The Anti-Prequel Discussion Thread

[michael1975]

The story makes no sense, can you explain to me what palpatines plan was in the phantom menace or what qui-gons bet was with watto

?

His plan was simple. He created the blockade to create debate in the Senate. He had enough control of the Senate that he could keep it from doing anything about it. Then when the time was right (most likely during the election for Chancellor he would have Trade Federation invade Naboo.) he would have her killed. Then as he was running for Chancellor he could use it and say "See here see this I won't let these things continue. I will put a stop to this". Then those Senators who he didn't control would more then likely be swayed. The problem is the Jedi screwed everything up and got in the way of his plans.

He told the Trade Federation to kill the Jedi, even though he really needed the Jedi to go back and declare that there was a war going on. He should have had the Federation tell them "there will be no negotiations we plan to invade the planet".

That's just it he didn't want the Jedi involved at all. Involving the Jedi might put his plan in jeopardy. Also by killing the Jedi it would help his cause to be elected Chancellor.

He sent Darth Maul to like kill them on Tatooine...why? He needs Amadala to get back to Courescant to declare that vote of no confidence at this point so why is he sending Darth Maul after them?

Actually he never ordered Darth Maul to kill Amadala. He order him to kill every one but her. He was supposed to kill them and bring her back to Naboo. He would then force her to sign the treaty and then have trade federation kill her. Then it would allow Palpatine to use that as a prime example of the senate in ability to take action. That as chancellor he will fight to ensure that these forms of injustice never happen again.

When Amadala finally got to Coruscant he was able to convence her to call a vote of no confidence in the Chancellor. He basically sped up his time tables. Her going back to Naboo just furthered his cause. At that point it didn't matter he was pretty much going to win no matter the out come. However the reason he tells Trade Federation to wipe them all out was to remove any chance that the votes wouldn't go his way.

Why didn't the Jedi go back for his mother before 10 years passed by?

Because the code forbid it. They where not going to give Anakin special treatment simply because he was older. The council in fact probably thought the code was even more important in Anakin case. He need to get over his attachment to his mother.

Why aren't the Jedi allowed to marry when love is not a bad emotion by any means?

Again the code forbids it. They could only see the negative outcome to marriage. The negatives far out way the positives. That and again they didn't want Jedi forming attachments that could cause problems.

Shouldn't all Jedi fall into Anakins problem when they reach puberty and get horny?

I had the same thought to at first not about being horny per say but about love and emotions in general. However the Jedi are not forbidden to love or to fall in love. We see examples of this in The Clone Wars series. There just not allowed to form attachments. There not allowed to Marry period. It's not like there not allowed to have feelings like Anger, Lust, Sadness, etc. They are just supposed to be mind full of it. They are not allowed to let it control them and dictate there actions is all.

As C. Lee said the Jedi are supposed to think of the whole not the individual. There is merit to that thinking. However it is that thinking that lead to there down fall.

And thats good? The Jedi Obi-Wan describes in A New Hope did not sound like they would just be fine letting a huge group of people live under tyranny and enslaved. Not to mention Qui-Gon tried to free her too, so this isn't really an answer either.

Tatoonie fell outside the confines of the Republic. There for the laws with in the Republic don't apply to Tatoonie. Qui-Gon shouldn't have been trying to free her at all or Anakin for that matter. He supposed to keep on the mission at hand. The reason that Order never free Anakin mom is for two reason. The first of which I have given you. The second is that Tatoonie fell outside of the Republic so there for they could not up hold the anti slavery laws.

When you have a bunch of kids living together that are growing up it doesn't matter what kind of "training" they have, they're immature and I'm familiar with the EU, Obi-Wan and many other Jedi have had problems with their feelings.

True which is why they have mentors and teachers that are around them at all times. When they see issues arise they step in and deal with it.

Not to mention this whole system begs the question why Luke was hidden with Owen and Beru in the first place instead of just like being taken and trained by Obi-Wan? Why would he all of a sudden believe in free will?

For the same reason that they didn't keep Luke and Leia together. Obi-Won was powerful and Luke was just as powerful maybe more so. If Obi-Won started to train Luke then eventually the Empire would have found them. Yoda and Obi-Won wanted to keep the children safe. In fact there was no plan to train them at all when you get right down to it. I don't understand about the whole Free will bit.

But when Obi-Wan said "only a sith deals in absolutes" that was an absolute right there. Anyway that supports what I have to say in the first place, to say that Anakin turned to the Darkside and now he's just permanently evil because he did a few bad things just doesn't make sense. In the originals it was clear that the darkside was like a drug and Vader was addicted (even that line from Yoda you brought up supports this, you know once you start you can't stop), maybe if they had illustrated Anakin couldn't control himself then maybe it would have made more sense.

This is hard point to explain but I'm going to try. So let's look at Return of the Jedi because this is best movie that covers this very point. When Vader that he has twin sister and that if he won't turn then perhaps she will; This leads Luke to attacking Vader in a rage fit. At this point he begins to tap in to the darkside. However once he cuts off Vader hand and the emperor starts laughing he realize his mistake. Everything snaps in to view at that exact moment for Luke. It was like everything Yoda had told him made sudden sense.

What Luke realized was that he no better or worse then his father. That you can't defeat evil by doing evil it just doesn't work. The only way to defeat evil is to renounce it to let it go. It's to be aware of you're feelings so much so that when you feeling negative emotions they don't control you.

Some one who starts down the path to the darkside one of two things will happen. One they will learn as Luke learned and turn away from that path forever or they won't. They will continue to give in to it and the more they do the more it dominates them and controls them. This is the problem Anakin had. He allowed his emotions to control him and to drive him. Though he was a good man he could not escape the darkside because he couldn't put his emotions aside and not let it control him. This is what Yoda meant by once you start down the darkside forever will it dominate you're destiny.

