Arrow The Barry Allen/The Flash Thread - Part 2

[Rorschach2012]

There's a difference between criticisms that deserve to be respected and the **** the Kevin Smith is coming up with. He's literally looking at a few sentences in a casting announcement and saying "I don't like anything they're doing with this character!!!"

Criticism is fine. Nonsense, however, deserves what it gets.

Once again. A lack of understanding of the word opinion. You act like you're so open minded because you're open to all these changes being made on the flash show, but you're not open to someone having a different opinion than you....

I doubt you're nearly as big of a Flash comics fanatic as Kevin Smith is. Who are you to judge what is or isn't a valid criticism when you don't view the source material the same way he does?

 

[Kevin Smith]

There's a difference between criticisms that deserve to be respected and the **** the Kevin Smith is coming up with. He's literally looking at a few sentences in a casting announcement and saying "I don't like anything they're doing with this character!!!"

Criticism is fine. Nonsense, however, deserves what it gets.

No, I'm saying I don't like what those lines say about that character and the direction they say they're going based off that. It's a case by case decision.

 

[Kevin Smith]

I can't wait to see where these discussions go once the pilot is actually released.

I hope some people can accept that there are going to be criticisms of the show by then, I'm sure there will be a lot of them..

Why people get so defensive of a show that doesn't belong to them is really strange to me... be open to criticisms people! We're all fans here! We're the same. You don't have to defend every single criticism.... there are soooo many better discussions to be had, and it's way past the point of being annoying. People try to get intellectual in their arguments but they show a clear lack of understanding of what an opinion is.

It's nice to have extreme optimists around here, i like the buzz that it brings, but at the same time, those people think that anyone who isn't extremely optimistic about the project is a b****y pessimist. There is an in between. That's what I'd consider Kevin Smith, myself, and Human Torch to be. We don't blindly accept and praise every aspect of news, we like what we like, and dislike what we don't like. Doesn't make us *****es or pessimists.

 

[roach]

I doubt you're nearly as big of a Flash comics fanatic as Kevin Smith is. Who are you to judge what is or isn't a valid criticism when you don't view the source material the same way he does?

So only true fans would hate the changes?

 

[Rorschach2012]

So only true fans would hate the changes?

Someone who is a diehard fan of the comics naturally wouldn't want a live action adaptation to deviate from the source material. But there are exceptions.

 

[Rorschach2012]

Sometimes this place gets overly heated, so before we get too deep into this journey together, I'd like to say that I respect you guys. Even those I disagree with. We're all pretty damn similar. After all, that's why we're here, right?

 

[Kevin Smith]

So only true fans would hate the changes?

Wouldn't someone who likes 9/10 aspects of something instead of someone who likes 5/10 of something be considered the bigger fan?

 

[Kevin Smith]

Sometimes this place gets overly heated, so before we get too deep into this journey together, I'd like to say that I respect you guys. Even those I disagree with. We're all pretty damn similar. After all, that's why we're here, right?

Yeah I do have to agree with that at the end of the day, and I do respect all you guys personally, in spite of difference in opinions over fictitious characters.

We come from the farthest reaches of the world (literally) to discuss this stuff because we care so much.

(and because we have no lives, some of us? )

 

[Rorschach2012]

Yeah I do have to agree with that at the end of the day, and I do respect all you guys personally, in spite of difference in opinions over fictitious characters.

Lol that's what it comes down to eh?
That's hilarious and sad.
We're bickering over something soooooooo unbelievably trivial. It's hilarious to think about how much i deeply care for these characters....

Girlfriends in the past have known about my superhero obsession, but they just laugh it off and tell me it's cute... Really though... if they understood how far my obsession goes, it wouldn't be cute anymore

 

[Charlie Boy]

Someone who is a diehard fan of the comics naturally wouldn't want a live action adaptation to deviate from the source material. But there are exceptions.

But wouldn't a "diehard" fan realize that everything that worked in the comic medium wouldn't necessarily work for a network television channel geared toward a different demographic? Wouldn't a "diehard" fan be more open-minded to small tweaks here and there if it meant his or her favorite character would be reaching a wider audience?

I don't like the excuse that if someone supposedly cares more, that gives them license to come off as arrogant and belittling to other posters who are obviously also fans of the character.

We all have our favorite characters, but because they're our favorite doesn't mean we're only voice that matters on the subject in a thread of hundreds on a forum of thousands.

