The Avengers The Avengers: News and Speculation - Part 27A sub-se - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 53

[BobbyCorwin88]

The montage works. It demonstrated the passage of time and showed that Cap had some actual experience under his belt beyond one rescue. The movie stumbles a bit during the Bucky death scene and the transition from that to the Red Skull plane fight. It's rushed and all feels a bit off. It picks back up after Cap kisses Peggy goodbye.

That's the thing though. I didn't really care to see any kind of passage of time or that Cap had lots of experience. I could tell that Cap possessed every qualification necessary when he first appeared on screen as a scrawny kid who never gave up. All I wanted to see was one coherent scene in which Cap and the commandos execute a mission and advance the plot further. The one part of that montage that should have had weight to it (the glance of Peggy in the locket) was lost on me since Peggy herself was watching that very footage from a news reel. I just thought it was so weird that the news reel was conveniently able to push in on the locket to show Peggy what was up. That would have had so much more emotional weight to it if Peggy didn't see it and Cap looked at it in an instance when he needed some encouragement. Peggy would learn Steve's devotion to her later anyway.

 

[Crimson King]

Are you talking about Abomination? Cause I think he looked horrendous when he talked. Really made the character glaringly fake. What completely CGI character on a Marvel Studios budget looked great when he talked?

I wasn't talking about Abomination. I'm referring to ILM and WETA characters. They're both working on Avengers, right?

 

[Gamma Burst]

It was, and it was perfect demonstration of what Hulk is about. Anyone who disagrees doesn't understand the Hulk character. Hulk, at first, resents Banner. He views him as a "puny human" who is emotionally stunted and weak.

And the "take it all!" part is another perfect demonstration of what Hulk is about. It showed that his rage, the emotion, makes his power practically limitless. His rage fuelled his power to the point where Absorbing Man couldn't handle it anymore. It was a great way to show Hulk's power without him just smashing the **** out of some bad guy.

I couldn't agree more.

 

[BoredGuy]

ah crap...
we're at this point, huh?
no real news, and the long slog till May
let the petty arguments commence!

 

[Chewy]

That's the thing though. I didn't really care to see any kind of passage of time or that Cap had lots of experience. I could tell that Cap possessed every qualification necessary when he first appeared on screen as a scrawny kid who never gave up. All I wanted to see was one coherent scene in which Cap and the commandos execute a mission and advance the plot further. The one part of that montage that should have had weight to it (the glance of Peggy in the locket) was lost on me since Peggy herself was watching that very footage from a news reel. I just thought it was so weird that the news reel was conveniently able to push in on the locket to show Peggy what was up. That would have had so much more emotional weight to it if Peggy didn't see it and Cap looked at it in an instance when he needed some encouragement. Peggy would learn Steve's devotion to her later anyway.

He didn't possess fighting experience, or self-confidence, or a real battle-hardened will. Those are things that require hard time on the battlefield.

They were able to push the camera in on the locket because he had it sitting on the table. Once he noticed the camera aimed at it he closed it, embarrassed. It's not like he pointed it at the camera.

I think the train scene should have been longer, and let the characters breathe a bit. 4-5 additional minutes of footage there would have helped and given Bucky's death more weight. That's basically the film's biggest flaw.

 

[Xeno]

It was a cop out because it was completely unbelievable. He didn't have to "sacrifice" himself. The plane wasn't going to do any damage if HE COULD STEER IT WHERE EVER HE WANTED. This was supposed to be the brilliant tactician Captain America? Really, really poor writing. As much as I LOVE the heartfelt exchange between Peggy and Steve, I would have gladly exchanged that with a crash scene that didn't make him look like a doofus.

Doing it like the comics, where he either A) fell off the plane and into the ice or B) had to by brute force crash the plane because it's operating system was damaged, make it believable.

But Steve couldn't steer it anywhere he wanted. The Red Skull had set the automatic pilot for New York before he and Captain America fought in the cockpit. During the fight, the plane's power source (the Tesseract) was removed, then it burned through the plane. In addition, Cap and Schmidt smashed into the controls while they were fighting, presumably damaging the autopilot system. After the fight, Cap tried to switch off the autopilot but couldn't. The display of the plane's internal systems also showed extensive damage. It was headed for New York and Cap could not alter its course because of the damaged navigation system. All he could do at that point is bring the plane down where it would do no harm.