He could told Luke hey you can go down darkside and then turn away from it. However that isn't very helpful. He need Luke to understand the seriousness of the situation. He figured Luke would figure it out that it doesn't have to dominate him at all. That once he see that something he doing is the path to the darkside he can quickly turn away from it and not be controlled by it. Which is exactly what he does at the end of Return of the Jedi.

Well if anyone thinks these movies are good and that I'm just arrogant and trying to pass my opinions as fact. I suggest you watch the redlettermedia reviews on youtube, they're quite entertaining and they're very well put together, and they illustrate exactly what I mean by these not being good movies. I came to the conclusion I wasn't big on Attack of the Clones and the Phantom Menace a long time ago but these reviews helped me put my finger on why. Anyway you can go ahead and write me off as arrogant or stupid, but at least humor me and watch the video. (Warning this is definitely a PG-13 review).

I don't think you're arrogant or stupid. You're asking questions and that's good. You can't find answers till you ask questions. The problem is you have to stop hating on the movies and really dive in to the movies and explore the in between stuff that isn't overly obvious. I'll give you an example.

Take Jar Jar Binks. Every one hates him. Yet he is one of the most important characters in the movie. It's Jar Jar Binks that shows use the flaw with the Jedi. In Episode I we see the order as it once was and what they order had become. Qui-Gon represented what the order use to be. Obi-Won represented what they order had become.

Now when Jar Jar takes them to Gungan city and as there about to leave Jar Jar ask for there help. Qui-Gon steps in to help even though he not supposed to because it doesn't pertain to the mission he on the code forbids it. He expains his action to Obi-Won saying that the Jar Jar can be of help and that they need a Navigator. There Jedi they don't really need his help nor do they need a Navigator. So why then did Qui-Gon step in and once again disobey the code. It was because the force spoke to him he had that feeling that some how Jar Jar would be useful though he didn't know how.

Guess what he was right. It was because of Jar Jar that he brought the Gungans and Naboo together which allowed them to defeat the trade Federation. If Qui-Gon had followed the code Jar Jar wouldn't have been able to lead them to the Gungan where Amadala is able to plead with the Gungans for help.

It's all there if you pay attention and read in between the lines just like the original movies where. In fact the prequels are even more riddled with hidden elements if you know how to find them. That in my opinion is what made the prequels so good.

Here is another one a simple one but another one non the less. When Obi-Won is talking to Anakin in Episode three before there famous duel Obi-Won says. "My allegiance is to the republic to democracy." again another flaw has just relieved it self to use. The Jedi Allegiance is to the force not to the government. The force serves life in general. It has no Allegiance to any one government or person.

At the end of the day it's all a matter of opinion.

 

[michael1975]

One more thing want to address and then I'll stop.

If we are made to believe that there's good in Anakin he would not of done it.

People do bad things for what they believe to be the right reasons all the time. It's especially true when it comes to those we care about.

Anakin sacrificed himself to the darkside in the hope he could find a way to save her. He was so desperate to save her he bought in to Palpatine lies. What he never considered is that by turning to the darkside he could set in motion the very thing that cause her death in the first place. I also believe that Anakin was arrogant enough to believe that he could turn to the darkside and not loose himself in the process. Yet the more gave in to the darkside the more he lost who he was which is exactly what the emperor wanted.

He didn't cease to be Anakin till he found out that he killed his wife. It was at this point that Anakin cease to exist and with it the lust for power. Vader lived to serve the empire. He had no desire to rule or to conquer anything for himself till he found out Luke was his son.

I

'm sorry, but you seem fairly oblivious to the horrors a human being can do. You can certainly say you're not agreeing with Anakin, or that you can't relate to him (I don't either), but it defies human thinking? You seem to be ignoring Hitler or other dictators.

And, anyway, the whole idea was to show him become a villain. Sure, Lucas coulda pulled his punches, but even from AotC he made Anakin a ruthless child murderer. And I'm glad he did. I want my villains to be villains, not just cool looking guys who kill in cool ways. What Lucas did with Anakin in the PT truly made him a monster.

And Vader couldn't live with himself after all the things he did. He was a dead man in a partially robotic body for 24 years. He was a shell of a human being. That was the point. People nowadays (and especially fanboys) have somehow lost the meaning of the word villain and tend to equate it to coolness. But a villain is many times someone who does despicable things, that challenge the views of the heroes and the audience.

You weren't supposed to agree with Anakin in the end, but mourn for him for going from the helpful selfless child in TPM to the selfish monster in RotS. If editing, acting, FX and that crap failed to make you feel that, that's fair enough. But there is no leap in logci there. Human beings are capable of such disgusting deeds. You just wouldn't do them. Doesn't mean others won't.

All I can say is well put my friend.

 

[Great Mind(s)]

Those are weak arguments for a dumb character. Anakin gets dreams of Padme dying and the next day, Palpatine tells Anakin the dark side can help people save the ones they love from dying. I mean how STUPID is Anakin to fall for that? Ray Charles could see that Palps is manipulating him. How are we supposed to give a crap about a character with such a low IQ?

And then Mace dies and Palpatine tells Anakin "only one could achieve it but if we work together I'm sure we could figure it out" uh ok? Again, low intelligence Anakin agrees to be the slave of Satan based on a whim? And your counter argument will be "Anakin is so desperate to save Padme" but why is that? The script demands it thats why. Cant Anakin see for a second that maybe the dreams are false? That hes being lied to? We the audience know he's being lied to, not because we'veseen the OT but because Palpatine doesn't hide it. Yet for some reason George insists thats a twist or something.

Anakin doesn't act like a human being would. Thats supposed to be the point? The good man that was Luke's father was always a nutjob? I thought he was a powerful Jedi, cunning warrior and good friend. He is when the script forces it on us. Like the beginning of ROTS, when they realized Anakin is none of those things so they shove it all in the first 10 minutes. Oh they're good friends because they talk about how they're good friends. We dont see them become friends, we are just told about fun times past. He's a cunning warrior/good man because he wants to turn around and save a clone and risk the mission to end the war? Oh right, Anakin is dumb.

