The Bond 23 Thread

[Metallo]

I would say anyone who did More than one bond, besides connery, had a disappointing follow up after their first movie.

And I would say that the bond movies haven't really set any trends since....thunderball. The 60's were the most relevant Bond was to pop culture. Now he's just an institution thats always around, barring a few breaks here and there.

I would agree with that. OHMSS was really the last movie where Bond seemed to be a leader instead of a follower. DAF and LALD seem to follow in the footsteps of its fellow 70's films. LALD really has a blaxploitation vibe. I swear somebody calls Bond a "honky" in that movie. I still enjoy the movie though.

QoS lacked a satisfying death for Greene.

Yeah we don't even see him get whats coming to him in the end. Builds the menace of Quantum but otherwise it was disappointing not to see him die in a fitting fashion for all the dirty stuff he had a hand in.

This is probably an unpopular opinion, but I preffer Licence to Kill (the follow up) to The Living Daylights (debut film), I like both Dalton movies thou.

I enjoy them both. On one hand LTK is one of those movies that is following trends (Miami Vince and then Die Hard, Rambo, and the Schwarzenegger films of the time had upped he anti when it came to action and violence) but on the other hand I've gotten to a point where I like to see the formula shaken up a little bit. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. I do like that the film is made to suit Dalton though.

I agree with you. I didn't care for TLD, but thought LTK was one of the better ones, just missing out on my top ten Bond films.

I like them both. Both have their strengths and weaknesses. TLD is more of a classic Bond film but I enjoy that darker edge LTK has. There's some good stunt work in both and God bless Roger Moore but by that point Dalton looked more convincing doing that stuff. It was nice that he could rely a bit less on stuntmen and doubles.

LTK was tailor made for his version of Bond.

The Living Daylights felt like he wandered in to the set of a Roger Moore movie. Makes sense, as it was written for Moore.

Goldeneye was supposedly written with Dalton in mind, explains why it is darker than the rest of Brosnan's outings.

Exactly.

I was disappointed Dalton didn't do more. I remember when he stepped down in 94. I hated to see him go after only 2 but Brosnan did a fine job.

You really can see touches of Moores Bond written into TLD. Thank goodness they cut that absurd "magic carpet ride" bit. it was hard to take Moore doing that seriously but Dalton would have looked foolish.

The only problem ever had with Dalton was he seemed to struggle sometimes when given the humor to do. The one liners and stuff like that. He always seemed more at home in dramatic Bond moments. It was refreshing to see that seriousness injected back into the character since he IS a spy but I did miss Moore's charm and easy charisma. All the Bond actors have had their strengths; something that specifically worked for them that I'm not sure the others could do or pull off

with Dalton it was nice to see the character take a step to being more of a human being instead of an "image" of cool, charm, and confidence. Dalton still gave the character a sort of impenetrable emotional wall like most of the other actors but since Casino Royale was a reboot Craig got to play Bond as an honest to goodness more emotionally open, flawed and learning human being. I like all the takes on Bond but it was refreshing to see Craig take that next character step from what Dalton was trying to do.

 

[Metallo]

^ Exactly. It's sad with Brosnan because he wanted the darker movies. The tone of Casino Royale was the tone that Brosnan wanted in his movies but never got, with the closest being Goldeneye.

Yeah its one thing that really annoyed me with Eon during Brosnans tenure. Its clear he wanted to take some risks with the character but Barbara Broccoli and Batman junior wanted to make the films more formulaic and more like generic action films. They didn't want to rock the boat. I can understand that but after a while I think Brosnan had proven himself enough to be allowed to stretch in the role.

What really sucks is they finally DO shake things up but its after Brosnan is gone. A shame they couldn't have given him a fifth film in 04 to let him take a risk in his last outing. He was aging out of the role but still looked good enough for one more go.

