The Anti-Prequel Discussion Thread

[Hellion]

Fair enough, but like you said you wish you gave a flying f**k what other people think. I'm not trying to offend you, but this is honestly how I feel.



There are tons of things that are totally illogical in the Prequels especially in Episode I:

1. Chancellor Valorum's solution of sending the Jedi to settle the conflict. So he sends the Jedi to the blockade right, then the Federation attempts to murder them, invades the planet, and chases them half way across the galaxy. Then when they finally escape to Courescant, Valorum declares they need a comity to decide the validity of their accusations. If he needs to send a comity to prove the testimony of the two Jedi he just sent there, then why the hell did he even send them in the first place?

2. Palpatine ordering the Trade Federation to "Kill them immediately".
So the Jedi get to the ship and the Nemoidians contact Sidious, after hearing the Jedi have arrived Sidious should have told the Trade Federation to inform the Jedi they are preparing to invade the planet. Then the Jedi could go back to the Chancellor (just like they did later), the Trade Federation would declare they're lying (just like they did later), and Palpatine could get a vote of no confidence on the Chancellor. Instead he orders them to kill the Jedi immediately, which is one the thing that could hinder his plans.

3. The fact Palpatine was pushing so hard for that stupid Treaty, that would totally undermine his scheme. So Palpatine orders the Trade Federation to march on the City and get a the Queen to sign a treaty making the invasion legal, even scowling "I want that treaty signed!" before sending Darth Maul out after her. So with no effort the Federation get to the city and captures the Queen. Well what if Palpatine was wrong and THE FOURTEEN YEAR OLD QUEEN gave in and signed the treaty. Well then the invasion would be legal and there goes Palpatines vote of no confidence.

4. The Council and their stance on Darth Maul. After Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon get back they inform the council of their attacker and that they believe he is a Sith Lord. Mace Windu tells him the council will put forth all their efforts in the matter. Then a few scenes later Mace tells Kenobi and Gin they are to return to Naboo to discover the identity of their attacker. Okay number one how do they know he's there, number two why did they suddenly lose intrest in the possible Sith Lord they were going to put "all of their effort in finding", and number three why did they send them alone? Like 9 of them showed up at the end for the celebration, why not send em there with em so maybe they can get Maul alive?

5. Qui-Gons bet and plan to get the shield generator was totally unnecessary. First Qui-Gon tries to mindtrick Watto into taking republic credits that are a good as monopoly money to him, indirectly stealing them. He then uses the force to fix a bet to the out come of his choosing, cheating him once again. So why doesn't he just steal the part? He already is screwing the guy out of his slaves and tried to steal it with the force once. Just sneak in while it's closed and steal the part.

Or maybe he could have hired someone to fly him, Kenobi, the Queen and co to Courescant and paid with credits (Like Obi-Wan does several years later). You know maybe a young pilot, who's rumored to be the best space pilot in the galaxy, who amazes Obi-Wan with his strong connection to the force, even hits it off a little with the Queen before deciding to become a Jedi? Would have been a much better way to introduce Anakin Skywalker than to make him a little kid, allowing no development between him and Amadalla as well as requiring an immediate recast.

6. The assignation attempts. First of all why does Jango need to hire another bounty hunter do his dirty work? Second of all why does he give her poison bugs? How about a bomb, Padme spends a whole lot of time next to huge open windows even sleeping besides them. The Jedi allow several droids to approach the windows carelessly several times. The bounty hunter, the bounty hunter Jango hired even uses a droid to successfully get the bugs in THROUGH THE WINDOW. So why not just strap a bomb on the droid and try and blow her up again? She also is able it shoot Obi-Wan down extremely accurately. Why not just get on a vantage point and shoot her while she's asleep.