And how was he seduced by the dark side if he was always bad?? Basically the prequels are prequels to some other series, not one where Anakin was a powerful Jedi who was tragically seduced by the dark side. One where Vader was always a nutjob killer. And while you think thats great, its because Lucas can't write anymore and its a lot easier to make Anakin bad from the start. Easier for him and easier for people to go along with the dumb story. No complexities, just a psycho with mommy issues.

I mean, he goes from good young boy to a completely different character between TPM-AOTC. Is this supposed to be development? Were all the complex stories told between the episodes? Lucas is skipping the hardest parts to write/direct. Aka the important character development. Anakin goes from one character to another to another without anything real happening to him. It's bad, lazy writing.

Also here's a great plot hole. So midichloran count determines if someone is force sensitive right? And from aotc to rots, Jedi are aware of Sidious controlling the senate. Why not blood test everyone and look for midichloreans? It was done in DS9 when everyone was afraid of changeling infiltrators. They would have seen Palpatine had a high midichloran count. Also why confront Sidious in his office? Why didnt Mace confront him in public? If he were to fight back with Sith powers he would be exposed, if he didn't fight back, they could blood test him and he'd be exposed. But Mace was stupid. Everyone in the prequels is stupid apparently or clouded by the dark side. So what's the point if every single thing anyone does in the PT is just Palpatine? C'mon now

 

[michael1975]

Anakin gets dreams of Padme dying and the next day, Palpatine tells Anakin the dark side can help people save the ones they love from dying. I mean how STUPID is Anakin to fall for that?

Fair enough question. Let me ask you this how much time did Yoda spend training Luke in Empire Strikes Back? The truth is we have no idea how much time went by. Just as we don't know how much time there was between Anakin receiving the visions and Palpatine telling him about Darth Plagues.

Anakin did seek help from Yoda only problem is that he didn't like the answer he got. Palpatine sits there and offers him a way of saving Padme. Now what we don't know is if Palpatine was the creator of those visions or he had this vision himself as well and used it to his advantage. I tend to believe that Palpatine had a vision of Padme fate and used it to his advantage.

Keep in mind Palpatine was a friend to Anakin and a mentor. Anakin looked up to him he had no reason to believe the worst about Palpatine at that moment.

Ray Charles could see that Palps is manipulating him. How are we supposed to give a crap about a character with such a low IQ?

So man but happens all the time. Do you know how many people especially young smart people are manipulated more often then you think. It makes it even worse when it's a Mentor or some sort of Authority figure like a teacher or Parent. However it still happens. Even when they know what there being asked to do is wrong they still do it. Some times it out of pressure other times they think there doing it out of love but there is always a reason. Has nothing to do with intelligence.

And then Mace dies and Palpatine tells Anakin "only one could achieve it but if we work together I'm sure we could figure it out" uh ok? Again, low intelligence Anakin agrees to be the slave of Satan based on a whim? And your counter argument will be "Anakin is so desperate to save Padme" but why is that? The script demands it thats why. Cant Anakin see for a second that maybe the dreams are false? That hes being lied to? We the audience know he's being lied to, not because we'veseen the OT but because Palpatine doesn't hide it. Yet for some reason George insists thats a twist or something.

You're right it was out of desperation that he was willing to go over to the Dark Side. Again no they weren't dreams they where visions. He had a perfectly good reason for trusting the visions. I mean he had a vision of his mother suffering and dying and they been going on for a while. By time he acted it was to late to save her and he lost her. When he had vision of Padme he choose to find a solution to the problem. Yoda solution was to let go of all attachments which meant giving up Padme and he didn't like that answer. Palpatine offered him solution that would allow him to save Padme only Anakin didn't stop to realize that that path meant loosing himself to the dark side in the process. I truly believe Anakin thought he was so powerful that he could turn to the dark side and not loose himself to it. That he could maintain who and what he stood for an learn what he need to save Padme.

The vision only showed Padme dying in child birth. It didn't show all the events leading up to to her death during child birth. Prophecy and vision (which I believe are generally the same) never show the lead up. So in essence with out realizing it by acting Anakin created the vision he was trying to prevent. A full fledged Jedi would have been patient and trust the force and let event's play out and only acted once he had enough information to go on.

The good man that was Luke's father was always a nutjob?

That's just it Anakin wasn't a nutjob. He was a man who was very passionate and cared about others to much. The problem is that he allowed his passions to guide him instead of letting the force guide him. This is no different then real life. People do bad things out of passion instead of letting logic and wisdom guide them. Anakin was a good man and that is the tragidy of the character is how that he cared so much that he allowed himself to be manipulated because of his passions. He did bad things and justified by saying he was doing it for the greater good or to save Padme.

I thought he was a powerful Jedi, cunning warrior and good friend. He is when the script forces it on us. Like the beginning of ROTS, when they realized Anakin is none of those things so they shove it all in the first 10 minutes. Oh they're good friends because they talk about how they're good friends. We dont see them become friends, we are just told about fun times past. He's a cunning warrior/good man because he wants to turn around and save a clone and risk the mission to end the war? Oh right, Anakin is dumb

I don't disagree with you to a certain degree. It would been nice if we had a single movie where the relationship between Anakin and Obi-Won change from that of Teacher and Student to them being friends. It would been nice to see Anakin as the cunning warrior he described in Episode 4. We didn't at least not in the movies. However we did get the Clone Wars Series which we did get to see these things. Also is it dumb that he wanted to save some one from being killed. While Obi-Won was right it didn't make Anakin dumb for wanting to save a fellow soldier from dying.

A

nd how was he seduced by the dark side if he was always bad?? Basically the prequels are prequels to some other series, not one where Anakin was a powerful Jedi who was tragically seduced by the dark side. One where Vader was always a nutjob killer. And while you think thats great, its because Lucas can't write anymore and its a lot easier to make Anakin bad from the start. Easier for him and easier for people to go along with the dumb story. No complexities, just a psycho with mommy issues.