Then again maybe the 4 year gap helped them focus on what direction they wanted to go in and helped build some anticipation for that new director and new actor

 

[The Batman]

I would agree with that. OHMSS was really the last movie where Bond seemed to be a leader instead of a follower. DAF and LALD seem to follow in the footsteps of its fellow 70's films. LALD really has a blaxploitation vibe. I swear somebody calls Bond a "honky" in that movie. I still enjoy the movie though.

Agreed. That movie also gave us one of the best bond theme songs.

Yeah we don't even see him get whats coming to him in the end. Builds the menace of Quantum but otherwise it was disappointing not to see him die in a fitting fashion for all the dirty stuff he had a hand in.

Exactly. In fact, thinking about it, both of craigs villains are just easily disposed of by quantum. To be honest, in le chiffre's case, i kinda felt bad for him for some reason, lol.

 

[The Batman]

Yeah its one thing that really annoyed me with Eon during Brosnans tenure. Its clear he wanted to take some risks with the character but Barbara Broccoli and Batman junior wanted to make the films more formulaic and more like generic action films. They didn't want to rock the boat. I can understand that but after a while I think Bronan had proven himself enough to be allowed to stretch in the role.

What really sucks is they finally DO shake things up but its after Brosnan is gone. A shame they couldn't have given him a fifth tilm in 04 to let him take a risk in his last outing. He was aging out of the role but still looked good enough for one more go.

Then again maybe the 4 year gap helped them focus on what direction they wanted to go in and helped build some anticipation for that new director and new actor

Yup. The sad thing is that Brosnan REALLY wanted to do Casino Royale, with Tarantino. Then, they fire him and do CR.

 

[Metallo]

Exactly. In fact, thinking about it, both of craigs villains are just easily disposed of by quantum. To be honest, in le chiffre's case, i kinda felt bad for him for some reason, lol.

Le Chiffre's an odd character. Just think of the great cinema icons that played him before Mads Mikkelsen in the 06 Casino Royale and yet he's never really talked about as one of Bond's great foes. Understandable since those productions were both seen as forgettable by many but its ironic when the character attracts that kind of talent. The character has never really been taken to the limit.

While I enjoyed Mikkelsen in the 06 CR I think he could have been handled a little better. Fine actor in the part I think the role just needed to be punched up a little. The character never has really reached his full potential on screen.

I know what you mean about feeling sorry for him. You could sense his desperation through the movie and by the end when he ran out of time his fate really left an impression. He and Bond were trying to pressure each other with the grim reality of their situations to see who would crack first. Just a matter of time to see which one ran out of time first. I though that was well handled.

Green was pretty forgettable. Hardly registered with me.

For Bond 23 Craig really needs a formidable foe. Not necessarily physically but someone who has a lot of presence.

Yup. The sad thing is that Brosnan REALLY wanted to do Casino Royale, with Tarantino. Then, they fire him and do CR.

I think that could have been pretty cool even though i love the movie we got.

I think we all know who Broccoli and Wilson didn't let that happen. They hire directors but its really their vision they want carried out. The want talented competent directors; guns for hire in many cases.

They'd never let a Tarantino or Spielberg take on Bond even if they were willing because directors with that kind of popular reputation would overshadow them or want to much creative freedom.

 

[The Batman]

I think Le Chiffre wouldve been memorable if CR were made in the 60's. Imagine ORson Wells in a serious, EON bond going up against Connery?

Sometimes I imagine the different versions of CR we couldve gotten. For example, I woulda liked to have seen what Brosnan and Tarantino couldve done. I also think CR wouldve been great as a prequel to Dr.No.

I feel the micromanaging by the producers is one of the things holding this franchise back. I'm surprised they even hired Sam Mendes for this flick, to be honest.

 

[Metallo]

I think Le Chiffre wouldve been memorable if CR were made in the 60's. Imagine ORson Wells in a serious, EON bond going up against Connery?

Sometimes I imagine the different versions of CR we couldve gotten. For example, I woulda liked to have seen what Brosnan and Tarantino couldn't done. I also think CR wouldve been great as a prequel to Dr.No.

