The Amazing Spider-Man 2 The Amazing Spider-Man 2 General Discussion - - Part 86

[Leenie]

You know how many people on this board feel about The Mandarin in IM3? That's how I feel about how ASM2 handled The Green Goblin.

Understandable. If I had loved the first TASM movie, I probably would have had the same reaction. I view the entire TASM franchise to be a huge mess, so I was angry (but also not surprised) that they dropped the ball with Norman.

Also, it's ridiculous to have Harry become the first Green Goblin from out of nowhere (his health sure took a nosedive fast after his father told him he had a disease, by the way ... The power of suggestion, man ). The friendship between Peter and Harry very much needed to be established first (which begs the question: Why wasn't Harry in the first movie to begin with?). Harry's fall into becoming the Green Goblin lost its emotional weight in the film because I didn't believe the friendship between him and Peter, since everything was so phoned in and rushed.

 

[Nemeres]

To the emboldened...I don't think people needed to hear a complaint from Garfield to be aware of the fact that Sony didn't have a clue as to what the hell they were doing. Lack of focus in the story, choppy editing, tonal changes, missing plot, making changes during principal photography, etc. etc. I'm not so sure they are evil but they do suck. Mostly Arad and his henchman Tolmach.

For the rest, everyone is to blame. Webb was never the right man for this job because he lacked a basic understanding of the characters from the get-go--something we learned later on. But he was also hired because of his status. Webb was a 'yes' man director, easily bent over by the 'creative' input team of Arad and Tolmach.

It's different to say they were clueless about the franchise than to say studio interference took over the whole product to the detriment of Webb and co's original vision. I think that a lot of Webb's vision actually WAS up on the screen... which was part of the problem. The studio pushing for Sinister Six and sequel-friendly fodder was an issue, but not nearly as much as devoting so much attention to the superfluous parents storyline -- which took over everything: characterization, arcs, plot lines -- or the lousily developed villains. I think that stuff actually comes down to the decisions of the creatives, and there are enough interviews out there that seem to point that way. I'd say the role of studio interference is vastly overrated in this case. Maybe there was a ton of that, but it's not what sunk the ship.


Which still doesn't mean that the films are empty husks that only tried to ape successful trends. Both films have good stuff in them, and a lot of that came from Webb as well. You have to give credit where credit's due. It's so damn unfair to throw the baby out with the bath water, which is exactly what's happening with this series.

 

[DX]

Let's not forget these golden lines either:

"I break up with you."

"I'm already dying. Your blood can't make me die more."

And, of course....the crown jewel:

"YER A FRAUD, SPOYDUR-MAAAAAAN!!!!!!" *temper tantrum*

 

[Daltonio]

 

[Lantern Venom]

Sony planning more sequels after Spider-Man 3 doesn't mean Raimi left huge unresolved plot issues hanging after Spider-Man 3. There was nothing left hanging that needed a big resolution. Nothing.

If you consider marriage to be nothing, and professional success to be nothing, and finding one's way out of a nearly-impoverished living situation to be nothing, then yes, there was nothing to resolve. Who needs love and stability?

The Peter/MJ relationship was reconciled at the end of 3. Your so called loose ends are your own fabrications. MJ's self absorption was counter balanced by Peter's a-hole behavior in the symbiote.

I guess your right: two wrongs make a right. Peter kissed GINO in front of New York (before he had the symbiote) and hit on Betty after he had the symbiote. Mary Jane, duplicitous in her relationships throughout the entire trilogy, cheated on Peter with his best friend. I'm sure they both trusted one another 100% after that, no questions asked. I'm also sure that any marriage counselor would look at that tumultuous past relationship and say that one wordless hug would completely and utterly erase all past transgressions with no further problems whatsoever.

As for the Bugle stuff, Peter exposing Brock's fraud and acting cocky in work is not going to have any lasting repercussions that need addressing. Why would it?

I guess we can add getting into a physical altercation and disrespecting one's boss to the list of things that you consider to be "nothing"?

You're the only one I've ever seen in 8 years who has made such a complaint.

.

Every comic book fan wears fanboy goggles at some point, myself included. Anyone who thinks that the Raimi trilogy wasn't prematurely ended, when both the studio and director stated that they were, owns a pair of those goggles for the franchise.

When the reboot was announced, I was initially against it since there was so much left undone, in particular the marriage storyline. Eventually, I came to appreciate the TASM movies since they filled in two of the biggest Spidey historical events that Raimi ignored. They certainly weren't perfect films, but they did honor the comics in many important ways. It is only in retrospect that I can look back and say that the reboot was a good idea because it ultimately led to more Spider-man. Overall Mythos > single story continuity.

I'm going to miss that costume. Peter changing his duds is a regular part of the comics, but that one was the best of cinematic bunch. I really hope the new one is similar.

 

[Frodo]

I think there's a difference between the perfect resolution and just an adequate resolution. The Raimi trilogy had an adequate resolution to the main storylines of the trilogy. It wasn't good, it wasn't perfect. No , it didn't answer every single question of the third Spiderman film, but the third film didn't end on such a note that things like how Peter and MJ made up, or his work at the bugle needed to be resolved in future films. There weren't anymore stories worth telling just as they weren't any stories worth telling with ASM series. Both versions had run to ground , partially do to Sony interference in both cases .

Both left on pretty bad films, so its not like they left people , aside from fanboys, longing for more of either version. The only difference is that Sony could at least financially justify one more film in the Raimi series, where they knew ASM series was basically didn't have great prospects of making money which is why they talk about silly spin off films and everything under the sun except another ASM film.