 

[Rorschach2012]

But wouldn't a "diehard" fan realize that everything that worked in the comic medium wouldn't necessarily work for a network television channel geared toward a different demographic? Wouldn't a "diehard" fan be more open-minded to small tweaks here and there if it meant his or her favorite character would be reaching a wider audience?

no.

die·hard
ˈdīˌhärd/
noun
noun: diehard; plural noun: diehards; noun: die-hard; plural noun: die-hards
1.
a person who strongly opposes change or who continues to support something in spite of opposition.

I don't like the excuse that if someone supposedly cares more, that gives them license to come off as arrogant and belittling to other posters who are obviously also fans of the character.

Whoa man... i think you're looking to hard into this. Die hard fans don't like change. That's the bottom line. I don't think (well i hope anyways) that anyone is trying to put other people down. Things are getting too heated around here, i think we all need to take a chill pill.

If these discussions about a fictional character are having any negative emotional impact on anyone, that person needs to reevaluate their life. This is not the place where anyone should be put down or feel bad. This should be a positive place where people can discuss their opinions civilly without getting their feelings hurt. Man... i sound like a teacher or something... gross

We all have our favorite characters, but because they're our favorite doesn't mean we're only voice that matters on the subject in a thread of hundreds on a forum of thousands.

And I don't think any of us think that our voice is the only one that matters? I don't think my voice or opinion "matters" at all. I don't have an inflated sense of self importance, but I do have... opinions. Just because mine may not match yours, doesn't mean i think mine is more important than yours or anyone elses. Like i said before, I respect all you guys, and accept that you have different opinions from me.

 

[Charlie Boy]

No.

die·hard
ˈdīˌhärd/
noun
noun: diehard; plural noun: diehards; noun: die-hard; plural noun: die-hards
1.
a person who strongly opposes change or who continues to support something in spite of opposition.

Hm, alright.

And I don't think any of us think that our voice is the only one that matters? I don't think my voice or opinion "matters" at all. I don't have an inflated sense of self importance

You're a part of a select few

At the end of the day, this show is about comic book characters. Characters who are changed back and forth, depending on who's writing them that week. Personality traits, marriages, deaths, relationships, sexual orientations and ethnicities get retconned and rebooted all the time. These characters change and evolve with the times. If this isn't the character you grew up reading, keep reading those dusty outdated issues you're so fond of. The rest of us will enjoy the new take on Iris, Barry, Killer Frost, Vibe, Det. West, and Thawne.

 

[Rorschach2012]

Hm, alright.


You're a part of a select few

At the end of the day, this show is about comic book characters. Characters who are changed back and forth, depending on who's writing them that week. Personality traits, marriages, deaths, relationships, sexual orientations and ethnicities get retconned and rebooted all the time. These characters change and evolve with the times. If this isn't the character you grew up reading, keep reading those dusty outdated issues you're so fond of. The rest of us will enjoy the new take on Iris, Barry, Killer Frost, Vibe, Det. West, and Thawne.

I'll be one of those people! I'm open man. I think i confused you. I wasn't saying i'm a diehard fan. I can deal with changes. I personally have no problem with Iris being a psychologist, as I was never really that crazy about her character in the comics (nothing against her. the only comic love interests i really like are Lois, Talia and Catwoman) I was trying to explain how diehard fans think, because I can really relate to and understand that mindset. I love the Flash of the comics, but I can't wait to see this new take, even if it's not exactly the way I'm used to Flash being. That's just something that comes with adapting a comic book.

Arrow made some major changes too and i didn't have a problem with those either. My only problem with Arrow is some of the costumes don't look as great as they could...still though, i deal with it and watch the show every week.

 

[Charlie Boy]

That's the bottom line. I don't think (well i hope anyways) that anyone is trying to put other people down.

I'd like to believe people aren't... But there's always some type of pissing contest going on around these boards where people feel the need to outsmart or out type someone else. Especially when it comes to casting threads, or movies/television shows in development.

Things are getting too heated around here, i think we all need to take a chill pill.