The writers could have made that more explicit as it seems that a lot of people didn't pick up on the extensive damage caused by the fight and the Tesseract burning through the plane. (And yeah, I just did re-watch that scene.)

 

[The Morningstar]

I don't see any petty arguments. I see some people saying they like the way Hulk was portrayed in TIH, and that they like the idea of Banner controlling Hulk.

For me, that's an incorrect way to portray the character. Simple as that, really. Hulk isn't to be controlled by Banner. Hulk is his own character, his own persona, who eventually comes to terms with his place in the world and develops his own sense of wrong and right. AS HULK. Not Hulk controlled by Banner.

 

[liveman789]

Just a little MEME I made because I was bored. More to come, probably.

 

[Chewy]

ah crap...
we're at this point, huh?
no real news, and the long slog till May
let the petty arguments commence!

But of course

 

[The Morningstar]

hahaha that's just mean.

 

[weezerspider]

The plane's moving fast. The landing gear is damaged. Cap doesn't know if he'll be able to dispose of the bombs in another way without them detonating. If he travels much further he starts to near a populated area. He nosedives the plane.

I don't really know why people take such issue with it. Sure there could have been a line about autopilot being locked, which would have explained why Cap couldn't have aimed it downward and 'chuted out. But that's minor

I don't have a HUGE problem with it. I feel his conversation with Peggy during it is the best part of the weak 3rd act and his conversation with Peggy is much more important to the character and overall story then the exact reasons why Cap crashes the plane.The overall idea works, but the execution is really poor. We could have at least gotten a minute of screen time devoted to him trying to stop it some other way.

 

[DoomsdayApex]

Just a little MEME I made because I was bored. More to come, probably.

*save*

:

 

[Alexei Belyakov]

Where does Hulk talk in Ang's film? Apart from the dream scene where he smashes through the mirror and calls Banner a puny human and at the end when he screams "take it aaaalllll!". Two excellent moments that show more characterisation for the Hulk character than TIH in it's entirety.

It was, and it was perfect demonstration of what Hulk is about. Anyone who disagrees doesn't understand the Hulk character. Hulk, at first, resents Banner. He views him as a "puny human" who is emotionally stunted and weak.

And the "take it all!" part is another perfect demonstration of what Hulk is about. It showed that his rage, the emotion, makes his power practically limitless. His rage fuelled his power to the point where Absorbing Man couldn't handle it anymore. It was a great way to show Hulk's power without him just smashing the **** out of some bad guy.

I couldn't dissagree more.

It looked and sounded ridiculous.

It didn't work for me on any level - which says alot considering the lengths Ang went to in the film to remind me I was watching a "Comic Book Movie."

Again, I think TIH was on the right path and because of all its exposition, come a second film, I could have been finessed into buying the talking Hulk bit.

If Ruffalo Hulk just starts yappin' away like EMH Hulk I doubt the GA will be able to control their laughter.

You gotta eaaaaaaaase 'em in.

 

[liveman789]

Here's another.

 

[Chewy]

Here's another.

Should have used Blue Steel

 

[The Morningstar]

I couldn't dissagree more.

It looked and sounded ridiculous.

It didn't work for me on any level - which says alot considering the lengths Ang went to in the film to remind me I was watching a "Comic Book Movie."

Again, I think TIH was on the right path and because of all its exposition, come a second film, I could have been finessed into buying the talking Hulk bit.

If Ruffalo Hulk just starts yappin' away like EMH Hulk I doubt the GA will be able to control their laughter.

You gotta eaaaaaaaase 'em in.

I don't know how anyone who understands or likes the Hulk character can not like those moments. In one single line of dialogue "puny human" it characterises the Hulk character, as an individual, as a personality all of his own, better than anything in TIH.

It's not like he was having full blown conversations. They were simple lines of dialogue that summarize exactly what the Hulk character is about. He resents Banner, he views him as a puny, emotionally stunted weakling. That is Hulk.

TIH is not on the right path. Because it indicates that Banner will have some control over the Hulk and be able to switch him on at will. Which is completely missing the point of the Hulk character and completely eradicates the more compelling, psychological angle that the character is essentially about. Banner shouldn't control Hulk, consciously shaping him into a hero. Hulk, the individual, the character of his own, should make that decision. Hulk, the individual should accept his place in the world and realise he can be a force for good, by himself. It adds depth and complexity to the character that doesn't require Banner.