I personally don't think they ended prematurely. Just because you could keep making films in both universes for the sake of telling more stories, it doesn't mean those stories are worth telling and that you do keep making more films. As far as I'm concerned the plug needed to be pulled on both versions because they both wrote themselves into a corner in their last films which would have made it painful to move forward. They way they are proceeding now with the MCU ,and a fresh vision has a much longer potential shelf life than either version could offer.

 

[The Joker]

You know how many people on this board feel about The Mandarin in IM3? That's how I feel about how ASM2 handled The Green Goblin.

Good analogy. But at least Kingsley was entertaining to watch. DeHaan was just cringe worthy.

If you consider marriage to be nothing, and professional success to be nothing, and finding one's way out of a nearly-impoverished living situation to be nothing, then yes, there was nothing to resolve. Who needs love and stability?

Your definition of needed resolution on marriage and professional success is nothing because there was nothing that needed a resolution on either of those points. They're just fabrications of your own making. If these were real issues that needed resolution they would be common complaints, but you're the only one saying them.

I guess your right: two wrongs make a right. Peter kissed GINO in front of New York (before he had the symbiote) and hit on Betty after he had the symbiote. Mary Jane, duplicitous in her relationships throughout the entire trilogy, cheated on Peter with his best friend. I'm sure they both trusted one another 100% after that, no questions asked. I'm also sure that any marriage counselor would look at that tumultuous past relationship and say that one wordless hug would completely and utterly erase all past transgressions with no further problems whatsoever.

I am right. There was nothing wrong with Peter kissing Gwen. It was a meaningless publicity kiss. No emotion in it at all. It was only done because the crowd cheered them on to do it. MJ kissing Harry for like 3 seconds, and then running off because she knew it was wrong, was counter balanced by Peter using Gwen to hurt MJ in the Jazz club. They both hurt each other. They reconciled at the end after all they'd been through. People were not leaving the theater wondering what happens next, or the even more hilarious ludicrous notion of yours about what happens after Peter put his feet on Jonah's desk in that comedy relief scene.

You are making up issues that do not exist except in your own mind. That's why I say you are a first in these criticisms. Unless you can show proof these are common complaints. I know you can't, but I'm calling you out on it anyway.

I guess we can add getting into a physical altercation and disrespecting one's boss to the list of things that you consider to be "nothing"?

Yes you can, since we saw Peter in the Bugle after the altercation with Brock, and nothing was mentioned, so clearly it was a non issue since he helped expose Brock's fraud. As for disrespecting his boss, the fact you are so hung up on a blatant comedy moment where he put his feet on Jonah's desk and were expecting this to me some big plot issue that the next movie would address shows how absurd and deluded these beliefs you have are. No offense. But you're living in cloud cuckoo land over that one.

Every comic book fan wears fanboy goggles at some point, myself included. Anyone who thinks that the Raimi trilogy wasn't prematurely ended, when both the studio and director stated that they were, owns a pair of those goggles for the franchise.

No they don't. They see the reality of the situation for what it is. You don't. That's why you're the minority on this issue. Pretty much the lone voice on this if we're being honest here. The Raimi trilogy was concluded. You may not have liked how it was concluded, but that doesn't make it a franchise left in flux with it's storylines just because it wasn't to your taste.

When the reboot was announced, I was initially against it since there was so much left undone, in particular the marriage storyline.

That's your false perception of it.

Eventually, I came to appreciate the TASM movies since they filled in two of the biggest Spidey historical events that Raimi ignored.

He didn't ignore them. He just didn't choose to do them. It's not like he had Gwen and Captain Stacy in the movies from the get go. I'd rather they be left alone than done horribly wrong and dishonor the comics like TASM 1 and 2 did.

They certainly weren't perfect films, but they did honor the comics in many important ways.

No they didn't. They are one of the few CBM franchises which messed up so many important elements, and in such a bad cringe worthy way, too.

It's a vindication to all those who disliked these movies, because the franchise has crashed under the weight of it's own awfulness.

It is only in retrospect that I can look back and say that the reboot was a good idea because it ultimately led to more Spider-man.

That's like saying it's good Joel Schumacher came along because it led to more Batman.

Overall Mythos > single story continuity.

And TASM movies didn't even get the overall mythos right. Heck they couldn't even get the basics like Spider-Man's origin right, never mind the mythos.

 

[Leenie]

The biggest sin that a comic book movie can do, in my opinion, is to throw a bunch of "comic book references" (or "distractions," as I would like to call them) to give an illusion to make it seem that the movie is good (or that the makers of the film know what they're doing). TASM is a franchise that is SO guilty of this.

-Sure, Spidey had webshooters ... But they turned out to be dumb, because all they did was showcase how much of an idiot Peter is for being such a scientific genius (couldn't even figure out 8th grade science after watching "how to" YouTube videos).

-Sure, Spidey had more quips ... But they weren't funny at all. In fact, the opening sequence of TASM2 was horrible because the movie decided it was more important to show Spidey quipping instead of showing him save people. Spidey ... There's an armored truck full of plutonium, and cars are being smashed, and bullets are flying ... Shut up, stop quipping with the one dork you saved, and get the bad guy before more people die!

-Sure, Gwen was his first girlfriend instead of MJ in these movies ... But I hated the relationship (don't get me started on that horrible dialogue). I wanted Gwen to dump his punk ass; she is too good for that whiner.

