The Amazing Spider-Man 2 The Amazing Spider-Man 2 General Discussion - - Part 86

[Kahran Ramsus]

Yeah it does. If something is as logical as you claim, more than one person has the intelligence to see them. Unless you think everyone except you is too stupid to see logic on this. Your so called logical arguments are only being said by you. Why? Because they're not logical. They're fabrications of your own making.

This is why science is subject to peer review.

 

[Leenie]

To the emboldened...you know what is great? Greg Weisman, co-creator of TSSM was quoted in an interview after being asked about not getting a 3rd season--he said, (paraphrasing) "I am just fortunate that we got to do a second season because otherwise we'd have a bunch of people thinking that we made Harry the GG before Norman."

That quote was made prior to the release of ASM2. But I guess some people just have a better understanding of these characters than others

That is fantastic. My heart still hurts from Spectacular Spider-Man being canceled. Everybody who worked on that show really understood and loved the characters. There's a reason why that show is one of my favorite comic book cartoon adaptations, second only to Batman: The Animated Series. It's my favorite Marvel cartoon, that's for sure.

I think we're pretty close in what we think about the situation. First, I wanna say that I do not hate ASM2 completely. There is some really cool stuff that came out of this movie but the problem is that none of it sticks. I saw the movie twice in theaters, twice on Blu ray and I have no desire to ever watch it again. It was even on Starz during a time when it was one of those free weekends and I skipped over it to watch something else. There's a problem.

There are some moments on TASM movies that I actually like. My problem is that those moments are too few and far in between. While I prefer Rosemary Harris, Sally Field exceeded my expectations as Aunt May. She was really the voice of reason in these movies, and she was in pretty much all of my favorite moments in the TASM movies. The scene in TASM1 when Peter comes home with the eggs? That was a great moment. The scene in TASM2 where Aunt May gives Peter a big dose of reality? I was smiling from ear to ear, because of how right Aunt May was.

Great post, Leenie. I just wanted to comment on these three items.

1) The more I paid attention to the dialogue the more I disliked it. Honestly, the little ice cream scene with Peter and Gwen just prior to the Times Square scene was awful in terms of its dialogue. It reminded me of the Schmoopy stuff from that Seinfeld episode. Blecch.

Thank you (and thank you to the other posters who like the post as well)!

"Schmoopy" is 100% the exact way I've described it to people. I don't mind cute stuff in a romantic storyline, but I felt that the dialogue between Peter and Gwen had pretty much no substance. It was fluff, with the occasional exposition shoehorned in. I'm not trying to hate on Andrew Garfield or Emma Stone (because I honestly really like them as actors; I've enjoyed their work outside of the TASM movies).

2) Even more than the issues surrounding Ben's death and the origin in ASM, I am more upset at how Uncle Ben was just about completely discarded in ASM2 in favor of Peter's parents. I made a long post about how I feel his parents are important in a certain aspect but to throw out Ben and completely trash the importance of the character, the mythos and the development of Peter in favor of his parents is such a huge turn off. They even filmed a scene with Peter's father returning and having Richard utter the WGPcGR line. It almost made it into the final cut. #clueless

This may be one of the #1 reasons as to why I don't care for the TASM movies. Uncle Ben feels very discarded, and that is a huge, huge problem. I was very irked in TASM2, when Peter would react to the very mention of Uncle Ben. For example, at the graduation, Aunt May expresses how she wishes Ben had been there. Peter's response to that seemed very catty to me ("He'd yell at me to get a job or something"). While I think that was an attempt at humor, it just came across as weird. For lack of better words, I didn't feel the love. I don't believe that Peter misses his Uncle in these movies ... And that's a problem.

I don't mind the parents being incorporated into the Spider-Man movies, but I don't think they should have taken center stage of Peter's motivations like they did in the TASM movies. It is very important to establish that Peter views Aunt May and Uncle Ben as his parents first (since they pretty much raised him). I think that Marvel Studios could have pulled off the parents plotline (because with S.H.I.E.L.D. in the picture, the parents plotline would have actually went somewhere interesting, and it would have connected Spidey into the cinematic universe really well).