We must have saw different movies. Anakin wasn't bad from the start. He was a good man who was manipulated and seduced to the dark side all an attempt to save the woman he loves.

Good people can be driven to do bad things; especially out of grief or desperation. Yes while the acts that Anakin commits are a bit extreme we must keep in mind that it is just a movie not reality. However the idea and thought behind what drove him to do the things that he does is a reflection of what we see around us.

What would you to if some one brutally tortured and murdered you're mother and you could get you're hands on them? Maybe you wouldn't act upon it but there would be some part of you that would want revenge. Yet while you might not act some one else would and I am sure it probably has happen before.

Again what we see is a good man who tragically falls down the wrong path because he allows his passion to rule his logic and failed to learn to control his passions. The tragidy in Anakin is that had he learn to control his passions he would have been a great Jedi knight who could have made a lot of change for the better. Yet instead he allowed his impatience and passion to rule him and made really poor choices.

I mean, he goes from good young boy to a completely different character between TPM-AOTC. Is this supposed to be development? Were all the complex stories told between the episodes? Lucas is skipping the hardest parts to write/direct. Aka the important character development. Anakin goes from one character to another to another without anything real happening to him. It's bad, lazy writing.

I agree Lucas should have done something different so we didn't have a big gap between episode 2. However there is a gap a ten year gap to be exact. So yea he is a completely different person. What did you expect him to be exactly the same person?

As I said I think Lucas should have done four movies versa three. Did Episode 1 and then did Episode 2 with Anakin train to be a Jedi. Then did Episode 3 where we see the Anakin and Obi-Won relationship change from Teacher and Student to becoming good friends. However he didn't and there is no sense crying about it. We have The Clone Wars which are Cannon now even with then new movies they are still Cannon. Those actually give use all that during the series run.

Also here's a great plot hole. So midichloran count determines if someone is force sensitive right? And from aotc to rots, Jedi are aware of Sidious controlling the senate. Why not blood test everyone and look for midichloreans?

Again you need to pay attention to the films. In episode 1 Qui-Gon tells Anakin Mom had he been born in the republic he would been tested. So any one in that was in the Senate had been tested when they where born. So this meant that they had no reason to suspect any one in the Senate to be a Dark Lord of the Sith. So the better question would be how did Palpatine get around this test?

Also you don't go in to the Senate and start demanding blood test from every senator. It would have angered a lot of the Senate. A lot of them would have felt like they where being accused of wrong doing. This would caused a lot of trouble for the Jedi that wouldn't not have ended well.

Haven't you ever wonder how the Jedi have all these ships and these big buildings and yet non of them hold any real jobs? It's because they get funding from the Senate at least that would be my guess. Now what happens if they lost that funding. The would basically be homeless and scattered across the galaxy. Palpatine wouldn't have wanted that he wanted them close by so he could wipe them out at the right time.

Palpatine was also the only one who would have authorized the test and he would have been the first one to have to take the test and he couldn't have that. He would have come up with some clever way of telling to Jedi no. So it wouldn't have worked no matter how you roll the dice and would have hurt the Jedi cause.

Also why confront Sidious in his office? Why didnt Mace confront him in public? If he were to fight back with Sith powers he would be exposed, if he didn't fight back, they could blood test him and he'd be exposed. But Mace was stupid.

You do remember Mace saying that Palpatine was to dangerous to be allowed to live. That he controlled to much of the courts and the Senate. Mace knew Palpatine would never be held accountable for his crimes. He would be released and the Jedi would suffer for it. You're forgetting the Republic for most part was corrupted to the very core. Palpatine brought the corruption under his control.

Let say Palpatine did fight the Jedi in front of the entire Senate. How many Senators would be put in harms way just to expose the Palpatine as a Sith Lord?

Everyone in the prequels is stupid apparently or clouded by the dark side. So what's the point if every single thing anyone does in the PT is just Palpatine? C'mon now

You're almost on the right track. Let me give you had and help you see everything clearly. Then go back watch the prequels again with what I'm about to say in mind.

Long ago Darth Bane decreed that there would always be one master and one apprentice. The idea was for the Sith to bide it's time to find the right moment to strike.

Now when Palpatine who was all ready a Master and a Dark Lord of the Sith took office he notice things. He notice the corruption with the Senate. Once more he notice that Jedi seemed oblivious to how bad the corruption was. Palpatine knew that the moment for Sith to strike a blow to the Jedi had finally arrived.

The Jedi had become complacent and arrogant. They followed the code and all these rules but failed to grow and change as an order. They lost there connection with the force. It wasn't as stronge as it once was. Not because the Dark Side clouded everything the Dark Side can't cloud the Force unless the Jedi are not as connected to it as they once where. A Jedi is supposed to listen to the will of the force. It guides there actions but also obeys there commands.

Had the Jedi not been so hell bent on following codes and listen to the will of the force and letting it guide there actions then things would been different. Had they fought for the the little people and not just governments they would been able to see the small things that help them see the big picture. Palpatine saw this and used it to his advantage.

The prequels allow use to see how masterful Palpatine was at manipulating events in to his favor. Even in defeat he was able to turn it in to a victory. That is what made it so great. It was like watching art. No matter how hard every one fought for peace it all played right in to Palpatine hands. There was no good side because both sides where bad. That was the tragidy of it all.

Obi-Won says his allegiance is to the Republic and to Democracy but he was wrong his Allegiance was to the will of the Force. The Force Allegiance is the all living things. Thus the Jedi Allegiance is to no one government but to all living things. The whole time during the clone wars did they ever stop to consider that they shouldn't be fighting at all they should been the peace keepers not soldiers. Instead they allowed themselves to be manipulated and dragged in to the war. Palpatine is the one that made that happen. The only reason it happen is because the Jedi had lost there way pure and simple.

So while you have small points I agree with for the most part I think you're wrong and need to really watch the films again and pay closer attention. Try and understand the movies of the characters. Look beyond the surface of the story and see the hidden aspects of the movies that give it more complexity.

