BvS The BvS Rumor/Speculation Discussion Thread! - Part 4

[FeedOnATreeFrog]

I am guessing you don't watch a lot of Star Trek brother.

Do the Abrams movies count...?

Anyways, regarding the prime directive, that's sort of what Jon Kent was all about in MOS, but since Zod let the cat out of the bag, wouldn't Earth no longer be considered 'pre-warp'? AKA that ship has sailed? Earth's now aware that there are other worlds out there, hostile worlds. Not sure it'd be a good idea for Superman to get in the way of learning more about them.

Also, to get rid of the technology would also mean Superman leaving the Earth since his body, like Zod's, is another source of knowledge and power.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Do the Abrams movies count...?

Anyways, with the prime directive, wouldn't that include Superman himself?

It would, but usually Superman is very Libertarian in his approach. See, this is part of my view on the tech. It's not that different than the K-tech issue. Superman, when it comes to world politics, keeps out of it. He doesn't pick winners and losers, no matter how a situation in any particular country offends him. To him, there is in fact a higher ideal than just saving lives. If he didn't think that he wouldn't be letting all these people around the world die every day at the hands of corrupt and evil regimes. He doesn't stop all that killing, raping and torture because he can't set himself up as the ultimate arbiter of things that were part of humankind from the start. He would essentially taking away freedom and setting himself up as king. It's why QUEST FOR PEACE doesn't work. Mankind created nuclear weapons and Mankind needs to sort that out.

But when it comes to things that are out of the ordinary, when it's meta human or extraterrestrial, then it falls into his lap. Let's put it this way... An Earthquake happens in Iran, he sticks around to help the wounded as much as he can, but he isn't staying to overthrow the government, even if in the long run the government is a bigger problem for the people of Iran than the Earthquake was. Frankly, I think that beyond even mere crime fighting, that's what Superman wants to spend his time doing. Helping when accidents and disasters strike as to be a symbol of what we all should do everyday. It's just all these freaks, monsters and super villains keep popping up. t:

I think you are failing to see that moral ideals are fine but putting them into action is not always clear. You take the advantages that the K-tech would bring as a given and lowball the possible/inevitable fallout. I think that Superman is, like it or not, an agent of the status quo, who, lets remember would have a personal stake and emotions attached to these particular circumstances. Sorry, but I just don't feel there is a lot of legitimacy to the idea that he would allow that paradigm shifting tech to just be studied and used willy nilly without considering the negative consequences. As for his body... Uh, he could make arrangements of fail safes or what have you, but frankly that feels like you are splitting hairs here for the sake of it.

 

[FeedOnATreeFrog]

But when it comes to things that are out of the ordinary, when it's meta human or extraterrestrial, then it falls into his lap.

But when Earth was attacked by aliens, this became Earth's problem as much as Superman's.

Superman may be a champion of the status quo, but the status quo has changed. Earth now knows that there's hostile alien life out there that can reach us, that there's technology to study on Earth, etc. Superman not allowing Earth to research more into that would just be getting in the way of Earth trying to deal with its new circumstances.

 

[dhandler01]

Superman letting the government "control" the scout ship makes more sense than your duplicate Superman theory did So there is a fake Superman running around...why isnt the real Superman doing something to stop him? And the deus ex machina that the "Despot Supes" is atually a dupe would have been pretty weak. I mean it is cool as a fancast type thing, but it takes all the weight out of the idea for the general audience. The whole point is to let us (through the eyes of whoever is having he vision) see what could happen if the two alphas dont get their crap together. Reading comic where that happens we will smile and think it is cool...but the average rube will go...huh?

As for the ship, im guessing it is more than just Superman leaving it for the government. He leaves it there for a reason.

And the Prime Directive was always stupid, and was always a "get out of jail free card" for Star Trek writers to keep the characters from acting as humans actually would. Notice the Vulcans didnt use the Prime Directive as an excuse to not make First Contact when humans showed warp technology. Zod came to Earth, the cat is out of the bag. People were killed, there is no more Prime Directive. It is Superman's job to protect them and help them reach new heights without making the mistakes Krypton did.

 

[rogbngp]

Do the Abrams movies count...?

Anyways, regarding the prime directive, that's sort of what Jon Kent was all about in MOS, but since Zod let the cat out of the bag, wouldn't Earth no longer be considered 'pre-warp'? AKA that ship has sailed? Earth's now aware that there are other worlds out there, hostile worlds. Not sure it'd be a good idea for Superman to get in the way of learning more about them.

Also, to get rid of the technology would also mean Superman leaving the Earth since his body, like Zod's, is another source of knowledge and power.

