Superman Returns Superman Returns:Final Thoughts

[LexCorp]

FINAL THOUGHTS

(+): A well directed and well made movie, has respect for the character of Superman, you can feel the passion in every scene of the film, best CGI in a comic book film yet.
(-): Based the film too much on the previous reeve films, Not enough stuff to satisfy the hardcore comic supes fans, poor villain plot, lack of pumped-up action.

A good review brief and to the point. The villain plot was a bit nonsense.

 

[Pickle-El]

And it is still you *****ing about it just like a year ago while offering nothing valid to the conversation.

Maybe that's because I made my peace with the good/bad of SR a year ago. (like most people) I get nothing out of continually hammering my opinion on other people's heads on a daily basis months later.

Can't say the same for some people in here. It's not even about SR. It's about 'Singer raped my childhood'. Replace him. Fire the cast. Staker. etc.

 

[LexCorp]

Maybe that's because I made my peace with the good/bad of SR a year ago. (like most people) I get nothing out of continually hammering my opinion on other people's heads on a daily basis months later.

Can't say the same for some people in here. It's not even about SR. It's about 'Singer raped my childhood'. Replace him. Fire the cast. Staker. etc.

Ha funny stuff. "My child hood" lol

 

[buggs0268]

Agreed. I think he has the ability. Yet, it seems that Singer realized he jacked up early on and tried for a different tack. He's not a Supeman fan at heart. He loves the lonliness and isolation and that is what he showed.

I think Routh has the ability, but a lot of times an actor is only as good as the director. I mean a lot of times what you think is an actors portrayal is the director offscreen saying "now do this. NOW THIS! Look here!" Etc. That is why you do ADR a lot of the time. And Singer made the mistake a lot of directors now are doing, which is sitting at the video assist console and not going up and directing and working with the actor just off camera. Spielberg still does it, and you can see it in his movies. Watch Spielberg directing Ford in the placing the bag of sand scene in Raiders of the Lost Ark and you will see what I mean. Some directors get in there and direct. Some directors also work with the actors before the scene and rehears and allow the actors to work out the timing and find the moments and let the actors "ACT" and not just dictate where to look and all that while they are doing the scene, which can throw the actor off. Singer may have been someone who did that in previous films from judging from the making of for X-men 2. But on the SR blogs, it looks like he spent most of his time with the microphone being away from the actors.

 

[buggs0268]

You can't be right, it's only opinion.

Hey Saph. Nice to see you get banned again. Wow I am up to 9 times spotting you. Get a life and realize that you are permanently banned from here.

http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11232592&postcount=125

 

[Showtime]

Hey Saph. Nice to see you get banned again. Wow I am up to 9 times spotting you. Get a life and realize that you are permanently banned from here.

http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11232592&postcount=125

Heh Heh. Man, he just keeps trying and trying. EXCELSIOR loves to swoop in and take him out.

Can you list the names he has been? Just curious.

 

[lexlives]

How can I find that odd, when a number of the early drafts were written before Routh was even cast? You think they had Sueprman delivering big speeches and then cut it once Routh was cast? That's quite a theory.

Where did I say Superman had big speeches?

The fact is Routh was given virtually no dialog. You are free to infer or not whatever you want from that.

 

[Freddy_Krueger]

Where did I say Superman had big speeches?

The fact is Routh was given virtually no dialog. You are free to infer or not whatever you want from that.

Routh has plenty of dialogue. There aren't any long monologues, but he does have a line in almost every scene he's in (aside from rescue scenes anyway). Superman is very much introspective in Returns and is intentionally so. But at the same time he has plenty of lines. The scene with his mother, the roof top scene, talking to Lois as Clark, ya da ya da ya da.

The way some people talk, you'd think Superman was a mute in this film.

 

[Showtime]

Where did I say Superman had big speeches?

The fact is Routh was given virtually no dialog. You are free to infer or not whatever you want from that.

Again...the script was written before Routh was cast, you think they had to change the script because Routh couldn't act? My point being, if the started writing the script beforehand, wouldn't anybody playing Superman not have enough lines? What is so hard to understand.

 

[buggs0268]

Heh Heh. Man, he just keeps trying and trying. EXCELSIOR loves to swoop in and take him out.

Can you list the names he has been? Just curious.