Also given that the assassin tried to kill her from a vantage point the last time, why did Anakin set up the stupidest trap ever? Artoo has all these sensors shooting around the floor, and the only entrance in is the hall where the Jedi are waiting. What are the odds the guy is going to be stupid enough to run in on foot when they weren't the last time? Then after the assassin attacks, Obi-Wan (the older, rational one) jumps out the window to grab the droid and ride it through the sky to god knows where while Anakin (the young, reckless one) goes after him on a speeder. Especially given it has been established Anakin wants to get the attacker to impress Padme this is a huge reversal of roles.

Not only that why does Zam decide to try to kill Obi-Wan in the crowded bar, when she could have easily escaped. Even if she did kill him what was her plan from there, Anakin is still in the same room looking for her. She should have just left and tried again!

7.Padme suspects Count Dooku is behind the attempts on her life. Padme's main focus is stopping the military creation act and seeking a peaceful solution to the Separatist Crisis. As far as she knows Count Dooku is a former Jedi, the group of people that guard the galaxy and saved her and her planet 10 years before, and is simply trying to peacefully secede from the Republic. Now the military creation act is a bill to create a military in the event the Separatist Crisis reaches a worst case senario, a bill which she has avidly fought. Now if she is keeping the Republic from being able to obtain a means to defend itself, and she now thinks Dooku means war, then why would he wish to kill her allowing the bill to pass, before he could attack the defenseless Republic and declare the Confederacy a legitimate free state?

I could really go on for hours, Sith is a big improvement by minimizing Lucas's stupid elaborate schemes he's been writing in since Luke in Jedi, but there are still quite a few stupid things in there too.



I never said you couldn't have your opinion, but I can have mine too. Given everything I have said above, the horrible acting, the unrealistic cluttered CGI environments, Jar Jar, surplus of underdeveloped characters, and the overall mixed reviews from critics, I'd say I am more than entitled to keep my opinion as well. Plus too when was the last time you saw a reference to the prequels in popular media besides Jar Jar who has become the poster child for annoying supporting characters?



I am speaking to you the way you are speaking to me. I'm being insulting or trying to make you out to be inferior in anyway. If you don't wish to continue thats fine, but don't go around twisting my words.

I like the entire saga...PT&OT...but agree with everything you just said. One of My main beefs with the PT is characters (mostly jedi) are stupid for the sake of being stupid/for the sake of the plot.

 

[Gianakin_]

Begs the question, why post on this thread then? (Unbelievable)

'Cause at the time I felt like debating and the anti/pro thread division isn't a very good idea, imo. Simple, really.

 

[Thundercrack85]

What I never get is why in Episode I it never occurred to them to leave Tatooine with another ship. They go there because their enemies are on the look out for them. Time is a serious factor.

And instead of ditching the conspicuous shiny ship they came with, they wait around for days (probably resulting in a lot of deaths on Naboo), bet on a kid, in hopes that he turns out to be Force Jesus so that they can pay someone for a specific ship part.

Instead they could have just used that money to pay someone to sneak them out.

 

[psylockolussus]

Since I'm not a Star Wars, I'm not worried if they make a new movie every year. But I definitely think the general public might get tired of seeing a new SW movie every year especially if the new SW films aren't really that good.

 

[Gianakin_]

If they don't get tired of superhero flicks, I don't see them getting tired of SW.

 

[BenKenobi]

I like the entire saga...PT&OT...but agree with everything you just said. One of My main beefs with the PT is characters (mostly jedi) are stupid for the sake of being stupid/for the sake of the plot.

The whole plot felt like it was more of a contrivance to get to the dawn of the Empire than a natural change and there was WAY too much focus on Anakin becoming Vader.

'Cause at the time I felt like debating and the anti/pro thread division isn't a very good idea, imo. Simple, really.

Then why does it upset you when people on this thread don't like these movies and have legitimate reasons why they don't?

What I never get is why in Episode I it never occurred to them to leave Tatooine with another ship. They go there because their enemies are on the look out for them. Time is a serious factor.

And instead of ditching the conspicuous shiny ship they came with, they wait around for days (probably resulting in a lot of deaths on Naboo), bet on a kid, in hopes that he turns out to be Force Jesus so that they can pay someone for a specific ship part.