-Sure, Captain Stacy and Gwen Stacy died ... But what are the consequences? Peter chose to ignore Captain Stacy's dying wish, and Peter seems to be happier than ever by the end of TASM2. There's no development and no lessons to be learned on Peter's part. In fact, judging by how happy he is by the end of TASM2 (because he has no guilt whatsoever), it seems to me that he is, in fact, better off with Gwen being dead.

-And speaking of Gwen's death ... Sure, she died, but it was her own stupid fault. She was the one that insisted on being caught in the middle of a superhero fight. Gwen's death is supposed to be Peter's fault. Way to miss the point of a major character death, movie.

-Uncle Ben's death, while it was necessary to happen, was so poorly done that I don't know where to begin. Uncle Ben was an idiot for going after the gun, Peter was a jerk about not having enough money for chocolate milk (I can't believe I'm saying that) ... Yay, everybody is an idiot. And I feel sorry for no one.

-Felicia Hardy was referenced about 17 times. How many times did Harry end his sentences with "Felicia"? We get it, movie, you want to do Black Cat in the future. Congratulations. That still doesn't mean you understand the source material. Nice try, though (not really).

 

[The Joker]

^ Bravo Leenie. BRAVO

 

[UltimateWebhead]

Understandable. If I had loved the first TASM movie, I probably would have had the same reaction. I view the entire TASM franchise to be a huge mess, so I was angry (but also not surprised) that they dropped the ball with Norman.

Also, it's ridiculous to have Harry become the first Green Goblin from out of nowhere (his health sure took a nosedive fast after his father told him he had a disease, by the way ... The power of suggestion, man ). The friendship between Peter and Harry very much needed to be established first (which begs the question: Why wasn't Harry in the first movie to begin with?). Harry's fall into becoming the Green Goblin lost its emotional weight in the film because I didn't believe the friendship between him and Peter, since everything was so phoned in and rushed.

To the emboldened...you know what is great? Greg Weisman, co-creator of TSSM was quoted in an interview after being asked about not getting a 3rd season--he said, (paraphrasing) "I am just fortunate that we got to do a second season because otherwise we'd have a bunch of people thinking that we made Harry the GG before Norman."

That quote was made prior to the release of ASM2. But I guess some people just have a better understanding of these characters than others

It's different to say they were clueless about the franchise than to say studio interference took over the whole product to the detriment of Webb and co's original vision. I think that a lot of Webb's vision actually WAS up on the screen... which was part of the problem. The studio pushing for Sinister Six and sequel-friendly fodder was an issue, but not nearly as much as devoting so much attention to the superfluous parents storyline -- which took over everything: characterization, arcs, plot lines -- or the lousily developed villains. I think that stuff actually comes down to the decisions of the creatives, and there are enough interviews out there that seem to point that way. I'd say the role of studio interference is vastly overrated in this case. Maybe there was a ton of that, but it's not what sunk the ship.


Which still doesn't mean that the films are empty husks that only tried to ape successful trends. Both films have good stuff in them, and a lot of that came from Webb as well. You have to give credit where credit's due. It's so damn unfair to throw the baby out with the bath water, which is exactly what's happening with this series.

I think we're pretty close in what we think about the situation. First, I wanna say that I do not hate ASM2 completely. There is some really cool stuff that came out of this movie but the problem is that none of it sticks. I saw the movie twice in theaters, twice on Blu ray and I have no desire to ever watch it again. It was even on Starz during a time when it was one of those free weekends and I skipped over it to watch something else. There's a problem.

Webb is to blame. The studio is to blame. The producers are to blame. The writers. Everyone. It's all their fault.

The biggest sin that a comic book movie can do, in my opinion, is to throw a bunch of "comic book references" (or "distractions," as I would like to call them) to give an illusion to make it seem that the movie is good (or that the makers of the film know what they're doing). TASM is a franchise that is SO guilty of this.


-Sure, Gwen was his first girlfriend instead of MJ in these movies ... But I hated the relationship (don't get me started on that horrible dialogue). I wanted Gwen to dump his punk ass; she is too good for that whiner.


-Uncle Ben's death, while it was necessary to happen, was so poorly done that I don't know where to begin. Uncle Ben was an idiot for going after the gun, Peter was a jerk about not having enough money for chocolate milk (I can't believe I'm saying that) ... Yay, everybody is an idiot. And I feel sorry for no one.

-Felicia Hardy was referenced about 17 times. How many times did Harry end his sentences with "Felicia"? We get it, movie, you want to do Black Cat in the future. Congratulations. That still doesn't mean you understand the source material. Nice try, though (not really).

Great post, Leenie. I just wanted to comment on these three items.

1) The more I paid attention to the dialogue the more I disliked it. Honestly, the little ice cream scene with Peter and Gwen just prior to the Times Square scene was awful in terms of its dialogue. It reminded me of the Schmoopy stuff from that Seinfeld episode. Blecch.

2) Even more than the issues surrounding Ben's death and the origin in ASM, I am more upset at how Uncle Ben was just about completely discarded in ASM2 in favor of Peter's parents. I made a long post about how I feel his parents are important in a certain aspect but to throw out Ben and completely trash the importance of the character, the mythos and the development of Peter in favor of his parents is such a huge turn off. They even filmed a scene with Peter's father returning and having Richard utter the WGPcGR line. It almost made it into the final cut. #clueless

3) That's all ASM2 really was--a set-up for the future. There was no plot. No real care it seemed went into making ASM2 its own movie. It was a 2 1/2 hour commercial for the next film.