TASM2 dodged a huge bullet by someone making the right call to leave that scene with Peter's father out. People think that TASM2 is hated now? Think of the reaction if that scene had been left in.

3) That's all ASM2 really was--a set-up for the future. There was no plot. No real care it seemed went into making ASM2 its own movie. It was a 2 1/2 hour commercial for the next film.

And for the Felicia Hardy reference in the movie--another piece of evidence there was no actual plan for anything, the production team decided to name that character Felicia during principal photography. Dumb. And it's not even one of those things anyone would catch onto unless you're a fan of the comics cause all they did was call her Felicia. No character development for her or anyone else for that matter. I guess they were gonna save her development for the next movie

Yup, and that's a big reason as to why I think these movies lack identity. It was all about the setup for future movies.

 

[SymbioticToxin]

-Uncle Ben's death, while it was necessary to happen, was so poorly done that I don't know where to begin. Uncle Ben was an idiot for going after the gun, Peter was a jerk about not having enough money for chocolate milk (I can't believe I'm saying that) ... Yay, everybody is an idiot. And I feel sorry for no one.

This is the only thing I'll debate, cause I kinda agree with the rest or don't want to debate the rest. I liked this Uncle Ben, there was actually something to get connected to as opposed to the the one in SM-1.

 

[Leenie]

This is the only thing I'll debate, cause I kinda agree with the rest or don't want to debate the rest. I liked this Uncle Ben, there was actually something to get connected to as opposed to the the one in SM-1.

I can understand that. The Uncle Ben in the Raimi movies was pretty much a perfect guy (in my opinion, though, he was just so darn likable; I missed him a lot throughout the rest of the first Spider-Man movie). I did connect to Uncle Ben's frustration in the first TASM movie, though.

When it comes to the first TASM movie, I think that Aunt May and Uncle Ben were easily the strongest characters.

 

[Erzengel]

I think TASM2 should get a DC. Thoughts?

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

I think TASM2 should get a DC. Thoughts?

I don't really see much of a market for one. It is a failed series. It isn't something a lot of people look back fondly on or can really be used to promote the next Spider-Man film. If one was coming, it really had to have been out or in the works prior to the Marvel deal.

 

[Lantern Venom]

. Epic logic you've got there Mr. Lantern. You might want to change your candle because I think it's burned out.

If both the director and the studio go on record to say that the story wasn't done, but people still refuse to believe the simple truth, my opinions certainly aren't going to change that.

"It really was the most amicable and undramatic of breakups: It was simply that we had a deadline and I couldn't get the story to work on a level that I wanted it to work. I was very unhappy with Spider-Man 3, and I wanted to make Spider-Man 4 to end on a very high note, the best Spider-Man of them all. But I couldn't get the script together in time, due to my own failings, and I said to Sony, "I don't want to make a movie that is less than great, so I think we shouldn't make this picture. Go ahead with your reboot, which you've been planning anyway." And [Sony co-chairman] Amy Pascal said, "Thank you. Thank you for not wasting the studio's money, and I appreciate your candor."

http://moviepilot.com/posts/2014/12/03/the-real-reason-sam-raimi-s-spider-man-4-didn-t-happen-2479066?lt_source=external,manual

 

[The Iron Bird]

With that quote lantern venom put do you really trust pascal now? The leaks before the deal was made said that she compared raimi to schuemacker, insulted some of the actors abd employees, etc. do you really think pascal has a say in anything? Didnt she also want Andrew back even though she fired him. It's obvious she's just saving her own skin without taking much responsibility.

 

[Vampfox]

Greg Weisman, co-creator of TSSM was quoted in an interview after being asked about not getting a 3rd season--he said, (paraphrasing) "I am just fortunate that we got to do a second season because otherwise we'd have a bunch of people thinking that we made Harry the GG before Norman."

This is such a good point. I hated that they made Harry not only be the first Green Goblin, but they also made him be a murderer, and the one who kills Gwen which completely misses the point of Harry's whole character. Harry is at heart a good person who ultimately doesn't have it in him to be a ruthless killer like his father.

Plus having Harry kill Gwen ruins any chance of seeing the Peter and Harry friendship in any future movies.