If these discussions about a fictional character are having any negative emotional impact on anyone, that person needs to reevaluate their life. This is not the place where anyone should be put down or feel bad. This should be a positive place where people can discuss their opinions civilly without getting their feelings hurt. Man... i sound like a teacher or something... gross

And I don't think any of us think that our voice is the only one that matters? I don't think my voice or opinion "matters" at all. I don't have an inflated sense of self importance, but I do have... opinions. Just because mine may not match yours, doesn't mean i think mine is more important than yours or anyone elses. Like i said before, I respect all you guys, and accept that you have different opinions from me.

I completely agree

 

[Rorschach2012]

I'd like to believe people aren't... But there's always some type of pissing contest going on around these boards where people feel the need to outsmart or out type someone else. Especially when it comes to casting threads, or movies/television shows in development.

I know dude. I'll admit I've been one of those guys in the past before. But i realize it's stupid, you just get caught up in the moment when you have strong opinions on something you're passionate about.

 

[Human Torch]

I can't wait to see where these discussions go once the pilot is actually released.

I hope some people can accept that there are going to be criticisms of the show by then, I'm sure there will be a lot of them..

Why people get so defensive of a show that doesn't belong to them is really strange to me... be open to criticisms people! We're all fans here! We're the same. You don't have to defend every single criticism.... there are soooo many better discussions to be had, and it's way past the point of being annoying. People try to get intellectual in their arguments but they show a clear lack of understanding of what an opinion is.

It's nice to have extreme optimists around here, i like the buzz that it brings, but at the same time, those people think that anyone who isn't extremely optimistic about the project is a b****y pessimist. There is an in between. That's what I'd consider Kevin Smith, myself, and Human Torch to be. We don't blindly accept and praise every aspect of news, we like what we like, and dislike what we don't like. Doesn't make us *****es or pessimists.

I consider myself "the loyal opposition."t:

I'll still watch the stuff regardless of bad casting/character changing,but I reserve the right to bellyache about it as I see fit!

 

[Human Torch]

And I think we have a different understanding of necessary changes. For Batman Begins, Bruce needed a deep connection with the villain so that he could forge a different path. That pretty much meant Ra's needed to be the one to train him. With just the comics origin, where there is no importance placed on his training other than that it worked incredibly well, Batman Begins, as a story, sucks. It was a necessary change for the story they were telling.

That alone is one reason why I basically can't take your opinions seriously.

 

[Boy Scout]

I can't wait to see where these discussions go once the pilot is actually released.

I expect it'll be a mixed bag, as most are.

I hope some people can accept that there are going to be criticisms of the show by then, I'm sure there will be a lot of them..

I don't think anyone here has a problem with legitimate criticism. Emphasis on "legitimate".

People try to get intellectual in their arguments but they show a clear lack of understanding of what an opinion is.

We all know what an opinion is. We also know that the logic used to form an opinion can be (and has been) called into question.

...those people think that anyone who isn't extremely optimistic about the project is a b****y pessimist.

Hey, if the boot fits....

On a more serious note, I think coming to any definite conclusions about Iris at this stage in the game is beyond foolish. We know very little about her and have yet to see her do anything or interact with anyone. What's hard to understand about that?

...but you're not open to someone having a different opinion than you....

That's not the issue.

I doubt you're nearly as big of a Flash comics fanatic as Kevin Smith is. Who are you to judge what is or isn't a valid criticism when you don't view the source material the same way he does?

Really? Being a "bigger fan" of the source material (really) does not make someone's opinion more valid (or logically sound) than anybody else's.

 

[Orb]

i just want a fun tv show.......

 

[Rorschach2012]

I expect it'll be a mixed bag, as most are.
Yep!

I don't think anyone here has a problem with legitimate criticism. Emphasis on "legitimate".
I'm guessing this stems from the people's complaints about Iris? Just because you can accept the changes, doesn't mean your opinion is more legitimate than theirs.

We all know what an opinion is. We also know that the logic used to form an opinion can be (and has been) called into question.
Once again. That's your opinion. What you think is logical may be completely illogical to someone else. It's relative duuuuuuuuuuude.

Hey, if the boot fits....