And for the Felicia Hardy reference in the movie--another piece of evidence there was no actual plan for anything, the production team decided to name that character Felicia during principal photography. Dumb. And it's not even one of those things anyone would catch onto unless you're a fan of the comics cause all they did was call her Felicia. No character development for her or anyone else for that matter. I guess they were gonna save her development for the next movie

 

[Daltonio]

I'm going to miss that costume. Peter changing his duds is a regular part of the comics, but that one was the best of cinematic bunch. I really hope the new one is similar.

Couldn't agree more, it's gonna be pretty tough to get a costume anywhere near as good.

-Sure, Spidey had webshooters ... But they turned out to be dumb, because all they did was showcase how much of an idiot Peter is for being such a scientific genius (couldn't even figure out 8th grade science after watching "how to" YouTube videos).

I'll give you that one. They should have at least cut out the Youtube part.

-Sure, Spidey had more quips ... But they weren't funny at all. In fact, the opening sequence of TASM2 was horrible because the movie decided it was more important to show Spidey quipping instead of showing him save people. Spidey ... There's an armored truck full of plutonium, and cars are being smashed, and bullets are flying ... Shut up, stop quipping with the one dork you saved, and get the bad guy before more people die!

Comedy is subjective, so I won't comment on that, only to say that I laughed out loud several times. They were plenty funny to me.

Seems like people are hard to please though. First he doesn't quip enough in the Raimi films and now he quips too much in the Webb films.

-Sure, Gwen was his first girlfriend instead of MJ in these movies ... But I hated the relationship (don't get me started on that horrible dialogue). I wanted Gwen to dump his punk ass; she is too good for that whiner.

Considering that most people I talk to (even people who hate the movies) say that their relationship was great and one of the best they've seen in a CBM, you're definitely in the minority on that one.

-Sure, Captain Stacy and Gwen Stacy died ... But what are the consequences? Peter chose to ignore Captain Stacy's dying wish, and Peter seems to be happier than ever by the end of TASM2. There's no development and no lessons to be learned on Peter's part. In fact, judging by how happy he is by the end of TASM2 (because he has no guilt whatsoever), it seems to me that he is, in fact, better off with Gwen being dead.

To say that he is totally over her death and happy by the end of the movie is just blatantly ignoring what we saw on-screen. Not only did he hang up the tights and quit being Spidey for five whole months, but Gwen's words were the only thing to snap him out of it and do what he needed to. Just listen to his voice when he's talking to the kid at the end when he returns. Compare it to his Spidey voice at the beginning of the movie. It's obvious that he's still not himself. To say he's 'happy' and 'better off without Gwen' is just wrong.

-And speaking of Gwen's death ... Sure, she died, but it was her own stupid fault. She was the one that insisted on being caught in the middle of a superhero fight. Gwen's death is supposed to be Peter's fault. Way to miss the point of a major character death, movie.

I get that it's not as much of Peter's fault as you wish it to be, I do. But it's still his fault. Hell, you just mentioned it in the point above this. He broke Captain Stacy's dying wish. If he hadn't, she'd still be alive. He stopped her from taking off to England right before things went bad. If he hadn't she'd still be alive. The final thing of her running in to help him out was her choice, true, but she wouldn't even have been at that point if not for Peter's decisions, so it's still his fault.

-Uncle Ben's death, while it was necessary to happen, was so poorly done that I don't know where to begin. Uncle Ben was an idiot for going after the gun, Peter was a jerk about not having enough money for chocolate milk (I can't believe I'm saying that) ... Yay, everybody is an idiot. And I feel sorry for no one.

I didn't mind his death personally, but I can see why people do, so... fair enough.

But Uncle Ben just got done giving Peter a speech about how if you have the power to do something, you have a moral obligation to do those things. AKA the "We don't want to say the line" speech. If he didn't try and stop the guy, then he'd just be a hypocrite.

Still better than the Sandman retcon.

-Felicia Hardy was referenced about 17 times. How many times did Harry end his sentences with "Felicia"? We get it, movie, you want to do Black Cat in the future. Congratulations. That still doesn't mean you understand the source material. Nice try, though (not really).

Yes, they called her Felicia. Why? Because the character's name was Felicia. I understood your other points even if I didn't agree, but this one just makes zero sense whatsoever.

That's like complaining that Aunt May calls Peter "Peter" everytime she talks to him.

 

[Daltonio]

And this is off-topic but I love the new avatar, Joker.

 

[Leenie]

Couldn't agree more, it's gonna be pretty tough to get a costume anywhere near as good.

I'll give you that one. They should have at least cut out the Youtube part.

Comedy is subjective, so I won't comment on that, only to say that I laughed out loud several times. They were plenty funny to me.

Seems like people are hard to please though. First he doesn't quip enough in the Raimi films and now he quips too much in the Webb films.

Considering that most people I talk to (even people who hate the movies) say that their relationship was great and one of the best they've seen in a CBM, you're definitely in the minority on that one.

To say that he is totally over her death and happy by the end of the movie is just blatantly ignoring what we saw on-screen. Not only did he hang up the tights and quit being Spidey for five whole months, but Gwen's words were the only thing to snap him out of it and do what he needed to. Just listen to his voice when he's talking to the kid at the end when he returns. Compare it to his Spidey voice at the beginning of the movie. It's obvious that he's still not himself. To say he's 'happy' and 'better off without Gwen' is just wrong.