 

[The Iron Bird]

I do t agree with the romance being crap since that is one of the things that got praised in TASM series and I thought the dialogue between them in 2 was cute.

Peter joking about his uncle wanting him to get a job felt natural to me. It was just him feeling like he was having a good time.

What I'm upset is prior to the graduation scene they cut out flash which I thought was a very human moment showcasing how Webb had a grasp on the chemistry.

 

[Keehar]

If both the director and the studio go on record to say that the story wasn't done, but people still refuse to believe the simple truth, my opinions certainly aren't going to change that.

http://moviepilot.com/posts/2014/12/03/the-real-reason-sam-raimi-s-spider-man-4-didn-t-happen-2479066?lt_source=external,manual

HA! You never even read that quote properly did you. Nobody there said the story wasn't done or incomplete. Nope nope. Raimi said he wasn't happy with Spidey 3 so he wanted to make 4 to end on a high note. Make the best one of all. Not a word or a whisper there about the story not being finished.

That's the simple truth. Accept it.

 

[Leenie]

I think TASM2 should get a DC. Thoughts?

It would be a nice thing to give to the fans of these movies. I'd be really upset if a DC of TASM2 came out before a Spider-Man 3 DC, though.

I doubt a DC for either film will see the light of day.

 

[Lantern Venom]

With that quote lantern venom put do you really trust pascal now? The leaks before the deal was made said that she compared raimi to schuemacker, insulted some of the actors abd employees, etc. do you really think pascal has a say in anything? Didnt she also want Andrew back even though she fired him. It's obvious she's just saving her own skin without taking much responsibility.

She almost got herself canned and brought scandal on the studio. I didn't trust her judgment on anything, although I do believe that she and others provided proof that the Raimi franchise was building toward a climax that we never saw.

 

[Erzengel]

I don't really see much of a market for one. It is a failed series. It isn't something a lot of people look back fondly on or can really be used to promote the next Spider-Man film. If one was coming, it really had to have been out or in the works prior to the Marvel deal.

It would be a nice thing to give to the fans of these movies. I'd be really upset if a DC of TASM2 came out before a Spider-Man 3 DC, though.

I doubt a DC for either film will see the light of day.

That's the bat signal for Spider-Knight. Not meant to be taken seriously.

 

[Daltonio]

Peter learned the high price of being a hero meant that the dangers weren't only to himself, but those closest to him. He grappled mightily with his love for Gwen vs his respect for Captain Stacy, but ultimately he accepted the risks of being a couple because she obviously accepted them as well.

Contrast that to Mary Jane, who finally appeared to have had a cathartic moment about Peter at the end of SM2, which was such an outstanding scene, but she reverted to her myopic nature (she actually got worse) in SM3. I would think Amy Pascal, who had a hand in such a empowering women's movie like A League of Their Own, would have applauded Gwen in TASM 2, who was willing stand by the hero even at the expense of her own physical safety, verses the bratty damsel-in-distress that Mary Jane was in the Raimi trilogy. Honest Trailers hit the nail on the head when they described Mary Jane's treatment of Peter in those movies: "Meet Mary Jane Watson, the love of Peter's life, and the worst girlfriend ever."

As for Gwen's death being Peter's fault in the comics, that's a vast oversimplification. Goblin was the catalyst for setting up the entire scenario on the bridge, so he's ultimately to blame. Peter tried to save her, but whether his effort caused more harm (as with the neck snap) or he was a few seconds too late (as with the cracked skull), it comes to the same story point: sometimes the hero's best efforts still come up short and someone close to him/her dies.

Bravo, bravo, great post!

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

That's the bat signal for Spider-Knight. Not meant to be taken seriously.

He still comes around? I thought he would have given up ages ago.

 

[Erzengel]

Believe that was Iron Bird.

 

[Daltonio]

Yup. He just had another account deleted yesterday too, lol.

 

[spiderman2]

Yup. He just had another account deleted yesterday too, lol.

lol how many is that like 20? Where is your avatar from by the way?

 

[Daltonio]

lol how many is that like 20? Where is your avatar from by the way?

Lol, I wouldn't be surprised if it was even more than that. He'll probably have a new one tomorrow.

It's from Arrow.