Well the last about 7 times I have spotted him, then copied the links to his posts and then messaged Excelsior, who looks at of his posts and also does other things to verify it is him. So pretty much the last 6 months, if he has been banned, it has been me spotting him and notifying Excelsior in private.

I would have to look back but I did have to delete a bunch of private messages due to space allowed for them. I usually tro to post a HA HA post right after he is banned when it was me who outed him to Excelsior. Although there have been two or three times that I was the one who outed him that I did not do a HA HA post after.

 

[lexlives]

Again...the script was written before Routh was cast, you think they had to change the script because Routh couldn't act? My point being, if the started writing the script beforehand, wouldn't anybody playing Superman not have enough lines? What is so hard to understand.

AS as you youeself pointed out so correctly - what we got onscreen and the initial script are two different things. The "I am still Superman" line for one.

Neither you nor I know what changes were made and for what reasons.

 

[Pickle-El]

AS as you youeself pointed out so correctly - what we got onscreen and the initial script are two different things. The "I am still Superman" line for one.

Neither you nor I know what changes were made and for what reasons.

Then why do you automatically assume that Singer cut all of Routh's dialogue due to bad portrayal?

 

[dude stannis]

lexlives? assumption? Never I say!

 

[Showtime]

AS as you youeself pointed out so correctly - what we got onscreen and the initial script are two different things. The "I am still Superman" line for one.

Neither you nor I know what changes were made and for what reasons.

So they cut all of Routh's lines out during production because they found out he couldn't act.

In turn you don't know if any changes were made, right Lex? One could assume the script always pointed to Superman having the same amount of dialogue even before Routh was cast. Right Lex? Isn't this also a possibility since it is indeed all speculation. Not fact.

 

[Showtime]

Well the last about 7 times I have spotted him, then copied the links to his posts and then messaged Excelsior, who looks at of his posts and also does other things to verify it is him. So pretty much the last 6 months, if he has been banned, it has been me spotting him and notifying Excelsior in private.

I would have to look back but I did have to delete a bunch of private messages due to space allowed for them. I usually tro to post a HA HA post right after he is banned when it was me who outed him to Excelsior. Although there have been two or three times that I was the one who outed him that I did not do a HA HA post after.

For some reason I think it is so funny that he keeps coming back and you keep pointing him out and he gets banned. t:

 

[lexlives]

So they cut all of Routh's lines out during production because they found out he couldn't act.

In turn you don't know if any changes were made, right Lex? One could assume the script always pointed to Superman having the same amount of dialogue even before Routh was cast. Right Lex? Isn't this also a possibility since it is indeed all speculation. Not fact.

A very unlikely possibilty would not you say. The film was about Clark/Kal but based on dialog you would never know it. Ebert may have been on to something. Or not. I am just using common sense and common sense does not, cannot, make sense of this IMO.

 

[charl_huntress]

I don't think Ghostrider has a chance to hit 200million, I would be shocked if it broke 150million. I hope it does well though, it's good for all comic book movies. It will mean good news for heroes like WW, Flash, Ironman, and other such heroes hitting the big screen.

GR doesn't have to hit 200 million to be a hit. IT DIDN'T COST 200 MILLION + TO MAKE.

SR did....

Anyway...it's all moot because it's for comic book fandom.

Personally, I could care less about the others. I want Supes to do well, yet he won't with BSinger...so I have to suck that up...I guess.

 

[charl_huntress]

The problem is, however, that there are no indications "he" (Routh) has the "ability" or that he can deliver an outstanding performance as Clark/Kal. Cause that is what it will take.

When Routh was cast many pointed to his OLTL run and how he was fired from that soap because of consistently poor performances. His delivery among them - and you can see that very weakness in Routh's lines with Martha (EMS) early in the film. Or his poor timing in his bar scenes with Jimmy/Sam. The two actors were not connecting and it was not Huntington who was the problem.

Remember, in the years between his OLTL firing and being cast in SR, Routh did very little work. No opportunity to grow his skills. Why would anyone have expected him to suddenly flower as an actor when cast as Clark/Kal? Singer may have been known for picking a great unknown talent in Jackman but his rep in that regards takes a blow with the casting of Routh.