Instead they could have just used that money to pay someone to sneak them out.

There was nothing and I mean NOTHING at stake on Tattoine. Anakin and his mother were happy slaves, hell we even see Anakin playing with his friends and have a nice family dinner at home! If they wanted us to care they should have been getting whipped, scared, tired but instead it's not that horrible if they remained slaves, they look like they're doing alright.

The enemy wasn't present or close during the time spent on the planet. We don't see anything bad happen on Naboo and yes Maul arrives but then he just sends some droids that find them at the most convenient moment possible. If Lucas wanted to build suspense, he should have had shots of Maul accurately following their trail, and finding them a little too early. I'm not trying to rewrite the movie, it's just basic story telling, suspense is built by things going wrong and hoping/wondering how the heroes are going to get out of the mess unscathed. Ideally Maul would have found them during the pod-race instead of on the trip back to the ship, because they heroes are very close to achieving their goal on the world and suddenly have a huge unexpected obstacle in their way.

And yes it was nonsensical they didn't just get another ship or try another shop or just steal it. Qui-Gon tried to give him worthless money and ended up conning him out of the part and a slave anyway.

 

[Solouk]

For me, there was a good story to be told in the prequels. An emotive, tension filled, dramatic story. It could've been epic. But sadly, after the success of the OT, GL holed himself up in Skywalker ranch and drifted into madness. After years of recluse he came to firmly believe that he could do it all himself. Write, direct, everything. He was untouchable. He would surround himself with arse lickers who were afraid of his shadow, and people who had no creative opinion about anything, ever. And if they did they were too gutless to voice that opinion with the fear GL would send them packing to dare question his vision. He would prove to the world that he, and he alone could do it all.... As I see it, Lucas is a visionary. He has great ideas. But he is NOT a great director,scriptwriter etc. People have to realise their limitations and not become deluded into thinking they're something that they aren't. It's called being humble. Unfortunately GL was blinded to these facts and we (fans who are smart and don't just sit there drooling at CGI and know what a coherent story is) had to endure the mind numbingly insipid mess that the prequels were.

 

[Gianakin_]

So those of us who enjoyed the prequels aren't smart and just sit there drooling at CGI and don't know what a coherent story is?

 

[Solouk]

So those of us who enjoyed the prequels aren't smart and just sit there drooling at CGI and don't know what a coherent story is?

In the main yeah. Depends what you want from a film? Do you want an intelligent, well thought out story with a good script and interesting characters? (The Mission, Memento, Heat, Gladiator, etc) or do you want a bland cartoon that lasts 700 mins with nothing characters. That totally destroys the legacy of the 3 films that preceded it. If you like that sort of film then that's fine, fill your boots. Remember, without the success of the OT, there would be no PT. Lucas should've made the prequels as a thanks to the fans that made him a very rich man. Fans that weren't kids anymore. Who grew up with the OT and wanted a more intelligent set of films. But there you go, what's done is done.

 

[Solouk]

Thoughts Gianakin?....nah, didnt think so. The prequels were utter crap so wake up bud.

 

[Gianakin_]

Thank you for making it easy.

 

[danoyse]

Thoughts Gianakin?....nah, didnt think so. The prequels were utter crap so wake up bud.

Tone down the attitude. This thread is criticizing the prequels, not other posters.

 

[Spider-Gnome]

But sadly, after the success of the OT, GL holed himself up in Skywalker ranch and drifted into madness. After years of recluse he came to firmly believe that he could do it all himself. Write, direct, everything. He was untouchable. He would surround himself with arse lickers who were afraid of his shadow, and people who had no creative opinion about anything, ever. And if they did they were too gutless to voice that opinion with the fear GL would send them packing to dare question his vision. He would prove to the world that he, and he alone could do it all....

I hate these characterizations of Lucas.