Yeah if they had been able to do it first it really could have been something. Orson Wells was a fan so it could have happened. I was watching one of those youtube videos I posted earlier and Terence Young said Wells complimented him on Dr No saying it had "changed the cinematic language" or something like that and that soon people in the film industry would be copying the hell out of Eons Bond films. And thats exactly what happened.

I feel the micromanaging by the producers is one of the things holding this franchise back. I'm surprised they even hired Sam Mendes for this flick, to be honest.

I agree. I feel like Broccoli and Wilson made some REALLY poor choices on Quantum of Solace.

I was equally surprised when they hired Sam Mendes but I'm glad he's waited it out and stuck with the film. Mendes is a guy who has had some success and recognition before Bond and his a quality dramatic director. Not like some of the guys they have hied who didn't have much clout or respect. Hopefully they let him do what he was because if they do we've got a chance to see a great Bond film.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

I like them both. Both have their strengths and weaknesses. TLD is more of a classic Bond film but I enjoy that darker edge LTK has. There's some good stunt work in both and God bless Roger Moore but by that point Dalton looked more convincing doing that stuff. It was nice that he could rely a bit less on stuntmen and doubles.

It really a combination of things that drag TLD down in my view. I do like the plot, but the villains (other than Necros) are weak, as is the main Bond girl. It has a poor Leiter. The new Moneypenny is lousy. The humour is extremely dated, even moreso than usual. The Afghan sequence in general didn't work aside from the fight on the cargo net. And Dalton didn't look comfortable at all with the more comedic aspects (such as the Cello Case Toboggan sequence). TLD is certainly better than the worst in the series (DAF, TMWTGG, AVTAK, etc.), but there are too many weak points for me to love it.

Most of the problems were done away with by LTK. In particular, we go from arguably the weakest villains in the series to one of the best in Sanchez. It was darker and fit Dalton better, and it is one of the few films were I was emotionally involved in Bond's mission. It wasn't just another job, it was personal. Also, I loved that Q got to have a bigger role. LTK is really Q's finest moment.

 

[Mrs. Sawyer]

Agreed. That movie also gave us one of the best bond theme songs.

Hell yeah! That theme owns, and the remix too.

[YT]BRJnK-uWbfQ[/YT]

[YT]zN8GcRGNWe4[/YT]

 

[Octoberist]

QoS had some cool ideas but everything that got introduced got brushed off fast. Nothing was really explored and just touched on things instead of developing anything. (Quantum, Felix's limited role, Mathis' death)

 

[Metallo]

It really a combination of things that drag TLD down in my view. I do like the plot, but the villains (other than Necros) are weak, as is the main Bond girl. It has a poor Leiter. The new Moneypenny is lousy. The humour is extremely dated, even moreso than usual. The Afghan sequence in general didn't work aside from the fight on the cargo net. And Dalton didn't look comfortable at all with the more comedic aspects (such as the Cello Case Toboggan sequence). TLD is certainly better than the worst in the series (DAF, TMWTGG, AVTAK, etc.), but there are too many weak points for me to love it.

Most of the problems were done away with by LTK. In particular, we go from arguably the weakest villains in the series to one of the best in Sanchez. It was darker and fit Dalton better, and it is one of the few films were I was emotionally involved in Bond's mission. It wasn't just another job, it was personal. Also, I loved that Q got to have a bigger role. LTK is really Q's finest moment.

I always enjoy when Q can get out in the field. I like LTK because its a film more suited to Dalton. Like I said I always felt the comedy was one of his weaknesses and thats minimized further in LTK and I'm at a point where I'm interested when the formula is broken up some. It one reason I was looking forward too DAD but then I saw the movie and it turned out to be one of their laziest most uncreative efforts ever.

I think that in TLD Kara is supposed to be a softer more respectable female lead than some Bond girls in the past who were little more than air headed eye candy (The Bond films go back and forth on that). But I like that she's not so dim or easily swooned by Bond. She's not really a tough Bond girl either. As far as Bond girls go I think Pam in LTK was probably Daltons best.