 

[Leenie]

Peter learned the high price of being a hero meant that the dangers weren't only to himself, but those closest to him. He grappled mightily with his love for Gwen vs his respect for Captain Stacy, but ultimately he accepted the risks of being a couple because she obviously accepted them as well.

But with Gwen dead (and with her death not being his fault whatsoever), what does Peter need to worry about now? He doesn't seem to be haunted by Captain Stacy anymore, and he isn't in a constant state of worry anymore (since his worst fear was realized, but it was clearly established that none of it is his fault). Peter no longer has anything to feel guilty about with Gwen dead. That's why I think he is better off. Like I said, I highly doubt that was the movie's intention, but the messy storytelling led me to that conclusion. Peter should have never betrayed Captain Stacy's last wish before TASM2 in the first place (that's the messy storytelling I'm talking about). I think the story would have been more tragic, effective, and poignant if Peter and Gwen had not been together as a couple throughout most of the movie: They get together near the end of the film, with Gwen saying that it's her decision to make. Once they're finally together, she dies ... And Peter feels the weight of that (since in the end, he feels that he betrayed Captain Stacy's last wish/warning). I feel that would have at least been much better to watch than this "on again/off again" stuff that I hated.

And the messy storytelling also makes Gwen's death kind of comical to me. She "had" to be there, because only she knew the power grid ... And all she did was push a big red button. It was really sloppy of the movie to do this; the only reason that detail was included is because they needed an excuse for her to be there so she can die ... "Because her dying was in the comic books."

Contrast that to Mary Jane, who finally appeared to have had a cathartic moment about Peter at the end of SM2, which was such an outstanding scene, but she reverted to her myopic nature (she actually got worse) in SM3. I would think Amy Pascal, who had a hand in such a empowering women's movie like A League of Their Own, would have applauded Gwen in TASM 2, who was willing stand by the hero even at the expense of her own physical safety, verses the bratty damsel-in-distress that Mary Jane was in the Raimi trilogy. Honest Trailers hit the nail on the head when they described Mary Jane's treatment of Peter in those movies: "Meet Mary Jane Watson, the love of Peter's life, and the worst girlfriend ever."

This may be an unpopular opinion, but Mary Jane was pretty much the only character I felt sorry for in Spider-Man 3. There's a reason why she "reverted" back to her insecure ways: Peter was simply not listening to her and he was dismissive of her problems. MJ was finally experiencing a dream of hers (being on Broadway), and she ended up failing at it ... And Peter was oblivious to all of it because he was too wrapped up in the glitz and glamor of being Spider-Man. MJ herself said that reviews bothered her because it was like listening to her father yelling terrible things at her ... And Peter was dismissive of it. I'm sorry, but that's gotta hurt. Especially when considering how supportive she was of him at the end of Spider-Man 2, this is how she gets treated in her relationship? Sorry, but team MJ in this case (even though the Honest Trailers and CinemaSins are hilarious. "Starring: Spider-Man Pooping!" ).

Plus, even though he refused to acknowledge her problems, and even though he made every conversation about him, MJ still checked up on Peter after he found out that Flint Marko killed Uncle Ben. Doesn't seem like such a bad girlfriend to me.

I have my big problems with Spider-Man 3, but I really don't think that MJ was one of them. My only issue with her is that she got captured again, when it really wasn't necessary in the third movie.

As for Gwen's death being Peter's fault in the comics, that's a vast oversimplification. Goblin was the catalyst for setting up the entire scenario on the bridge, so he's ultimately to blame. Peter tried to save her, but whether his effort caused more harm (as with the neck snap) or he was a few seconds too late (as with the cracked skull), it comes to the same story point: sometimes the hero's best efforts still come up short and someone close to him/her dies.

I get that it's not directly Peter's fault (I don't want to see Spider-Man pull a gun on Gwen and shoot her, haha). Ultimately, it is the Goblin's fault. However, in TASM2, Gwen's speech pretty much exonerated Peter from any possible guilt. Peter even tried his best to keep Gwen away from the fight. Not even when he caught her with the web was it possibly his fault (unlike in the comics). It played out more like "Well, she was going to die anyway, at least I tried to save her." Sure, the web caught her in time to only make her head hit the ground, but if he had not tried, then Gwen would have splattered onto the ground anyway.

