....to "give him up" so to speak....and let him be raised by Lois and Richard ( who, for all intents and purpose, is Jason's daddy )........that would be the most noble thing to do.........

and the "flaw" on Superman's part is what created the entire mess and chaos in the film in the first place.......

If Supes hadn't left Lois......they would have been able to raise the child together......and I'm assuming she would have found out he is Clark...and they would have started a family.........

If Supes hadn't left.....Jason would have known his real father....and would not have any paternity questions........

If Supes hadn't left.....Lex would still be in Jail.........he would not have been able to get out and cause the havoc he did with NK....

If supes hadn't left.....his FOS wouldn't have been ransacked and pillaged of its technology........

If supes hadn't left.......the ppl of metropolis wouldn't have been endangered by NK......

So...really....all of the mess and problems that occurred in the movie......are a direct result of superman leaving everyone for 5 years.....

So....I guess the underlying message of the story is.......s***t happens when you abandon your duties.....

 

[X Knight]

well said C. Lee......well said.......

 

[Showtime]

So have I. It's an amazing script b/c it's subtle. It' doesn't over-try and it trusts the situations and the characters to carry the store -- not the action. It's a very well done script and the way it was brought to life shows how the foundation was firm.

I agree. I believe the entire script was put on film as was written, it would have made for a better movie.

 

[The Kid]

Clark has super-control during sex.

 

[X Knight]

the better question is.......why are we even discussing this issue.......why should superman's sex life be thrown at us........frankly, I don't WANT TO KNOW what our superheros do in their private sex lives.........

 

[The Kid]

Well even superman's not above doing the deed.

that's why we have my good friend, JASON!!1

Good job, Superman.

 

[X Knight]

so..wesyeed.....do you think Jason was really sickly? Or was he just pretending.....or did Lois "condition" Jason to think he was sickly?????

I thought it was kind of like young Wolverine in Origin.....that is, he was a very sickly child growing up......but that was due to his body coping with his mutant powers..........do you think the similar thing is happening to Jason???

 

[The Kid]

No the sick thing was just bad writing. Obviously they wanted people to think this kid with a million diseases couldn't possibly be superman's but actually it just made it more obvious since it's just really not normal to have a billion diseases so one could safely assume that was setup that way to make the child seem normal while of course later we learn he can throw heavy ****. I can't name them but I've seen it a million times where the nerdiest and weakest kid ends up winning the ball game or somethign like that because people underestimated him throughout the movie. It's an old trick.

 

[X Knight]

ok....guys and gals......here another moral/ethical issue to chew on......

Much has been discussed about the amnesia kiss from Superman 2......however, it's not entirely clear if SR even includes that as part of continuity........

SR seems to suggest that, at one point, Superman and Lois slept together ( possibly on the night Lois references in her article "I spent the night with Superman" )........also, since Lois doesn't appear to know that Clark is Superman.....that would mean that Superman slept with Lois as SUPERMAN...

So......with that context......

we know that Lois had consensual sex with Superman........but did she have consensual sex with CLARK!!?????

By sleeping with Superman, Lois was also, essentially, sleeping with Clark.......however, she doesn't know that......as she doesn't know Clark and Superman are the same man......

This is complicated by the fact that Lois has NO ROMANTIC INTEREST in Clark.....that is, she has NO DESIRE to sleep with Clark......yet, she ended up sleeping with a man she has no desire for..........

If Clark went to Lois' bedroom as Clark, she wouldn't sleep with him, as she has no interest or desire........

So......in a sense, Lois DID NOT consent to sleep with Clark....she DID consent to sleep with Superman..........but NOT with Clark.....

Now...i'm not saying if this constitutes rape......but, at the very least, it was morally wrong for Clark/Superman to do that.....

After all, Clark does like Lois......and Clark probably would very much like to see Lois naked and sleep with her.......but Lois won't sleep with Clark, cause she doesn't like him that way.......she would sleep with Superman, cause she loves Supes.....

So....Clark is using his Superman persona to sleep with a woman, who would not otherwise sleep with him.......That is deceptive, creepy, and abusive of power.......Clark is taking advantage of Lois' feelings for Supes.....and using that to sleep with Lois as Superman........

but Lois doesn't know that she is actually sleeping with Clark....nor does she really consent to that.....

let the discussions and debates begin........

 

[Matt]

or...how about Peter Parker taking pics of HIMSELF as Spiderman.....and getting paid for it......lol

gee...now that everyone knows Spiderman's real identity.....I wonder how people will react........

If I'm not mistaken, Jameson has filed a law suit for the money he paid for the pictures.

 

[Steelsheen]

i think you just confused the hell out of everybody Super-Bats

 

[X Knight]

ok......well....it's simple.....

When Lois slept with Superman....she was also sleeping with Clark.

Now, Lois knew she was sleeping with Superman, and she consented with sleeping with Superman....

However, Lois DID NOT know she was sleeping with Clark ( a man she has no interest or desire in )........so, in a way, Lois DID NOT consent with sleeping with Clark.......

isn't that morally wrong and deceptive on Clark/Superman's part?

 

[C. Lee]

ok......well....it's simple.....

When Lois slept with Superman....she was also sleeping with Clark.

Now, Lois knew she was sleeping with Superman, and she consented with sleeping with Superman....

However, Lois DID NOT know she was sleeping with Clark ( a man she has no interest or desire in )........so, in a way, Lois DID NOT consent with sleeping with Clark.......

isn't that morally wrong and deceptive on Clark/Superman's part?

It really doesn't matter. We can debate what happened in Reeve's Superman I and II (because we have it on DVD or tape...it is there as it is)....but since Singer decided to say that SR is in a "vague" history with those movies (and he picked and chose what parts to incorporate into this film, and did not tell us which parts exactly he did draw from)....then we have no way of knowing what was supposedly done in the past in this movie's "timeline/universe"...so we can't make an accurate judgement.