 

[Metallo]

QoS had some cool ideas but everything that got introduced got brushed off fast. Nothing was really explored and just touched on things instead of developing anything. (Quantum, Felix's limited role, Mathis' death)

yeah that was SOOO abbreviated. I think Mathis needed more time in the movie. Like you said nothing felt fleshed out. Everything was moving so fast with little substance.

I almost felt like I was supposed to laugh when Bond dropped Mathis in the dumpster. I'm sure i wasn't supposed to have that reaction.

 

[Octoberist]

yeah that was SOOO abbreviated I thing Maths needed more time in the movie. Like you said nothing felt fleshed out. Everything was moving so fast with little substance.

I almost felt like I was supposed to laugh when Bond dropped Mathis in the dumpster. I'm sure i wasn't supposed to have that reaction.

I was thinking 'really'?

Also, Elvis was just..stupid. Thy could had fun with his character but instead he was just..stupid and under-developed.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

yeah that was SOOO abbreviated I thing Maths needed more time in the movie. Like you said nothing felt fleshed out. Everything was moving so fast with little substance.

I almost felt like I was supposed to laugh when Bond dropped Mathis in the dumpster. I'm sure i wasn't supposed to have that reaction.

I know how you feel. Because of all of this, I had a really hard job caring about anything that happened. Actually the whole movie seems inconsequential. For being the first direct sequel in the series, nothing happens. At the end of the movie everything is pretty much exactly the same as it was at the end of Casino Royale. You could wipe QoS from existence and nothing would change. Of all the Bond films it is not the worst, but is possibly the most forgettable.

 

[The Batman]

i thought killing mathis was a bad idea in general, done more for shock value than good storytelling.

 

[Octoberist]

to me, QoS was much better than the later Bronsan movies but it's still a step back. It felt like it was aping whatever was trendy at the time (Bourne) and it didn't feel as fresh or compelling as Casino Royale.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

i thought killing mathis was a bad idea in general, done more for shock value than good storytelling.

It was pointless too since he was already out of the picture by the end of Casino Royale. There was no point in even bringing him back if they were just going to kill him within a few minutes.

They did something similar with Zukovsky in The World is Not Enough, but it was handled much better in that one.

 

[Octoberist]

That was kinda dumb!

 

[Hunter Rider]

It's a shame about DAF because if Lazenby stayed, they would have done a gritty follow-up to that.

And EON would do that several times with the Bond series. Octopussy I felt was a trend to cash-in on the success of the Indiana Jones movies. DAD was an attempt to cash-in on the CGI craziness of the beginning of the 2000s, and QoS was an attempt to cash-in on the Bourne movies.

EON needs to set trends, not fall victim to it.

I'd say that is pretty accurate, although only part of Octopussy feels like it has an Indy influence. Was Moonraker written before Stars and such became popular?

There's no doubt Craig's Bond has been influenced by Bourne but also Bauer IMO.

He doesn't like doing sequels. It was the same reason why there were 8 years between Zorro movies.

Given his middling output maybe he should rethink things.

After Green Lantern he might be more open to doing more

He's a good director but after the silly Legend of Zorro and the mediocre Green Lantern I really think he's only as good as his script and in more realistic films.

Mask of Zorro had its share of laughs but it also felt more organic. Legend of Zorro was really REALLY corny. To the point of being forced.

I'd welcome Campbell becoming more of a regular Bond director like Gilbert, Young, and Hamilton. Personally I think Campbells Bond movie track record may already be better than Guy Hamilton's even though Hamilton made more films. Both Campbells movies were good but DAF was so weak.

I wonder if another reason he's shied away is the length of production on the films in comparison to the older ones. He is certainly more at home in the genre as I think Edge of Darkness confirmed.

I love the depiction of SPECTRE in that movie. Blofeld isn't even seen yet and he still has an air of menace.