It would, but usually Superman is very Libertarian in his approach. See, this is part of my view on the tech. It's not that different than the K-tech issue. Superman, when it comes to world politics, keeps out of it. He doesn't pick winners and losers, no matter how a situation in any particular country offends him. To him, there is in fact a higher ideal than just saving lives. If he didn't think that he wouldn't be letting all these people around the world die every day at the hands of corrupt and evil regimes. He doesn't stop all that killing, raping and torture because he can't set himself up as the ultimate arbiter of things that were part of humankind from the start. He would essentially taking away freedom and setting himself up as king. It's why QUEST FOR PEACE doesn't work. Mankind created nuclear weapons and Mankind needs to sort that out.

But when it comes to things that are out of the ordinary, when it's meta human or extraterrestrial, then it falls into his lap. Let's put it this way... An Earthquake happens in Iran, he sticks around to help the wounded as much as he can, but he isn't staying to overthrow the government, even if in the long run the government is a bigger problem for the people of Iran than the Earthquake was. Frankly, I think that beyond even mere crime fighting, that's what Superman wants to spend his time doing. Helping when accidents and disasters strike as to be a symbol of what we all should do everyday. It's just all these freaks, monsters and super villains keep popping up. t:

I think you are failing to see that moral ideals are fine but putting them into action is not always clear. You take the advantages that the K-tech would bring as a given and lowball the possible/inevitable fallout. I think that Superman is, like it or not, an agent of the status quo, who, lets remember would have a personal stake and emotions attached to these particular circumstances. Sorry, but I just don't feel there is a lot of legitimacy to the idea that he would allow that paradigm shifting tech to just be studied and used willy nilly without considering the negative consequences. As for his body... Uh, he could make arrangements of fail safes or what have you, but frankly that feels like you are splitting hairs here for the sake of it.

The ethical dilemma for Superman posed by whether to keep K-tech out of the military's hands does underscore the worries that Jonathan Kent expressed to Clark about really needing to be ready for his role as Superman. I actually kind of like that it echoes back onto Jonathan's hand-wringing about this. If Superman screws up here by rationalizing that he should "not interfere" it could actually be a valuable lesson in the character's personal development. Because the results will be a Very Bad Thing. Whatever the intellectual rationale is for Superman not taking the ship for himself, in fact no way should the government be trusted with it. That will be painfully evident from the outcome we'll see played out in this film: the government allows Lex to reverse-engineer it, and the deeply disturbed megalomaniac creates Doomsday with it.

I mean, I was just assuming that Superman would take possession of the ship and make it his FoS. It didn't even occur to me that he would struggle with the ethics of whether to interfere with humans gaining access to K-tech. It just seemed like a no-brainer to me.

But as a tie-in back onto Jonathan's worries, and by way of imagining what these superheroes might be like in the real world, it does sort of work. (That he foolishly leaves the scout ship undisturbed.)

 

[rogbngp]

I suspect all the tech is taken care of and unbeknownst to anyone, Lex has stolen it back. I suspect Zod's body for example was at the bottom of the ocean. I think it's what's being recovered in that underwater scene. Such a thing could also give AM a small role.

Superman killed Zod on land (remember the neck snap scene?). So I don't think Zod would somehow end up at the bottom of the ocean.

But maybe that mysterious blob is something related to Doomsday? Didn't someone on these boards mention a theory that the World Engine might have somehow spawned a Doomsday.. um, proto-substance? or something along those lines? I'm not familiar with Doomsday tbh, and have been relying just on various wikis to learn about him.

 

[rogbngp]

The ethical dilemma for Superman posed by whether to keep K-tech out of the military's hands does underscore the worries that Jonathan Kent expressed to Clark about really needing to be ready for his role as Superman. I actually kind of like that it echoes back onto Jonathan's hand-wringing about this. If Superman screws up here by rationalizing that he should "not interfere" it could actually be a valuable lesson in the character's personal development. Because the results will be a Very Bad Thing. Whatever the intellectual rationale is for Superman not taking the ship for himself, in fact no way should the government be trusted with it. That will be painfully evident from the outcome we'll see played out in this film: the government allows Lex to reverse-engineer it, and the megalomaniac creates Doomsday with it.

I mean, I was just assuming that Superman would take possession of the ship and make it his FoS. It didn't even occur to me that he would struggle with the ethics of whether to interfere with humans gaining access to K-tech. It just seemed like a no-brainer to me.

But as a tie-in back onto Jonathan's worries, and by way of imagining what these superheroes might be like in the real world, it does sort of work. (That he foolishly leaves the scout ship undisturbed.)

And I want to develop this line of thought by adding that Batman should totally understand the reasons for not trusting the government. He has seen nothing but corruption in government in Gotham. And he surely knows the potential for corruption is magnified exponentially at the federal level.