Lucas has said and still says to this day he does not like writing and knows it is not his strong suit. When he set out to write the prequels, he approached Lawrence Kasdan to be involved. Kasdan politely said that Star Wars were George's stories and that he should write them. Likewise when thinking about directing, his friends such as Spielberg encouraged him to get back in the director's chair. Lucas decided to direct Episode I to see how it went. If he still didn't care for directing, he would get others to direct the other two (like he did for the OT). Turns out he enjoyed the experience so he decided to direct the other two.

Remember, without the success of the OT, there would be no PT. Lucas should've made the prequels as a thanks to the fans that made him a very rich man.

NO, Lucas should have made the prequels to complete the story he wanted to tell.

Remember, Lucas made movies that he wanted to see. That's why he made the Star Wars and Indiana Jones films. It just so happens his tastes matched a generation's taste. So, maybe the prequels didn't match as many tastes as his films of the 70's & 80's. You don't like them? Don't watch them, or buy items related to them to make him a "very rich man."

 

[jonathancrane]

For all of the individuals who did not like the prequel trilogy, I highly recommend watching Plinkett's hour long reviews of each film. He illustrates where all of it went wrong through film criticism and history as well: the behind-the-scenes footage illustrates the lack of revision the screenplays went through. In addition, he applies some suggestions that would have made the films 10x better. Plus, he's hilarious.

 

[Solouk]

For all of the individuals who did not like the prequel trilogy, I highly recommend watching Plinkett's hour long reviews of each film. He illustrates where all of it went wrong through film criticism and history as well: the behind-the-scenes footage illustrates the lack of revision the screenplays went through. In addition, he applies some suggestions that would have made the films 10x better. Plus, he's hilarious.

Yeah I've seen all of them and they are spot on AND very funny. What gets me with Lucas is that after that initial view they had of the final edit of TPM, didnt he think hold on a minute, maybe I've bitten of more than I can chew here. It was clear to see it was terrible. Just as a film,above all else, it was terrible. He's not an idiot, he's an intelligent man. He should've said,"right, there's nothing we can do now because the film is done. But I'm going to go all out to get people in to help me with the next 2." It was a pivotal moment because the trilogy was still salvageable at that point.

 

[doobie]

I really enjoyed the first 2 prequels but III was the one that disappointed me. One, the final duel between Obi Wan and Anakin. I had spent years imagining it as some slow paced, quiet, dignified lonely battle on an empty lava planet, like the fight between Bruce Lee and Chuck Norris or a shoot out in a Clint Eastwood western. I didn't think it would be all chaotic. And second, Anakin's fall. I don't want to get into the plot logic, but I wanted to feel it like I felt Michael and Vito's falls to evil in the Godfather films. Every step of the way I felt sympathy that they had no choice and that fate pushed them into their path, but could still see them going to evil. I wanted it to feel as gripping as that.

 

[Slushy]

The Phantom Menace - Its actually a good movie if you delete Jar Jar Binks. Seriously, he's the worst thing about it and makes you want to fast forward any scenes he is in. If it wasn't for him, TPM wouldn't have gotten so much flack for its theatrical release. The pod race and the dual lightsaber were so exciting to watch.

Attack Of The Clonetroopers - The movie was boring until The Clonetroopers came to the rescue. Ironically, its features my favorite scene with Hayden when he massacres Sand People.

Revenge Of The Sith - A huge improvement over Episode II, but I felt like something was missing. Grevious and Order 66 were awesome though.


Overall, the prequels just showed awful of a director George Lucas is.

 

[Llama_Shepherd]

Yeah, I saw Menace the whole way through for the first time in a long time the other day and I realised that if you just cut out about 5-10 mins of footage that is too overtly slapstick it's actually a good film. It's really Clones that lets down the trilogy, in that Lucas, to his own admission, couldn't write a love story.

 

[TheHighlander]

Anakin should have let the kids go... those kids which he was ordered to hunt by palpatine in the years between a ROTS and ANH. That would give him the "light side" and the "dark side".