I get that it's not as much of Peter's fault as you wish it to be, I do. But it's still his fault. Hell, you just mentioned it in the point above this. He broke Captain Stacy's dying wish. If he hadn't, she'd still be alive. He stopped her from taking off to England right before things went bad. If he hadn't she'd still be alive. The final thing of her running in to help him out was her choice, true, but she wouldn't even have been at that point if not for Peter's decisions, so it's still his fault.

I didn't mind his death personally, but I can see why people do, so... fair enough.

But Uncle Ben just got done giving Peter a speech about how if you have the power to do something, you have a moral obligation to do those things. AKA the "We don't want to say the line" speech. If he didn't try and stop the guy, then he'd just be a hypocrite.

Still better than the Sandman retcon.

Yes, they called her Felicia. Why? Because the character's name was Felicia. I understood your other points even if I didn't agree, but this one just makes zero sense whatsoever.

That's like complaining that Aunt May calls Peter "Peter" everytime she talks to him.

-I think I'm "in the minority" about Peter and Gwen's relationship because Emma Stone is such a well-liked actress. I thought their dialogue was very superficial and obnoxious (and I'm putting that nicely).

-Peter is totally better off with Gwen dead. He didn't seem very happy throughout most of TASM2 with the laughably awesome Dennis Leary Ghost haunting him (Dennis Leary's ghost is probably my favorite character in these movies). With Gwen's death not being Peter's fault (Gwen said it herself before she died; that it was HER decision and not his), then he has nothing to feel guilty about. He doesn't have to worry about dating Gwen again and being haunted by a ghost, so he doesn't really have to live with anything that happened in the film. At the end of the movie, he seems to be the most confident and the happiest he's ever been throughout the course of these two films. I believe Peter is far better off (not saying that should be the case ... But that's what the movie's messy storytelling told me).

-Sandman retcon >>>>>>>> TASM Uncle Ben's death. At least the Sandman retcon of Uncle Ben's murder wasn't over chocolate milk. There's a difference between "moral obligation" and being reckless. Ben did not need to try to get that gun; especially since the robber was clearly in flight mode. Ben was also being needlessly confrontational, which is so incredibly stupid (it gives the robber more of an incentive to hurt you). At least in the Sandman retcon, it didn't make Uncle Ben look like an idiot, and it was still Peter's fault (since that Carradine guy was partners with Marko, as clearly shown in that movie). I'm not saying the Sandman retcon was perfect or great (in fact, it's an issue I have with Spider-Man 3), but I thought TASM handled it much worse. I shouldn't be holding back laughter during Uncle Ben's death, but then I saw TASM happen, so ...

-Felicia Hardy has been a big name Spider-Man character for decades. There is no way in heck that the movie didn't drop her name several times "just because her name is Felicia." They were painfully obvious about referencing Black Cat ... Because lord knows that the rest of TASM2 was a giant commercial for any possible future movies (that will never happen).

 

[UltimateWebhead]

Yes, they called her Felicia. Why? Because the character's name was Felicia. I understood your other points even if I didn't agree, but this one just makes zero sense whatsoever.

That's like complaining that Aunt May calls Peter "Peter" everytime she talks to him.

The difference is that Peter was meant to be called Peter from the very beginning and was written to be the movie counterpart of the character Peter Parker from the comics.

As noted on the commentary of the Blu ray/DVD the filmmakers decided to call Harry's assistant Felicia during filming. They decided to call her that as a nod to the character of Felicia Hardy from the comics. It's not as if she was originally written with the intention of making her the character of Felicia Hardy aka the Black Cat. She never resembled the character of Felicia Hardy because she had zero development in the film. It was simply a whoopty-doo reference for comic readers.

And that's part of the main issue as to why these movies are so wishy-washy. It's evident there was never really a plan for this series from the start. The ideas to build a larger universe didn't actually begin until the principal photography was already underway for ASM2. The filmmakers just started throwing stuff at the wall to see what would stick--oh let's just throw in this Felicia Hardy reference in case we want to use her later.

 

[UltimateWebhead]

Cosmic Crow...are you Spider-Knight?

 

[Leenie]

Leenie, this wasn't over chocolae milk. it was because that guy was just being an ******* to him not making his day any better. if my day wasn't getting any better and some punkass talked to me like that i'd probably be just as rude to him or do the same thing Garfield did.

and why would you laugh at the fact that Ben mistakened the robber for peter and get shot in an allyway 0_0

she was name dropped 3-5 times.

i believe there was more to the romance in 2 than you think. if they film hadn't been messed around with Avi Arad and the studio we would see more on what was going on with their relationships. and hey, at least the chemistry was better than anything Maguire and Dunst had and i mean onscreen chemistry.

Peter didn't have enough money for the milk. End of story. If that were me, and this happened to me on a bad day, I wouldn't expect the rest of the world to feel sorry for me. Boo freakin' hoo. If anything, I'd be annoyed with myself for not checking to see if I had enough money. Peter wasn't getting cheated out of money, he was trying to cheat the store out of 2 cents. And Peter ended up stealing from the store anyway, with the help of the robber ... Our hero, ladies and gents!

What movie were you watching? At what moment did Uncle Ben mistake a running guy with long hair for Peter?

Felicia's name was dropped enough times for me to notice the try-hard nature of this movie pandering to fanboys. Like I said, TASM2 is a 2-hour long commercial for movies that will never happen.

I believe that Maguire and Dunst's chemistry and dialogue was much, much better, and I chalk that up to the better screenplays in the first two Spider-Man movies if anything. Those actors had much better material to work with.