If Routh "jacked" his performance early on and Singer then adjusted by giving Routh hardly any dialog in SR then what does that say about Singer's casting skills or judgement? An actor either has the skills to pull off such a complex role or not. WB had to have seen this, so I assume Singer and Routh came as a package and, if WB had insisted on a different actor, then Singer, their "white knight", would have walked.

As to any sequel, why would anyone expect to see an improvement in Routh's performance when he has done nothing acting-wise since SR came out?

I know there are Routh supporters out there and he may be a very nice guy, but he has neither the skills nor is he showing the passion to "want it" - as in being out there and pursuing work IMO. Sorry, he can't afford to be turning down roles which he reportedly is. Its why I question his passion for this craft - if you don't have that then you can forget it.

BB, the Spiderman films and the X-Men films were not training grounds for novice actors with just average skills - why Superman should be I simply dont get. But I guess I am just funny that way.

I read all of this, but I still feel as though you didn't get me. That's here nor there, but in essence what I am saying is what I DID see of Routh's CK performance. I'm not saying it was the best, but the fact of the matter is I didn't see enough of anyone of them to get clear view. So, that must mean Singer didn't trust in Routh. It could be for the reasons you say, but I'm still saying that I think Routh can do it. I think his CK performance can ensure some of the necessary qualities needed for Superman. Yet, if Singer doesn't show them it won't be seen.

What I did see of Routh's CK just needed work....but all of what I saw of Singer's abilities needed serious help. My issue is if he didn't trust in his main character and knew this early on...why short Supes like that? If he knew the character wouldn't sell why not show the character attributes?

Why didn't Singer sell Superman instead of some lonely, ****ed up character with a cape

 

[Matt]

Other people do it so why just target him? He can say what he wants as can we all. At least Pickle is a good supporter of the movie who doesnt make uesless threads.

The point I'm making is, Pickle is up on his high horse, criticizing people for complaining a year later and yet he is essentially doing the same exact thing.

 

[Matt]

I do find it curious that Superman had less lines than Neo in the original Matrix. That being said, I'm not sure if it was because of his inability to act (though I do not doubt for a second that Singer would've cast him based on resemblence to Reeve alone without even watching a screen test). A big theme of the film was Superman/Clark's isolation from everyone around him. If he were chattering his ass off he wouldn't exactly be isolated. But there in lies the problem. It sounds good on paper but when you cut the character off like that, you run the risk of isolating him from the audience as well, and that is exactly what happened (with me anyhow).

At any rate, with what we have to work with I don't think any of us can judge Routh's acting abilities. All we have to go on is Superman Returns (where he wasn't allowed to display them), an MTV dramedy, and a soap opera he was fired from. Sure, we could argue that his resume is evidence enough of his talent (or lack there of)...however, one could counter that by pointing out that the scripts have been weak in pretty much all of his work (keep in mind though, Vin Diesel fans use the same excuse). At any rate, I think we have yet to see enough evidence to send the jury into deliberation.

 

[charl_huntress]

I think Routh has the ability, but a lot of times an actor is only as good as the director. I mean a lot of times what you think is an actors portrayal is the director offscreen saying "now do this. NOW THIS! Look here!" Etc. That is why you do ADR a lot of the time. And Singer made the mistake a lot of directors now are doing, which is sitting at the video assist console and not going up and directing and working with the actor just off camera. Spielberg still does it, and you can see it in his movies. Watch Spielberg directing Ford in the placing the bag of sand scene in Raiders of the Lost Ark and you will see what I mean. Some directors get in there and direct. Some directors also work with the actors before the scene and rehears and allow the actors to work out the timing and find the moments and let the actors "ACT" and not just dictate where to look and all that while they are doing the scene, which can throw the actor off. Singer may have been someone who did that in previous films from judging from the making of for X-men 2. But on the SR blogs, it looks like he spent most of his time with the microphone being away from the actors.

Ahhhh Buggs.....t:

Ya know...seriously...I don't know what to think about this movie anymore. Singer just didn't get Superman. He got some God in a cape, and that's really bad.

Ugh....it's sad that when I left X3 I said that was horrible. Yet, when I put that movie in I love it because everything falls into place.

I could have loved a really bad Superman movie. I love Supes IV...but I can't love Jesus Supes...Gay Supes or anything else. I just didn't get into for that, so it's hard to see my Superman and the Superman for a lot of others subjugated to the nonsense that is Bryan ****ing Singer.