Zack Snyder has said regarding Bats vs. Supes' core conflict:

"So their relationship is very contentious. What Superman sees as Batman’s limits, Batman sees as Superman trying to control him, acting like an absolute dictator."

So I think there is a substantial chance that the government will depict Batman as a vigilante threat and might well ask Superman to intervene against Bats, as was the case in Frank Miller's TDKR. That would not be a direct adaptation of the graphic novel. But I could see the Superman having forged an uneasy alliance with the military and agreeing to set limits on Batman (with the real reason being that Amanda Waller is actually behind the request, because Batman has the potential to undermine her program). By the same token, I expect Batman should be bitterly opposed to Amanda Waller's program, and other government meta-human R&D. (And I expect the two of them to butt heads in Suicide Squad).

See, that would actually provide a lot of fuel for Batman's animosity against Superman right from the getgo. Similar to TDKR in which a jaded and world weary Batman sees Superman as a gullible lapdog of the government. Again, BvS will select what it likes from source material to build its own original story--it won't be a direct translation of the novel. But I'm expecting to see something close to that theme.

If you watch the party scene exchange between Clark and Bruce in that light it does sort of come together nicely. But this is of course just one of many possibilities for what is happening there.

I would also not be surprised to see Batman monitoring the government's secret meta-human research and development (weaponization) programs like Waller's and Cadmus, etc. Not to mention that the government is surely attempting to spy on Batman, and probably knows he is Bruce Wayne. So he needs countervailing security measures, and to match them stride for stride by spying on them in reverse. And that may be why we see Jena Malone as Oracle.

 

[Bibs11]

I think Batman and Superman fight doomsday for a while, Bats in his plane of course. Then when his plane is taken out that's when WW comes in and he just gadgets the **** outta Doomsday.

I'm starting to wonder if we'll see much of a fight with Doomsday...what if the ending is more cliffhanger-esque where the action is mostly centered around Batman v Superman and then the trinity is in the middle of a battle with Doomsday and it cuts to black?

 

[jfurioso]

Exactly. What could be learned? The scout ship has a phantom drive, right?

I doubt it. It has hibernation chambers, which means longer travel times.

 

[Rogzilla]

It definitely didn't. Only Kal-el's pod and Black Zero had Phantom Drives.

 

[Charlatan]

It would, but usually Superman is very Libertarian in his approach. See, this is part of my view on the tech. It's not that different than the K-tech issue. Superman, when it comes to world politics, keeps out of it. He doesn't pick winners and losers, no matter how a situation in any particular country offends him. To him, there is in fact a higher ideal than just saving lives. If he didn't think that he wouldn't be letting all these people around the world die every day at the hands of corrupt and evil regimes. He doesn't stop all that killing, raping and torture because he can't set himself up as the ultimate arbiter of things that were part of humankind from the start. He would essentially taking away freedom and setting himself up as king. It's why QUEST FOR PEACE doesn't work. Mankind created nuclear weapons and Mankind needs to sort that out.

But when it comes to things that are out of the ordinary, when it's meta human or extraterrestrial, then it falls into his lap. Let's put it this way... An Earthquake happens in Iran, he sticks around to help the wounded as much as he can, but he isn't staying to overthrow the government, even if in the long run the government is a bigger problem for the people of Iran than the Earthquake was. Frankly, I think that beyond even mere crime fighting, that's what Superman wants to spend his time doing. Helping when accidents and disasters strike as to be a symbol of what we all should do everyday. It's just all these freaks, monsters and super villains keep popping up. t:

I think you are failing to see that moral ideals are fine but putting them into action is not always clear. You take the advantages that the K-tech would bring as a given and lowball the possible/inevitable fallout. I think that Superman is, like it or not, an agent of the status quo, who, lets remember would have a personal stake and emotions attached to these particular circumstances. Sorry, but I just don't feel there is a lot of legitimacy to the idea that he would allow that paradigm shifting tech to just be studied and used willy nilly without considering the negative consequences. As for his body... Uh, he could make arrangements of fail safes or what have you, but frankly that feels like you are splitting hairs here for the sake of it.

That is a more recent take on the mythos. Back in the day he was very pro American /anti Axis

 

[Charlatan]

I'm starting to wonder if we'll see much of a fight with Doomsday...what if the ending is more cliffhanger-esque where the action is mostly centered around Batman v Superman and then the trinity is in the middle of a battle with Doomsday and it cuts to black?

No way the film ends like that. People would riot!

 

[RadioSha]

I'm starting to wonder if we'll see much of a fight with Doomsday...what if the ending is more cliffhanger-esque where the action is mostly centered around Batman v Superman and then the trinity is in the middle of a battle with Doomsday and it cuts to black?