I Won't say there as great as the original films but I also don't think there as bad as every one makes them out to be. I think there is a lot of meat and bones to the films. I am just one of the few rare people that see beyond the surface of the movie. Believe me I didn't start off that way. At first I hated Phantom Meance. It took me a while to see there was more to the films then I thought once I got past my preconceived notions of what I thought should happen.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Fair enough question. Let me ask you this how much time did Yoda spend training Luke in Empire Strikes Back? The truth is we have no idea how much time went by. Just as we don't know how much time there was between Anakin receiving the visions and Palpatine telling him about Darth Plagues.

Anakin did seek help from Yoda only problem is that he didn't like the answer he got. Palpatine sits there and offers him a way of saving Padme. Now what we don't know is if Palpatine was the creator of those visions or he had this vision himself as well and used it to his advantage. I tend to believe that Palpatine had a vision of Padme fate and used it to his advantage.

Keep in mind Palpatine was a friend to Anakin and a mentor. Anakin looked up to him he had no reason to believe the worst about Palpatine at that moment.

One point on the question of time passing in RotS. It is actually not very hard to tell how long it takes things to go by because of the missions everyone gets sent on. Because of this you can tell time passes relatively quickly. A few days if you will.

In ESB, the happenings on the Asteroid Field and Cloud City allow for some leeway. It could be a week, it could be a month, it could be longer. I always saw it as Luke spent a could of weeks with Yoda but you can make an argument for longer.

So man but happens all the time. Do you know how many people especially young smart people are manipulated more often then you think. It makes it even worse when it's a Mentor or some sort of Authority figure like a teacher or Parent. However it still happens. Even when they know what there being asked to do is wrong they still do it. Some times it out of pressure other times they think there doing it out of love but there is always a reason. Has nothing to do with intelligence.

The problem I always had with the manipulation of Anakin is we don't see much grooming at all. You would have thought that would have been a major part of the OT. If we are to believe Anakin is a good man who fears are preyed upon by this dark lord, you would get more sympathy if they actually showed some of the process. Instead you get a few scenes, most of which already show Anakin under the spell, and a lot of tell from other characters.

You're right it was out of desperation that he was willing to go over to the Dark Side. Again no they weren't dreams they where visions. He had a perfectly good reason for trusting the visions. I mean he had a vision of his mother suffering and dying and they been going on for a while. By time he acted it was to late to save her and he lost her. When he had vision of Padme he choose to find a solution to the problem. Yoda solution was to let go of all attachments which meant giving up Padme and he didn't like that answer. Palpatine offered him solution that would allow him to save Padme only Anakin didn't stop to realize that that path meant loosing himself to the dark side in the process. I truly believe Anakin thought he was so powerful that he could turn to the dark side and not loose himself to it. That he could maintain who and what he stood for an learn what he need to save Padme.

The vision only showed Padme dying in child birth. It didn't show all the events leading up to to her death during child birth. Prophecy and vision (which I believe are generally the same) never show the lead up. So in essence with out realizing it by acting Anakin created the vision he was trying to prevent. A full fledged Jedi would have been patient and trust the force and let event's play out and only acted once he had enough information to go on.

Not these full fledged Jedi. They are idiots.

Anakin giving into the darkside to save Padme, easy money. Makes sense, and it emphasis his fear of loss. What doesn't make sense is that Anakin becomes a drone who is suddenly completely willing to slice up kids.

Again, if Anakin is suppose to be a good man who turned wretched by the darkside, maybe you show a bit more development before he turns straight into a baby killer. It reeks of BS storytelling. Basically Anakin has to turn to the darkside before the end of RotS, so he does.

This will be a common theme throughout this post.

That's just it Anakin wasn't a nutjob. He was a man who was very passionate and cared about others to much. The problem is that he allowed his passions to guide him instead of letting the force guide him. This is no different then real life. People do bad things out of passion instead of letting logic and wisdom guide them. Anakin was a good man and that is the tragidy of the character is how that he cared so much that he allowed himself to be manipulated because of his passions. He did bad things and justified by saying he was doing it for the greater good or to save Padme.

What about Anakin shows he is a good man? That is the thing, Anakin is never portrayed as a good man. Brash, arrogant, selfish, unwilling to listen, creepy, clingy, possessive? Yep. But a good man, when?

His connection to Padme is never shown to be love. It is shown to be possessive. This is classic show, don't tell. We are told he loves Padme. He never actually shows it. Every big moment with Padme is about how he can't lose her. It is always about him. The only time Anakin is a good person is the end of TESB and RotJ. Where he places the well being of his son above his own.

IF you want a very simple example in Star Wars, look at the relationship between Luke, Han and Leia. Three dear friends who through their actions display their love, caring and affection for one another.

I don't disagree with you to a certain degree. It would been nice if we had a single movie where the relationship between Anakin and Obi-Won change from that of Teacher and Student to them being friends. It would been nice to see Anakin as the cunning warrior he described in Episode 4. We didn't at least not in the movies. However we did get the Clone Wars Series which we did get to see these things. Also is it dumb that he wanted to save some one from being killed. While Obi-Won was right it didn't make Anakin dumb for wanting to save a fellow soldier from dying.

Anakin of the Clone Wars series is a very different character from what is seen in the PT.

We must have saw different movies. Anakin wasn't bad from the start. He was a good man who was manipulated and seduced to the dark side all an attempt to save the woman he loves.

Good people can be driven to do bad things; especially out of grief or desperation. Yes while the acts that Anakin commits are a bit extreme we must keep in mind that it is just a movie not reality. However the idea and thought behind what drove him to do the things that he does is a reflection of what we see around us.

What would you to if some one brutally tortured and murdered you're mother and you could get you're hands on them? Maybe you wouldn't act upon it but there would be some part of you that would want revenge. Yet while you might not act some one else would and I am sure it probably has happen before.