 

[The Joker]

To the emboldened...you know what is great? Greg Weisman, co-creator of TSSM was quoted in an interview after being asked about not getting a 3rd season--he said, (paraphrasing) "I am just fortunate that we got to do a second season because otherwise we'd have a bunch of people thinking that we made Harry the GG before Norman."

That quote was made prior to the release of ASM2. But I guess some people just have a better understanding of these characters than others

Not that we needed Weisman to tell us how god awful it is to make Harry the Goblin before Norman, it's great to hear he shares the sentiment. Someone who understood the Spider-Man mythos as well as he did would know that.

It's like doing Harley Quinn before the Joker. It's called putting the cart before the horse.

 

[UltimateWebhead]

Not that we needed Weisman to tell us how god awful it is to make Harry the Goblin before Norman, it's great to hear he shares the sentiment. Someone who understood the Spider-Man mythos as well as he did would know that.

It's like doing Harley Quinn before the Joker. It's called putting the cart before the horse.

Exactly.

I love the example that I posted because there is such an obvious difference between those individuals that have a greater understanding of the mythos and these characters and those individuals that don't. Though it's quite evident when we look at the final products.

And it wasn't my intention to infer that 'we' needed Weisman to tell us anything about this matter, only showing that he is/was aware of how important that aspect is and of course, it definitely shows in his final product.

 

[Daltonio]

Cosmic Crow...are you Spider-Knight?

Guess so, gone again.

 

[Roderick]

The difference is that Peter was meant to be called Peter from the very beginning and was written to be the movie counterpart of the character Peter Parker from the comics.

As noted on the commentary of the Blu ray/DVD the filmmakers decided to call Harry's assistant Felicia during filming. They decided to call her that as a nod to the character of Felicia Hardy from the comics. It's not as if she was originally written with the intention of making her the character of Felicia Hardy aka the Black Cat. She never resembled the character of Felicia Hardy because she had zero development in the film. It was simply a whoopty-doo reference for comic readers.

And that's part of the main issue as to why these movies are so wishy-washy. It's evident there was never really a plan for this series from the start. The ideas to build a larger universe didn't actually begin until the principal photography was already underway for ASM2. The filmmakers just started throwing stuff at the wall to see what would stick--oh let's just throw in this Felicia Hardy reference in case we want to use her later.

Oh wtf, this has taken me aback a little. I originally thought that Jones' character was specifically supposed to be Felicia from the beginning.

They really were clueless with what they were doing with this franchise, such wasted talent...

 

[Doctor Octopus]

If you consider marriage to be nothing, and professional success to be nothing, and finding one's way out of a nearly-impoverished living situation to be nothing, then yes, there was nothing to resolve. Who needs love and stability?

Peter professional success not any issue lol. There was not anything to address for next movie there. We know Peter still employed after because Jonah calling out for Peter at final battle. He take the best pics that's why he never get fired from Daily Bugle.

I guess your right: two wrongs make a right. Peter kissed GINO in front of New York (before he had the symbiote) and hit on Betty after he had the symbiote. Mary Jane, duplicitous in her relationships throughout the entire trilogy, cheated on Peter with his best friend. I'm sure they both trusted one another 100% after that, no questions asked. I'm also sure that any marriage counselor would look at that tumultuous past relationship and say that one wordless hug would completely and utterly erase all past transgressions with no further problems whatsoever.

Peter and Gwen kiss because audience at Spider-Man festival wanted them to. MJ know that because she was there. When he hit on Betty he and MJ were broken up. He only hit on her because symbiote was messing with his head. MJ make mistake by kissing Harry but she stop right away and left. Peter would forgive that easy after all bad things he did when he had symbiote.

Hug at the end show that they forgive each other and still want to be together. Audience not need to see them talk about how they are sorry for what happen lol.

I guess we can add getting into a physical altercation and disrespecting one's boss to the list of things that you consider to be "nothing"?

It was a nothing. Nothing happen after he push Brock. He got staff job at Bugle after. They kept buying his photos. Why you think something was going to happen in Spider-Man 4 when nothing happen after that scene in 3 lol.

His disrespect of Jonah was funny and Raimi not meant audiences to think it was a serious thing that was going to be put into 4. That is silly lol.

Every comic book fan wears fanboy goggles at some point, myself included. Anyone who thinks that the Raimi trilogy wasn't prematurely ended, when both the studio and director stated that they were, owns a pair of those goggles for the franchise.

When the reboot was announced, I was initially against it since there was so much left undone, in particular the marriage storyline. Eventually, I came to appreciate the TASM movies since they filled in two of the biggest Spidey historical events that Raimi ignored. They certainly weren't perfect films, but they did honor the comics in many important ways. It is only in retrospect that I can look back and say that the reboot was a good idea because it ultimately led to more Spider-man. Overall Mythos > single story continuity.

Disagreed. Raimi trilogy ended with good resolution. It not feel like incomplete story. Even haters of 3 don't think that. Or fans and critics.

ASM movies ruined Spider-Man mythos a lot. Stories and characters all mess up and done bad. I am happy they are over so they can't ruin any more important things from comics.

The biggest sin that a comic book movie can do, in my opinion, is to throw a bunch of "comic book references" (or "distractions," as I would like to call them) to give an illusion to make it seem that the movie is good (or that the makers of the film know what they're doing). TASM is a franchise that is SO guilty of this.