I would riot if that happened. Very TASM2-esque

 

[WitchTrialz]

So Scoot Mcnairy is in a wheel chair right?
Okay I'm gonna throw this against the wall and see if it sticks.

Robin wasn't killed by joker, he was just brutally beaten to the point that he can't be robin anymore....enter Scoot

 

[jokesonm3]

Nah, he ain't Robin.

 

[WitchTrialz]

Nah, he ain't Robin.

You're probably right

Well I still think joker needs setup before suicide squad. All the other Big players are dormant before bvs and then come out of hiding, it only makes sense for joker to make a DKR style comeback (since everything else is inspired by that comic here). Maybe that's how Bruce gets back into it in the first act by taking down joker, then he's nice and ready in the asylum to give Harley her origin and bust out in suicide squad.

 

[Rapunzel]

Superman killed Zod on land (remember the neck snap scene?). So I don't think Zod would somehow end up at the bottom of the ocean.

But maybe that mysterious blob is something related to Doomsday? Didn't someone on these boards mention a theory that the World Engine might have somehow spawned a Doomsday.. um, proto-substance? or something along those lines? I'm not familiar with Doomsday tbh, and have been relying just on various wikis to learn about him.

Um..Zod's body could easily be under water if Superman put it there to hide it.

As for Doomsday being a blob, interesting theory. Do we have any actual proof that Lex creates Doom? Couldn't he just be experiment with Zod's body and Kryptonite?

 

[Vaibow]

We saw the crushed Superman statue with flowers around, so i'm assuming a big fight occurs and then 'normality'

 

[rogbngp]

Um..Zod's body could easily be under water if Superman put it there to hide it.

As for Doomsday being a blob, interesting theory. Do we have any actual proof that Lex creates Doom? Couldn't he just be experiment with Zod's body and Kryptonite?

I dunno, Zod's corpse in the cryogenic tank looks pretty well preserved (versus having been hidden in the ocean). But who knows what happens to a Kryptonian corpse under a yellow sun?

It's true that we don't have confirmation that Lex creates Doomsday, but it sure looks like it from the trailer and all the circumstantial clues in it.

 

[Willi Berg]

My only problem with it being a vision of a possible future is that it implies that this version of Superman is capable of becoming a heartless dictator.

Which is why I think it has more to do with Batman's paranoia and fear rather than reality.

As for why he sees parademons in his dream, I think Darkseid could be manipulating him.

People are saying that Darkseid could mind-control Superman. If he can do that, couldn't Darkseid mind-control Batman as well?

Darkseid could play to all Batman's fears and this could continue in the Justice League movies, with Batman mistrusting the other superheroes even as he fights alongside them (which we see in the comics.)

 

[Herolee10]

Out of all of the scoopers out there that have claimed to have some legit info on how this film goes, who would you guys say has been the most accurate thus far...based on what we've seen?

 

[matt47]

Out of all of the scoopers out there that have claimed to have some legit info on how this film goes, who would you guys say has been the most accurate thus far...based on what we've seen?

You now it kills me to say this but...Fart Cheese has I think.
(Faraci)

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Since we know Swanwick is going to be back, and of course we know Hunter as Finch is playing some key role (she is going to have interactions of some kind with both Superman and Lex) I wonder the extent of government involvement in the lives of Superman AND Batman in this?

Iam also wondering about Batman and Lex's interactions, not necessarily Bruce and Lex (that party scene may indicate they know each other in some capacity) but Lex and "the Bat vigilante".

 

[morningmimosa]

Which is why I think it has more to do with Batman's paranoia and fear rather than reality.

As for why he sees parademons in his dream, I think Darkseid could be manipulating him.

People are saying that Darkseid could mind-control Superman. If he can do that, couldn't Darkseid mind-control Batman as well?

Darkseid could play to all Batman's fears and this could continue in the Justice League movies, with Batman mistrusting the other superheroes even as he fights alongside them (which we see in the comics.)

What better way to ruin Batman and his unbreakable will power than to let Darkseid manipulate him over the course of multiple films.

 

[matt47]

Since we know Swanwick is going to be back, and of course we know Hunter as Finch is playing some key role (she is going to have interactions of some kind with both Superman and Lex) I wonder the extent of government involvement in the lives of Superman AND Batman in this?

Iam also wondering about Batman and Lex's interactions, not necessarily Bruce and Lex (that party scene may indicate they know each other in some capacity) but Lex and "the Bat vigilante".

I personally loved the government involvement in MoS and would be happy to see it extend into this movie. I'm happy they are bringing Swanwick back, makes me wish Hardy was still alive and around

I too wonder what Batman and Lex's interactions will be in this movie, if any! I wouldn't be surprised if they never cross paths.