Again what we see is a good man who tragically falls down the wrong path because he allows his passion to rule his logic and failed to learn to control his passions. The tragidy in Anakin is that had he learn to control his passions he would have been a great Jedi knight who could have made a lot of change for the better. Yet instead he allowed his impatience and passion to rule him and made really poor choices.

Once again, when do we see this good man who is manipulated?

It isn't like Star Wars doesn't have good men who are flawed. Luke has many of the same problems as Anakin, but they never had a problem showing his good qualities. The same with Han and Obi-Wan. All three are very flawed, but all three shine through as good men.

I agree Lucas should have done something different so we didn't have a big gap between episode 2. However there is a gap a ten year gap to be exact. So yea he is a completely different person. What did you expect him to be exactly the same person?

As I said I think Lucas should have done four movies versa three. Did Episode 1 and then did Episode 2 with Anakin train to be a Jedi. Then did Episode 3 where we see the Anakin and Obi-Won relationship change from Teacher and Student to becoming good friends. However he didn't and there is no sense crying about it. We have The Clone Wars which are Cannon now even with then new movies they are still Cannon. Those actually give use all that during the series run.

So isn't that massive flaw that severely harms the character of Anakin Skywalker?

The idea that a television series that came out years later fixes the clear flaws with the characters in the films, is a clear flaw in logic imo.

Again you need to pay attention to the films. In episode 1 Qui-Gon tells Anakin Mom had he been born in the republic he would been tested. So any one in that was in the Senate had been tested when they where born. So this meant that they had no reason to suspect any one in the Senate to be a Dark Lord of the Sith. So the better question would be how did Palpatine get around this test?

Also you don't go in to the Senate and start demanding blood test from every senator. It would have angered a lot of the Senate. A lot of them would have felt like they where being accused of wrong doing. This would caused a lot of trouble for the Jedi that wouldn't not have ended well.

Haven't you ever wonder how the Jedi have all these ships and these big buildings and yet non of them hold any real jobs? It's because they get funding from the Senate at least that would be my guess. Now what happens if they lost that funding. The would basically be homeless and scattered across the galaxy. Palpatine wouldn't have wanted that he wanted them close by so he could wipe them out at the right time.

Palpatine was also the only one who would have authorized the test and he would have been the first one to have to take the test and he couldn't have that. He would have come up with some clever way of telling to Jedi no. So it wouldn't have worked no matter how you roll the dice and would have hurt the Jedi cause.

The Jedi don't have real jobs? They are space knights who risk their life constantly. That is their job.

As to the original point, this is just one example of the invention of those horrible little things was a bad idea. It makes these thins verifiable, and kind of negates the mystical way big P builds.

You do remember Mace saying that Palpatine was to dangerous to be allowed to live. That he controlled to much of the courts and the Senate. Mace knew Palpatine would never be held accountable for his crimes. He would be released and the Jedi would suffer for it. You're forgetting the Republic for most part was corrupted to the very core. Palpatine brought the corruption under his control.

Let say Palpatine did fight the Jedi in front of the entire Senate. How many Senators would be put in harms way just to expose the Palpatine as a Sith Lord?

I agree with the initial point. Exposing Palpatine is irrelevant. He has an army, and can shoot lightning out of his hands. He simply kills the Jedi that came after him, and both he and Anakin wipe out the entire Senate and then blame it on the Jedi.

Mace taking so long to cut off Palpatine's head is the big flaw.

You're almost on the right track. Let me give you had and help you see everything clearly. Then go back watch the prequels again with what I'm about to say in mind.

Long ago Darth Bane decreed that there would always be one master and one apprentice. The idea was for the Sith to bide it's time to find the right moment to strike.

Now when Palpatine who was all ready a Master and a Dark Lord of the Sith took office he notice things. He notice the corruption with the Senate. Once more he notice that Jedi seemed oblivious to how bad the corruption was. Palpatine knew that the moment for Sith to strike a blow to the Jedi had finally arrived.

The Jedi had become complacent and arrogant. They followed the code and all these rules but failed to grow and change as an order. They lost there connection with the force. It wasn't as stronge as it once was. Not because the Dark Side clouded everything the Dark Side can't cloud the Force unless the Jedi are not as connected to it as they once where. A Jedi is supposed to listen to the will of the force. It guides there actions but also obeys there commands.

Had the Jedi not been so hell bent on following codes and listen to the will of the force and letting it guide there actions then things would been different. Had they fought for the the little people and not just governments they would been able to see the small things that help them see the big picture. Palpatine saw this and used it to his advantage.

The prequels allow use to see how masterful Palpatine was at manipulating events in to his favor. Even in defeat he was able to turn it in to a victory. That is what made it so great. It was like watching art. No matter how hard every one fought for peace it all played right in to Palpatine hands. There was no good side because both sides where bad. That was the tragidy of it all.

Obi-Won says his allegiance is to the Republic and to Democracy but he was wrong his Allegiance was to the will of the Force. The Force Allegiance is the all living things. Thus the Jedi Allegiance is to no one government but to all living things. The whole time during the clone wars did they ever stop to consider that they shouldn't be fighting at all they should been the peace keepers not soldiers. Instead they allowed themselves to be manipulated and dragged in to the war. Palpatine is the one that made that happen. The only reason it happen is because the Jedi had lost there way pure and simple.

So while you have small points I agree with for the most part I think you're wrong and need to really watch the films again and pay closer attention. Try and understand the movies of the characters. Look beyond the surface of the story and see the hidden aspects of the movies that give it more complexity.

I Won't say there as great as the original films but I also don't think there as bad as every one makes them out to be. I think there is a lot of meat and bones to the films. I am just one of the few rare people that see beyond the surface of the movie. Believe me I didn't start off that way. At first I hated Phantom Meance. It took me a while to see there was more to the films then I thought once I got past my preconceived notions of what I thought should happen.

The major flaw in this entire reasoning is that there is nothing masterful in what the Emperor does. The Jedi are so dumb, it makes it child's play.

This could never be Sherlock v. Moriarty because neither side displays the smarts or cunning for it to be this masterful battle.