 

[charl_huntress]

I do find it curious that Superman had less lines than Neo in the original Matrix. That being said, I'm not sure if it was because of his inability to act (though I do not doubt for a second that Singer would've cast him based on resemblence to Reeve alone without even watching a screen test). A big theme of the film was Superman/Clark's isolation from everyone around him. If he were chattering his ass off he wouldn't exactly be isolated. But there in lies the problem. It sounds good on paper but when you cut the character off like that, you run the risk of isolating him from the audience as well, and that is exactly what happened (with me anyhow).

At any rate, with what we have to work with I don't think any of us can judge Routh's acting abilities. All we have to go on is Superman Returns (where he wasn't allowed to display them), an MTV dramedy, and a soap opera he was fired from. Sure, we could argue that his resume is evidence enough of his talent (or lack there of)...however, one could counter that by pointing out that the scripts have been weak in pretty much all of his work (keep in mind though, Vin Diesel fans use the same excuse). At any rate, I think we have yet to see enough evidence to send the jury into deliberation.

I thought he did a good job with some of the more humorous Clark lines. Yet, his Supes was so bland that it rubbed off on his Clark.

A part of me feels Singer didn't want to show the happy, go-lucky stuff about Superman/Clark, which obviously would be the case if a man was living as a god amongst them. Singer only wanted to focus on Supes vulnerablity, isolation, and whatever else jacked up, schizo things he could come up with.

 

[buggs0268]

For some reason I think it is so funny that he keeps coming back and you keep pointing him out and he gets banned. t:

Yeah. He needs a life. A hobby. I just wonder what goes through his mind. He knows he is banned but he has to create a profile and talk to us.

 

[buggs0268]

Ahhhh Buggs.....t:

Ya know...seriously...I don't know what to think about this movie anymore. Singer just didn't get Superman. He got some God in a cape, and that's really bad.

Ugh....it's sad that when I left X3 I said that was horrible. Yet, when I put that movie in I love it because everything falls into place.

I could have loved a really bad Superman movie. I love Supes IV...but I can't love Jesus Supes...Gay Supes or anything else. I just didn't get into for that, so it's hard to see my Superman and the Superman for a lot of others subjugated to the nonsense that is Bryan ****ing Singer.

Your right. Donner got it right as you could get. Sure he took some liberties but it was due to budget and what he was allowed to do with a kids film (goofy lex) but he kicked ass. It is still considered teh best Superhero film to date by many people. And Singer, even though a lot of people are mad because he followed the Donner-verse, he so didn't. The Donner verse had a commanding, self assured Superman. This has a whimpy one. The Donner movie knew you needed action, and a story, and characters that got you involved and were fun to watch and had charisma. Reeve and Kidder were alive. Routh and Bosworth was like watching paint dry. And I don't blame them. I blame a lame script and a director that got a big head and forgot what made his earlier films so good. This was dull, and you could give a crap less if a nuke went off and everyone died. And there were so many plot holes and illogic it isn't even funny. He copied some things, but strayed so far away from the films it isn't even funny. And what is so funny is, for straying so far, he takes us on the "same journey" requel crap. But so little action. Supes who barely has lines. The suit. ARRRGGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!! My head hurts just thinking about it. I am just going to bed.

 

[LexCorp]

I do find it curious that Superman had less lines than Neo in the original Matrix. That being said, I'm not sure if it was because of his inability to act (though I do not doubt for a second that Singer would've cast him based on resemblence to Reeve alone without even watching a screen test). A big theme of the film was Superman/Clark's isolation from everyone around him. If he were chattering his ass off he wouldn't exactly be isolated. But there in lies the problem. It sounds good on paper but when you cut the character off like that, you run the risk of isolating him from the audience as well, and that is exactly what happened (with me anyhow).

At any rate, with what we have to work with I don't think any of us can judge Routh's acting abilities. All we have to go on is Superman Returns (where he wasn't allowed to display them), an MTV dramedy, and a soap opera he was fired from. Sure, we could argue that his resume is evidence enough of his talent (or lack there of)...however, one could counter that by pointing out that the scripts have been weak in pretty much all of his work (keep in mind though, Vin Diesel fans use the same excuse). At any rate, I think we have yet to see enough evidence to send the jury into deliberation.

Really less lines than Neo...that sucks