 

[Llama_Shepherd]

That's not a very Vader thing to do though. This is Vader when he isn't just resigned to the Sith, but he's trying to dive in head first at the deep end. He needed to commit a truly heinous act in order to show the depths he is plummeting to.

 

[James]

Episode III wasn't the first time Anakin killed children either, he wiped out that entire village of Sand People. By the time he got to the Jedi Younglings it was sort of a "Well I've already done this once." type thing. Plus, as Llama_Shepherd said, he was too far gone to turn back by that point.

 

[BenKenobi]

Yeah, I saw Menace the whole way through for the first time in a long time the other day and I realised that if you just cut out about 5-10 mins of footage that is too overtly slapstick it's actually a good film. It's really Clones that lets down the trilogy, in that Lucas, to his own admission, couldn't write a love story.

Phantom Menace was the only one Lucas was actually trying on. By the book he did a lot of things right, however having watched a lot of the edit's that try to cut down on the slap stick, you realize the momentum just drops dead once they reach Tattooine. Maul is chasing them yes, but he's shown to be VERY far behind them, and we don't see anything bad happening on Naboo so the tension just dies and the film becomes boring.

However I do agree with you that Attack of the Clones was by far the worst film in the trilogy as well as one of the worst films of the decade imo.

 

[Brother Jack]

Episode I is, to me, probably the best of the prequels. It's an insane thing to say since it's not a good movie at all. But it feels the most like a Star Wars movie with it's use of real sets and creatures, not to mention the fact that it was shot on film. The score is also the strongest here, though it's exceptional in each of them and is the only consistently good thing in the trilogy.

 

[titansupes]

Episode I is, to me, probably the best of the prequels. It's an insane thing to say since it's not a good movie at all. But it feels the most like a Star Wars movie with it's use of real sets and creatures, not to mention the fact that it was shot on film. The score is also the strongest here, though it's exceptional in each of them and is the only consistently good thing in the trilogy.

I can see it being the best for the things you've listed, but III still trumps it for me because of story/character being so much stronger.

And II, well... *shudder*.

 

[DarKush]

In response to some of Ben Kenobi's post:

-You made a great point about bringing Anakin in as a pilot hired to fly Qui Gonn, etc. to Coruscant. I would've liked that more. I preferred an older Anakin in TPM anyway. Though I probably would've switched Tatoonine for Corellia instead. In part because I would've liked to have seen more Star Wars worlds. And I would've switched Alderaan for Naboo. It would've been nice to see more of that world. It perhaps could've added more resonance to Episode IV and been some dreadful foreshadowing of what was to come.

-I don't quite agree with you about Palpatine not wanting the treaty signed. You make some good points though about how it might not have made sense for him to want the treaty to be signed. However if Padme had folded and signed it, I still think he could've engineered a no confidence vote in Valorum using the chancellor's inability to prevent the Trade Federation from forcing Naboo to sign the treaty.

-I too didn't think it made much sense for Dooku to be trying to kill Padme, since she was a strong opponent of the Military Creation Act. What would've made more sense there is for Padme to support the Act. If there had been a Republic military it is doubtful that the Federation would've been able to blockade her planet, so it made no sense for her to be against the act. I think Lucas didn't think that would jibe with her idealism. However I think it would've been great to see Padme unknowingly more complicit in the rise of the Empire too.

-I also thought it would've been sweet if the seeds of the Rebellion were actually the defeated Separatists.

-I also would've not made Dooku a Sith Lord. He was a good Sith Lord. But I liked the idea he floated in AOTC when he was trying to deceive Obi Wan. I think it would've been better if Dooku was actually rebelling against the Republic in a misguided attempt to save it. He would perhaps be a dupe of Palpatine still but for more noble reasons. Or maybe he would just be that one man who could really see what was going on but ultimately powerless to prevent it. And his turning away from the Republic might be better foreshadowing for Anakin's fall.