 

[spiderman2]

Lol, I wouldn't be surprised if it was even more than that. He'll probably have a new one tomorrow.

It's from Arrow.

lol I lost track at like 10. Oh ok I thought it might be from arrow but I wasn't sure only watched the first like 8 episodes of season 1 got bored and stoped watching it and the purple on that avatar kind of throw me off lol. I cant want for season 2 of the flash though!

 

[Johnny-Oh]

Peter learned the high price of being a hero meant that the dangers weren't only to himself, but those closest to him. He grappled mightily with his love for Gwen vs his respect for Captain Stacy, but ultimately he accepted the risks of being a couple because she obviously accepted them as well.

Contrast that to Mary Jane, who finally appeared to have had a cathartic moment about Peter at the end of SM2, which was such an outstanding scene, but she reverted to her myopic nature (she actually got worse) in SM3. I would think Amy Pascal, who had a hand in such a empowering women's movie like A League of Their Own, would have applauded Gwen in TASM 2, who was willing stand by the hero even at the expense of her own physical safety, verses the bratty damsel-in-distress that Mary Jane was in the Raimi trilogy. Honest Trailers hit the nail on the head when they described Mary Jane's treatment of Peter in those movies: "Meet Mary Jane Watson, the love of Peter's life, and the worst girlfriend ever."

As for Gwen's death being Peter's fault in the comics, that's a vast oversimplification. Goblin was the catalyst for setting up the entire scenario on the bridge, so he's ultimately to blame. Peter tried to save her, but whether his effort caused more harm (as with the neck snap) or he was a few seconds too late (as with the cracked skull), it comes to the same story point: sometimes the hero's best efforts still come up short and someone close to him/her dies.

That isn't something good though because the only reason that happens is because the script needs her to be there just for the Goblin to kill her. Gwen is not really as independent or empowering as people want to believe, she just happens to know and have things that conveniently work on Spidey's favor(working at Oscorp in TASM so she could get what they needed to stop the Lizard, knowing how to fix the power plant and how to fix the web-shooters) but ultimately none of that was earned, those things were given to her by the script to give the illusion that she wasn't a damsel in distress and in the process they turned her into a Mary Sue that was literally perfect in every sense, she wasn't really a character she was more like a plot device.

 

[Leenie]

That isn't something good though because the only reason that happens is because the script needs her to be there just for the Goblin to kill her. Gwen is not really as independent or empowering as people want to believe, she just happens to know and have things that conveniently work on Spidey's favor(working at Oscorp in TASM so she could get what they needed to stop the Lizard, knowing how to fix the power plant and how to fix the web-shooters) but ultimately none of that was earned, those things were given to her by the script to give the illusion that she wasn't a damsel in distress and in the process they turned her into a Mary Sue that was literally perfect in every sense, she wasn't really a character she was more like a plot device.

Agreed. That, and you can interpret what happens to Gwen as "See ladies? This is what happens when you try to do 'guy stuff.' You die." Or, they were saying "See? We can do a strong female character ... To a certain point, that is." I don't think that's what the movie was trying to say, but they inadvertently gave those vibes (in my opinion). It's part of the reason why I think that killing Gwen off altogether turned out to be a bad decision, given the way it was handled. The way her death was handled really hurt the narrative of the film, because Sony just had to throw more comic book references in the film (because references are what make comic book movies good, right? ).

The only character flaw that Gwen really had is that she was attracted to someone like Garfield's Peter Parker. Like I said, she is way too good for him. Plus, her insisting on being there during the final battle felt more like she was trying to prove something (possibly it was Sony trying to prove something; that they can be all "empowering" for women now?), rather than her wanting to be there for Peter even if she was risking her life.

EDIT: I'd say that Gwen hitting the Lizard with some blunt object (I forget what; I haven't seen TASM since it was in theaters) in TASM1 is a bigger gesture to risk her life for a loved one instead of what she did at the end of TASM2.

 

[Lantern Venom]

Bravo, bravo, great post!

Come my friend, let us partake in a celebratory dance in honor of Gwen Stacy.