On a more serious note, I think coming to any definite conclusions about Iris at this stage in the game is beyond foolish. We know very little about her and have yet to see her do anything or interact with anyone. What's hard to understand about that?
I personally have no problem with Iris' characterization. But you clearly have no idea what a diehard fan is. I defined it in this thread previously, but it's someone who vehemently opposes change, despite opposition. If someone thinks the source material is perfect the way it is, naturally they'll be disappointed when changes are made in live action. Not everyone has to like Iris' new characterization. The few sentences we know about her have been brief yes, but they also reveal that some changes have been made from the comics. Once again... a "diehard" fan would want a live action adaptation to be as identical to the comics as possible. You can't deny this. Look up the definition of diehard if you don't believe me. Is it illogical to be a diehard fan? I don't think so. People like what they like, do you really have nothing better to do than criticize people for wanting the show to be as close to the comics as possible? This is the SHH, I thought that this would be a place that would be accepting of diehard fans...wth is this place? This is a community of comic book fans, yet we condemn the people that oppose changes from comics to live action.

That's not the issue.
It really is though! You, along with other people really can't accept other people's opinions. This post of yours clearly demonstrates this.

Really? Being a "bigger fan" of the source material (really) does not make someone's opinion more valid (or logically sound) than anybody else's.
Please reread all my recent posts in this thread. You either have comprehension issues, or you didn't read my response earlier when someone wrongly tried to suggest this is what I was saying.

 

[Capt. Marvelous]

I don't really care that much about them turning Iris and the Wests Black in this, since we're bound to get another Iris on the big screen one day.


Though, honestly... I would have preferred Roy Harper has the one they turned Black on Arrow. It would have made sense in the context of the socio-economic issues present with his character and how he's been marginalized by the system.

Colton Haynes just isn't convincing as a guy from a "kill or be killed" neighbourhood. It's almost laughable. He's like Vanilla Ice.

 

[Rorschach2012]

I don't really care that much about them turning Iris and the Wests Black in this, since we're bound to get another Iris on the big screen one day.


Though, honestly... I would have preferred Roy Harper has the one they turned Black on Arrow. It would have made sense in the context of the socio-economic issues present with his character and how he's been marginalized by the system.

Colton Haynes just isn't convincing as a guy from a "kill or be killed" neighbourhood. It's almost laughable. He's like Vanilla Ice.

lol yeah i get what you're saying. He doesn't look like a rough guy, that's why they call him "abercrombie". But the way he plays the role is convincing

 

[DrCosmic]

That alone is one reason why I basically can't take your opinions seriously.

Because you take them out of context, I know. Batman Begins would have been a much poorer film if the first time he had met Ra's had been on the train, or if they had been enemies from the beginning.

Now you guys are just talking in circles. So... KS, you're being annoying. There's no getting around it. Cosmic, it's not your job to save him from that path. There. Done.

Now shake hands and walk away.

Advice taken.

I give logic, I get gifs. Man.

We don't blindly accept and praise every aspect of news, we like what we like, and dislike what we don't like. Doesn't make us *****es or pessimists.

Here's why I'm not convinced you respect me. I see the changes, and I see the potential in them to make Flash, as a story, even better, especially for television and a broader audience. There is nothing blind about it, it's highly disrespectful and judgmental to characterize it as so.

And, imho, being a diehard fan has the same effect of being a pessimist, because as things change, and they will change, the diehard fan who by definition supports something in spite of the opposition, no matter how logical or necessary or overdue that opposition is. So every change is bad. That is precisely pessimism. But even then, I question if someone is truly diehard if they support other changes, but all of a sudden on these, it's out of the question. Were they equally railing against lawyer ex non-super Laurel? Did the existence of Thea Queen and Ollie living at home make them livid as well? If not... I'm not convinced that the issue is diehardness.

What you think is logical may be completely illogical to someone else. It's relative duuuuuuuuuuude.

If logic is relative.... what are we talking about? What if I say your definition of diehard is illogical? It's all relative right? I can even support it with some BS rhetoric: Dictionaries change all the time, diehard fans don't have a problem when the panels change, so they don't have a problem with change, really.

 

[Capt. Marvelous]

lol yeah i get what you're saying. He doesn't look like a rough guy, that's why they call him "abercrombie". But the way he plays the role is convincing

After watching "Boyz n the Hood" and "Menace II Society," I definitely would have preferred a more convincing take on a socially-marginalized Roy Harper forced into gang life.

The socio-economic divide on Arrow between the wealthy and the very poor was something I was hoping would be given far more development and attention. There's some great political commentary to be addressed there, but I guess it wouldn't suit a CW series.

 

[Charlie Boy]

This is the CW. If you want a realistic take on youths growing up in an area where they feel they have no other choice to survive but to take to a life of crime, watch The Wire.