And you completely misinterpret Obi-Wan's words. The Jedi were the guardians of the Republic. Not the government, but the people. That is what they did. They specifically went out of their way to avoid getting involved with government matters, only taking action when the lives of the people were at risk.

The Jedi are not subject to the Will of the Force, as it neglects that they are living beings who serve as protectors.

 

[Great Mind(s)]

I like the story of Palpatine manipulating everyone to rise to power, turning the public against the Jedi, etc. But it's not done that well. I wish the creators of the Clone Wars show were able to re-tell ROTS their own way, continuing from what they did in the series. It's also weird that the Jedi test everyone at a young age. I mean, surely some people would refuse their kids to be tested? Like space-Jenny McCarthy

 

[Octoberist]

Michael 1975 - The ONE dude who comes to the ANTI-Prequel thread, in order to defend it. Counter-initiative I must say! Just teasing, Mike, but come on!

 

[michael1975]

Michael 1975 - The ONE dude who comes to the ANTI-Prequel thread, in order to defend it. Counter-initiative I must say! Just teasing, Mike, but come on!

I just see the movie differently then the every one. I don't think there as bad as every one makes them out to be. The prequels have every thing you need to understand and enjoy the films. The movies have a lot more depth then people people really realize.

I could sit here till cows come home and offer counters to every single argument and it wouldn't matter. People are going to have their own views on the prequels. I enjoy the films and love the depth that are in the prequels. So at the end of the day why defend the movies from people who see no actually value in the films.

 

[Octoberist]

Sure that's fine..But you're missing my point: Why are you defending the Prequels in the official Anti-Prequel Discussion Thread?

 

[chamber-music]

 

[Human Torch]

I just see the movie differently then the every one. I don't think there as bad as every one makes them out to be. The prequels have every thing you need to understand and enjoy the films. The movies have a lot more depth then people people really realize.

I could sit here till cows come home and offer counters to every single argument and it wouldn't matter. People are going to have their own views on the prequels. I enjoy the films and love the depth that are in the prequels. So at the end of the day why defend the movies from people who see no actually value in the films.

Well,kudos for putting in the effort.From one PT fan to another.

 

[BatLobster]

I don't really see a problem with Anakin's turn. To me the tragedy of it is that he gives into his crippling fear of loss and makes a really horrible decision in that one moment. He immediately regrets it ("What have I done?"). But it's too late. The only option left he has at that point is to become Palpatine's apprentice, which includes committing unspeakable atrocities (which he carries out with tears in his eyes). The only way for him to justify the path he has chosen is to continue clinging to this idea that the powers of dark side will give him control over his own destiny and peace and security for the galaxy. He has to believe that the ends will justify the means, although I personally think that deep down he knows he made the wrong choice the moment he slices Mace's hand off and everything after that is a lie he's telling himself to bury that regret. That's why "there's still good in him".

I understand this is the anti-PT thread, and I have plenty of things I dislike about the PT, but Anakin's fall isn't one of them. It was extremely tragic, even moreso than I originally imagined it would be. Anakin maybe wasn't the sharpest tool in the shed, but he wasn't dumb either. Just very human and controlled by his emotions (a fitting backstory for a man who ends up as a cold and calculating cyborg). Throw some righteous anger at the Jedi into the equation (because they were clearly portrayed as very flawed themselves in the PT), and you've got a recipe for disaster.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

The problem with Anakin's turn is that it's not the reason most people on a good path turn to evil.

Maybe if Anakin went to the dark side out of a thirst for power and greed because he felt the jedi were simply public servants his turn would have far more relatable symbolism.

They tried to make Anakin's turn somewhat noble which just sends mixed messages.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

I loved the recent trailer.

Maybe it's just me but I get an anti-prequel vibe with limited cgi, aged/dirty technology, acting that isn't tongue in cheek, etc.

Fingers crossed.

 

[HarryOsborn]

Michael one thing dating has taught me, is if you have to have explanations for why something's okay that are substantially longer than the criticism itself, then most likely you're in denial. No hard feelings bud, but I had to toss that out there.

 

[HarryOsborn]

I loved the recent trailer.

Maybe it's just me but I get an anti-prequel vibe with limited cgi, aged/dirty technology, acting that isn't tongue in cheek, etc.

Fingers crossed.

Almost every shot was anti-prequel. JB revealed in stormtrooper armor is black and not of hawaiian decent- making it clear he is not a clone (at least a Jango Clone). The ball droid was included to show they are using practical effects. The shot of the storm troopers demonstrated different filming techniques than GL used. A general lack of aliens showed a limit of ridiculous creatures. Etc. They really went out of their way to send the message this time.

 

[Sorath]

The problem with Anakin's turn is that it's not the reason most people on a good path turn to evil.

Maybe if Anakin went to the dark side out of a thirst for power and greed because he felt the jedi were simply public servants his turn would have far more relatable symbolism.

They tried to make Anakin's turn somewhat noble which just sends mixed messages.

I disagree. Good people do bad things all the time out of jealousy and rage. In flash of a second there lives can go down a very dark path. Some mange to put it back on track others just never recover and fall to darkness.

You're right that his turn was meant to be noble that was the point. There is an old saying "Hell is paved with good intentions.". Anakin did what he did because he believed that it was the only way to save some one he loved. In the end that is what saved him an allowed him to hold on some shred of his humanity.

 

[BatLobster]

There is an old saying "Hell is paved with good intentions.". Anakin did what he did because he believed that it was the only way to save some one he loved. In the end that is what saved him an allowed him to hold on some shred of his humanity.

Yup, it's exactly that. The path to hell is paved with good intentions, that was the point.

Anakin had to turn in a way that still allowed him to be redeemable in the end. The story of I-VI is the rise, fall and redemption of Anakin Skywalker. If Anakin's turn was one of pure malice and power thirst then it would be harder to root for his redemption in the end. The guy definitely had a chip on his shoulder, and probably a bit of a "Force complex", but his flaws were very much rooted in common human emotions. Anakin is a young man who wants to have it all but instead loses everything. It's a very Faustian tale.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

I never liked that saying "the path to hell is paved with good intentions".