Agreed, it creates a great sense of mystigue and intrigue around SPECTRE.

I could see that working in Craigs Bond movies because its something I could see being done by the villains in Craigs movies. To have a president to help manipulate the global financial market to their advantage in any way he can or work with enemy nations or terror groups. I think it would have been too low key and cerebral for the Connery era but now? I'd be game for something like that. Interesting that the original Manchurian Candidate came out the same year as Dr No. John Frankenheimer directing a Bond film...hmmm.

Yeah, while Connery's movies were never as outlandish as Moore's, he stuck within the framework of espionage and the whole cloak & dagger approach, but now may be the time where Bond could have a politically based storyline.

I see it as the producers trying to bring things back down to earth (literally) after Moonraker, changing with the times (its the 80's by this point), and its a movie more suited to John Glens talents. When I look at Glens Bond movies they all seem far more serious and less fantastical than Moores 70's Bond outings.

It was certainly a complete 180 and produced Moore's second best Bond movie and Glen's best IMO It still had the Moore humour like the Bibi stuff, but both the espionage story and Melina Havlock story were much closer to a spy thriller than his other outings.

You're right about Moore though. His 7 movies really went from one extreme to another. I know Moore didn't care for violence and preferred it a little more tongue in cheek but TSWLM was him at his best and he was really good in more series Bond films. He arguably had better natural comedic timing than any other Bond actor so I don't fault them for playing to his strengths. Connery's humor was darker.

He was certainly the most comfortable with the humour as it fit with his style. He was also the one Bond to suffer the most from blatant attempts to copy current popular movies.

"Mr Bond...we can make a deal! I'll buy you a delicatessen...in stainless steel!"

Beyond the jokes that really was Brocolli/Eon telling Kevin McClory FU wasn't it?

It's amazing how long that squabble went on for.

For Bond 23 Craig really needs a formidable foe. Not necessarily physically but someone who has a lot of presence.

If the casting of Javier Bardem turns out right then we may have just that.

 

[Visceral]

No I disagree with all of this. QoS was the most subtle Bond film showing the destruction of what little soul Bond had left. The loss of humanity is mirrored in the Tosca scene. Camilles is a slightly evolved Vesper, as Bond loses his humanity it seems that the women in his life seem to as well. Vesper was traumatized by killing and ended up dying. Camilles is traumatized as well but she kills the villains that threaten her showing that innocence has no place in Bonds world/prison.

I will agree that Greene wasn't a strong villain, but everyone says that QoS has less heart than Casino because that is the nature of the story and character in this film. Bond is becoming a soulless killing machine.

 

[Visceral]

It was pointless too since he was already out of the picture by the end of Casino Royale. There was no point in even bringing him back if they were just going to kill him within a few minutes.

They did something similar with Zukovsky in The World is Not Enough, but it was handled much better in that one.

To have Bond confide in someone he does not trust shows his state of mind. Think about how Bond went on a personal vendetta to find the people who killed the person he loved only to find that they might be in league with the people he worked with. Bond had to go to some who he thought might have double allegiances.

Mathis is a very human character, asking bond forgive himself, even though he knows Bond still doesn't fully trust him. Bond throws his body in a dumpster showing a complete lack of human emotion.

Look at this scene and tell me that QoS is as bad as they say it is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sT6PRT_XHRA
[YT]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sT6PRT_XHRA[/YT]

 

[Metallo]

One of the few good things I can say about QoS is Bond's emotional journey as far as forgiving Vesper. Other than that it just doesn't work on every level as well as CR did. Really uneven second part compared to the first.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

I don't think there is enough mileage in "Bond forgives Vesper and moves on" arc to justify a full feature film. I can easily see Bond getting over Vesper between the time of her death and him finding Mr White.

 

[Metallo]

Well I never said there was. Just that it was one thing I thought the movie made sure to keep at the forefront and tie up.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

if they ditch Quantum for Bond 23, it would be like QoS never happened. An alternate universe Satan dreamt up.