-Sure, Spidey had webshooters ... But they turned out to be dumb, because all they did was showcase how much of an idiot Peter is for being such a scientific genius (couldn't even figure out 8th grade science after watching "how to" YouTube videos).

-Sure, Spidey had more quips ... But they weren't funny at all. In fact, the opening sequence of TASM2 was horrible because the movie decided it was more important to show Spidey quipping instead of showing him save people. Spidey ... There's an armored truck full of plutonium, and cars are being smashed, and bullets are flying ... Shut up, stop quipping with the one dork you saved, and get the bad guy before more people die!

-Sure, Gwen was his first girlfriend instead of MJ in these movies ... But I hated the relationship (don't get me started on that horrible dialogue). I wanted Gwen to dump his punk ass; she is too good for that whiner.

-Sure, Captain Stacy and Gwen Stacy died ... But what are the consequences? Peter chose to ignore Captain Stacy's dying wish, and Peter seems to be happier than ever by the end of TASM2. There's no development and no lessons to be learned on Peter's part. In fact, judging by how happy he is by the end of TASM2 (because he has no guilt whatsoever), it seems to me that he is, in fact, better off with Gwen being dead.

-And speaking of Gwen's death ... Sure, she died, but it was her own stupid fault. She was the one that insisted on being caught in the middle of a superhero fight. Gwen's death is supposed to be Peter's fault. Way to miss the point of a major character death, movie.

-Uncle Ben's death, while it was necessary to happen, was so poorly done that I don't know where to begin. Uncle Ben was an idiot for going after the gun, Peter was a jerk about not having enough money for chocolate milk (I can't believe I'm saying that) ... Yay, everybody is an idiot. And I feel sorry for no one.

-Felicia Hardy was referenced about 17 times. How many times did Harry end his sentences with "Felicia"? We get it, movie, you want to do Black Cat in the future. Congratulations. That still doesn't mean you understand the source material. Nice try, though (not really).

-I think I'm "in the minority" about Peter and Gwen's relationship because Emma Stone is such a well-liked actress. I thought their dialogue was very superficial and obnoxious (and I'm putting that nicely).

-Peter is totally better off with Gwen dead. He didn't seem very happy throughout most of TASM2 with the laughably awesome Dennis Leary Ghost haunting him (Dennis Leary's ghost is probably my favorite character in these movies). With Gwen's death not being Peter's fault (Gwen said it herself before she died; that it was HER decision and not his), then he has nothing to feel guilty about. He doesn't have to worry about dating Gwen again and being haunted by a ghost, so he doesn't really have to live with anything that happened in the film. At the end of the movie, he seems to be the most confident and the happiest he's ever been throughout the course of these two films. I believe Peter is far better off (not saying that should be the case ... But that's what the movie's messy storytelling told me).

-Sandman retcon >>>>>>>> TASM Uncle Ben's death. At least the Sandman retcon of Uncle Ben's murder wasn't over chocolate milk. There's a difference between "moral obligation" and being reckless. Ben did not need to try to get that gun; especially since the robber was clearly in flight mode. Ben was also being needlessly confrontational, which is so incredibly stupid (it gives the robber more of an incentive to hurt you). At least in the Sandman retcon, it didn't make Uncle Ben look like an idiot, and it was still Peter's fault (since that Carradine guy was partners with Marko, as clearly shown in that movie). I'm not saying the Sandman retcon was perfect or great (in fact, it's an issue I have with Spider-Man 3), but I thought TASM handled it much worse. I shouldn't be holding back laughter during Uncle Ben's death, but then I saw TASM happen, so ...

-Felicia Hardy has been a big name Spider-Man character for decades. There is no way in heck that the movie didn't drop her name several times "just because her name is Felicia." They were painfully obvious about referencing Black Cat ... Because lord knows that the rest of TASM2 was a giant commercial for any possible future movies (that will never happen).

Agreed so much. Great posts Leenie.

 

[Lantern Venom]

T

-Sure, Captain Stacy and Gwen Stacy died ... But what are the consequences? Peter chose to ignore Captain Stacy's dying wish, and Peter seems to be happier than ever by the end of TASM2. There's no development and no lessons to be learned on Peter's part. In fact, judging by how happy he is by the end of TASM2 (because he has no guilt whatsoever), it seems to me that he is, in fact, better off with Gwen being dead.

-And speaking of Gwen's death ... Sure, she died, but it was her own stupid fault. She was the one that insisted on being caught in the middle of a superhero fight. Gwen's death is supposed to be Peter's fault. Way to miss the point of a major character death, movie.

).

Peter learned the high price of being a hero meant that the dangers weren't only to himself, but those closest to him. He grappled mightily with his love for Gwen vs his respect for Captain Stacy, but ultimately he accepted the risks of being a couple because she obviously accepted them as well.

Contrast that to Mary Jane, who finally appeared to have had a cathartic moment about Peter at the end of SM2, which was such an outstanding scene, but she reverted to her myopic nature (she actually got worse) in SM3. I would think Amy Pascal, who had a hand in such an empowering women's movie like A League of Their Own, would have applauded Gwen in TASM 2, who was willing stand by the hero even at the expense of her own physical safety, verses the bratty damsel-in-distress that Mary Jane was in the Raimi trilogy. Honest Trailers hit the nail on the head when they described Mary Jane's treatment of Peter in those movies: "Meet Mary Jane Watson, the love of Peter's life, and the worst girlfriend ever."