 

[Crimson King]

Isn't the Avengers sort of TIH Hulk's second film? If speech is his next progression of character, why is his speaking in Avengers considered laughable?

I'd say it's more laughable to continue portraying him as a CGI roaring machine.

 

[Crimson King]

double post

 

[Spideyfan93]

I like to think that immediately after The Incredible Hulk ends, Norton spontaneously grows Ruffy hair and alternates to appear as Mark Ruffalo. This then, is immediately accepted.


As if that transformation is normal...compared to that green beast within.

 

[Gamma Burst]

Isn't the Avengers sort of TIH Hulk's second film? If speech is his next progression of character, why is his speaking in Avengers considered laughable?

I'd say it's more laughable to continue portraying him as a CGI roaring machine.

You can only be fine with this if you don't have a clue about what the character really is.

 

[Chewy]

I like to think that immediately after The Incredible Hulk ends, Norton spontaneously grows Ruffy hair and alternates to appear as Mark Ruffalo. This then, is immediately accepted.


As if that transformation is normal...compared to that green beast within.

He got plastic surgery and hair implants... this in turn made the Hulk look Ruffish. Because that's how plastic surgery works

 

[Alexei Belyakov]

I don't know how anyone who understands or likes the Hulk character can not like those moments. In one single line of dialogue "puny human" it characterises the Hulk character better than anything in TIH.

It's not like he was having full blown conversations. They were simple lines of dialogue that summarize exactly what the Hulk character is about. He resents Banner, he views him as a puny, emotionally stunted weakling. That is Hulk.

They just didn't work for me. They immediately removed me from reality (which I was already struggling to hang on to) and placed me in Toon Town (the Hulk's dialogue reminded me of the gorilla bouncer that throws Bob Hoskins into some garbage cans in Who Framed Roger Rabbit?)

Isn't the Avengers sort of TIH Hulk's second film? If speech is his next progression of character, why is his speaking in Avengers considered laughable?

There's no guarantee so far that the Banner from TIH is the same Banner from Avengers, not to mention, without Norton its not exactly the smoothest transition.

I'd say it's more laughable to continue portraying him as a CGI roaring machine.

There's nothing laughable about TIH hulk. He's out of control in TIH. He's Banner in a heightened state - i.e. the scene where he compares the transformations to the college study he did to Betty in the car.

Without control, with resistance, having Hulk talk just wouldn't work. The idea of the film's end with Banner controlling Hulk was a good way to begin that evolution though.

You can only be fine with this if you don't have a clue about what the character really is.

Bollocks. Absolute bollocks.

The Hulk is not defined by his ability to talk. There's a much stronger story in Banner's struggle to be human again than in the Hulk being able to have a conversation about college basketball.

 

[Rock Sexton]

I couldn't dissagree more.

It looked and sounded ridiculous.

It didn't work for me on any level - which says alot considering the lengths Ang went to in the film to remind me I was watching a "Comic Book Movie."

Again, I think TIH was on the right path and because of all its exposition, come a second film, I could have been finessed into buying the talking Hulk bit.

If Ruffalo Hulk just starts yappin' away like EMH Hulk I doubt the GA will be able to control their laughter.

You gotta eaaaaaaaase 'em in.

Oh my God, am I agreeing with AB?

 

[Gamma Burst]

They just didn't work for me. They immediately removed me from reality (which I was already struggling to hang on to) and placed me in Toon Town (the Hulk's dialogue reminded me of the gorilla bouncer that throws Bob Hoskins into some garbage cans in Who Framed Roger Rabbit?)



There's no guarantee so far that the Banner from TIH is the same Banner from Avengers, not to mention, without Norton its not exactly the smoothest transition.



There's nothing laughable about TIH hulk. He's out of control in TIH. He's Banner in a heightened state - i.e. the scene where he compares the transformations to the college study he did to Betty in the car.

Without control, with resistance, having Hulk talk just wouldn't work. The idea of the film's end with Banner controlling Hulk was a good way to begin that evolution though.



Bollocks. Absolute bollocks.

The Hulk is not defined by his ability to talk. There's a much stronger story in Banner's struggle to be human again than in the Hulk being able to have a conversation about college basketball.

Coming from you, it doesn't surprise me at all: you really don't have a clue about Hulk or most of these characters at all. Read more comics!

 

[Alexei Belyakov]

Oh my God, am I agreeing with AB?

Welcome back.