Don't the jedi have good intentions? Don't most noble people have good intentions?

Why would you discourage people from having GOOD intentions?

From what I've experienced people who doom themselves do so out of selfishness and malice the vast majority of the time.

 

[BatLobster]

I disagree and in my experience I find that saying to be profoundly true. It's not about discouraging people from having good intentions. It's about acknowledging that it's a slippery slope to the dark side and someone truly and wholly evil (like the Emperor) can exploit the intentions of basically good men for his own aim. It's about human vulnerability and how a good man can be corrupted if his passions aren't balanced with humility and grace. Anakin feared losing the ones he loved. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering. Again it's about that slippery slope and how a good intention (to protect his wife) can be twisted until it's eventually unrecognizable.

The Jedi did have good intentions, but their problem was that they had become bloated and complacent, stuck in their ways and eventually left in the dust. There are a lot of shades of gray in the PT.

The constant back and forth sway between the light and the dark (represented by Jedi and Sith) in the saga seems to very much be a story of adaptation. Each side has periods where they have to evolve and adapt in order to gain the upper hand. In I-VI Anakin's life as a whole kind of represents this back and forth pendulum. His internal life mirrors the external life of the galaxy.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

I disagree and in my experience I find that saying to be profoundly true. It's not about discouraging people from having good intentions. It's about acknowledging that it's a slippery slope to the dark side and someone truly and wholly evil (like the Emperor) can exploit the intentions of basically good men for his own aim. It's about human vulnerability and how a good man can be corrupted if his passions aren't balanced with humility and grace. Anakin feared losing the ones he loved. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering. Again it's about that slippery slope and how a good intention (to protect his wife) can be twisted until it's eventually unrecognizable.

The Jedi did have good intentions, but their problem was that they had become bloated and complacent, stuck in their ways and eventually left in the dust. There are a lot of shades of gray in the PT.

The constant back and forth sway between the light and the dark (represented by Jedi and Sith) in the saga seems to very much be a story of adaptation. Each side has periods where they have to evolve and adapt in order to gain the upper hand. In I-VI Anakin's life as a whole kind of represents this back and forth pendulum. His internal life mirrors the external life of the galaxy.

1) It may be true that good intentions can be exploited but the way this was explored in the prequels was pretty cheesy. Darth Vader became one of the greatest villains because someone promised him if he turned to the dark side he could protect his wife.

That's a weak reason and unworthy of Darth Vader.

Vader should resort to atrocities to protect his home planet or something with a bigger scope.


2) What makes you think the jedi were too complacent? How were they complacent?

3) Anikan didn't come off as a complex and grey character. He just seemed like a whiney, arrogant brat who ended up being extremely gullible. What could've been an admirable and heroic figure who falls from grace due to pride and blind ambition was instead completely wasted.

 

[BatLobster]

Star Wars has always come down to family ties. So yeah, IMO protecting his wife was a perfectly fitting reason for Anakin to turn. Protect his home planet? Eh, Anakin was born a slave. I don't know that he had too much of a sentimental attachment to Tatooine anyhow. The only attachment there was his mother.

The problem is that people tend to think of Darth Vader as the ultimate evil in the Star Wars universe due to his portrayal in the first two movies, but Return of the Jedi makes it perfectly clear that he's a pathetic shell of a man who lives in fear of his master. A man who made a deal with the devil and lost his soul.

As far as the Jedi in the PT go...they were arrogant and thought themselves to be the masters of the Force. Rigid in their dogma. They initially scoffed at the idea of the Sith returning. Eventually manipulated into fighting a war. They were blindsided because they were so vulnerable in their comfy 'relationship' with the senate. Just look at the difference between the Jedi you knew from the OT and how they were in the PT. That's the whole point of the Qui-Gon character. He was the rogue, he knew the Jedi Order was getting off track from what it needed to be.

Lastly, I can agree on Anakin's characterization not being as great as it could've been but I see that as more a dialogue/performance issue. The reasons behind his turn are perfectly in line with the themes of the saga.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

We'll have to agree to disagree on the merits of Anakin's turn.

But I wouldn't call the jedi's fatal flaw as complacency, I'd use the term too institutionalized. But that's just a personal pet peeve.

 

[BatLobster]

Fair enough. You're definitely right, they were too institutionalized but I guess the way I see it, they had become complacent about that because they were stuck in their ways and did nothing to reverse the ill-fated course they were on.

 

[dax]

1) It may be true that good intentions can be exploited but the way this was explored in the prequels was pretty cheesy. Darth Vader became one of the greatest villains because someone promised him if he turned to the dark side he could protect his wife.

That's a weak reason and unworthy of Darth Vader.

It's that very same reason Vader used to try to turn Luke in ROTJ. When Vader said, "Give yourself to the dark side. It is the only way you can save your friends", He pretty much told the audience why he became evil in the first place. He thought that turning to the dark side would help him save Padme and he found out the hard way that he was wrong so now, Vader is trying to trick Luke the same way that PalpSidious tricked him.

2) What makes you think the jedi were too complacent? How were they complacent?

They didn't adapt to the changing times, especially when Anakin joined their ranks. It's like what Yoda said in ESB, "All of his life as he looked away to the future, to the horizon. Never, his mind on where he was...what he was doing" because he realized that he and the rest of the Jedi order were so busy sitting in their ivory tower looking to the future through the force, that they weren't paying attention to what was happening at the moment until it was too late.

3) Anikan didn't come off as a complex and grey character. He just seemed like a whiney, arrogant brat who ended up being extremely gullible. What could've been an admirable and heroic figure who falls from grace due to pride and blind ambition was instead completely wasted.

You'd be whiny too if you're not getting any appreciation or respect from the Jedi and when you have a Sith lord whose pretending to be a politician feeding your ego on a daily basis, you'd be arrogant too.