As for Gwen's death being Peter's fault in the comics, that's a vast oversimplification. Goblin was the catalyst for setting up the entire scenario on the bridge, so he's ultimately to blame. Peter tried to save her, but whether his effort caused more harm (as with the neck snap) or he was a few seconds too late (as with the cracked skull), it comes to the same story point: sometimes the hero's best efforts still come up short and someone close to him/her dies.

 

[Lantern Venom]

You are making up issues that do not exist except in your own mind. That's why I say you are a first in these criticisms. Unless you can show proof these are common complaints. I know you can't, but I'm calling you out on it anyway.

Logic doesn't require groupthink validation.

 

[The Joker]

Logic doesn't require groupthink validation.

Yeah it does. If something is as logical as you claim, more than one person has the intelligence to see them. Unless you think everyone except you is too stupid to see logic on this. Your so called logical arguments are only being said by you. Why? Because they're not logical. They're fabrications of your own making.

 

[Keehar]

The biggest sin that a comic book movie can do, in my opinion, is to throw a bunch of "comic book references" (or "distractions," as I would like to call them) to give an illusion to make it seem that the movie is good (or that the makers of the film know what they're doing). TASM is a franchise that is SO guilty of this.

-Sure, Spidey had webshooters ... But they turned out to be dumb, because all they did was showcase how much of an idiot Peter is for being such a scientific genius (couldn't even figure out 8th grade science after watching "how to" YouTube videos).

-Sure, Spidey had more quips ... But they weren't funny at all. In fact, the opening sequence of TASM2 was horrible because the movie decided it was more important to show Spidey quipping instead of showing him save people. Spidey ... There's an armored truck full of plutonium, and cars are being smashed, and bullets are flying ... Shut up, stop quipping with the one dork you saved, and get the bad guy before more people die!

-Sure, Gwen was his first girlfriend instead of MJ in these movies ... But I hated the relationship (don't get me started on that horrible dialogue). I wanted Gwen to dump his punk ass; she is too good for that whiner.

-Sure, Captain Stacy and Gwen Stacy died ... But what are the consequences? Peter chose to ignore Captain Stacy's dying wish, and Peter seems to be happier than ever by the end of TASM2. There's no development and no lessons to be learned on Peter's part. In fact, judging by how happy he is by the end of TASM2 (because he has no guilt whatsoever), it seems to me that he is, in fact, better off with Gwen being dead.

-And speaking of Gwen's death ... Sure, she died, but it was her own stupid fault. She was the one that insisted on being caught in the middle of a superhero fight. Gwen's death is supposed to be Peter's fault. Way to miss the point of a major character death, movie.

-Uncle Ben's death, while it was necessary to happen, was so poorly done that I don't know where to begin. Uncle Ben was an idiot for going after the gun, Peter was a jerk about not having enough money for chocolate milk (I can't believe I'm saying that) ... Yay, everybody is an idiot. And I feel sorry for no one.

-Felicia Hardy was referenced about 17 times. How many times did Harry end his sentences with "Felicia"? We get it, movie, you want to do Black Cat in the future. Congratulations. That still doesn't mean you understand the source material. Nice try, though (not really).

Take a bow for this awesomeness post.

Peter learned the high price of being a hero meant that the dangers weren't only to himself, but those closest to him. He grappled mightily with his love for Gwen vs his respect for Captain Stacy, but ultimately he accepted the risks of being a couple because she obviously accepted them as well.

Contrast that to Mary Jane, who finally appeared to have had a cathartic moment about Peter at the end of SM2, which was such an outstanding scene, but she reverted to her myopic nature (she actually got worse) in SM3. I would think Amy Pascal, who had a hand in such a empowering women's movie like A League of Their Own, would have applauded Gwen in TASM 2, who was willing stand by the hero even at the expense of her own physical safety, verses the bratty damsel-in-distress that Mary Jane was in the Raimi trilogy. Honest Trailers hit the nail on the head when they described Mary Jane's treatment of Peter in those movies: "Meet Mary Jane Watson, the love of Peter's life, and the worst girlfriend ever."

As for Gwen's death being Peter's fault in the comics, that's a vast oversimplification. Goblin was the catalyst for setting up the entire scenario on the bridge, so he's ultimately to blame. Peter tried to save her, but whether his effort caused more harm (as with the neck snap) or he was a few seconds too late (as with the cracked skull), it comes to the same story point: sometimes the hero's best efforts still come up short and someone close to him/her dies.

Peter learned to be a hero he has to break the promise he made to a dying man about his daughter? Now there's the morals of a great hero right there. It's ok kids to make promises and then break them if you really want to be someone's gf.

HA you really want to use Honest Trailers. You want to start quoting what they said about TASM 2? Because their vid is longer for that than any other Spidey movie. More crap to slag off.

Gwen was a dumbass who went to the place where a super villain with electricity controlling the whole city was, even when her superhero bf tried to stop her because it was too dangerous, all because she said Peter didn't know how to work some control grid, and all she did was push a freakin button. Guess Peter was too dumb to press a button haha. Then the dumb blonde is to blame for troll doll Goblin finding out Peter is Spidey. Thanks blondie. Then she goes and gets herself killed.

Gwen was the idiot to blame for her death and troll doll boy finding out he's Spidey. Talk about taking a big smelly dump on a classic Spidey tale eh.

Logic doesn't require groupthink validation.

Yep you gotta wonder why the whole world wasn't dying to find out the consequences of sitting in Jonah's seat and stealing one of candies. I mean talk about a great marketing ploy for a sequel. Epic logic you've got there Mr. Lantern. You might want to change your candle because I think it's burned out.