Civil War The Civil War "ANYTHING GOES" Thread - ENTER AT YOUR OWN RISK - NO SPOILER TAGS REQ.! - Part 2

[Darkraid]

The post credit scene in Ant-man made it seem like Falcon needed Ant-man to help get Bucky out that vice. But then I read it was Cap and Falcon that put Bucky in there. What gives?

Misdirection. They put him in there. They wanted Ant-Man to fight Team Iron Man.

 

[Darkraid]

This film made me hate the Captain. For me, Tony was right and the real... Hero.
1. Because of his break with Pepper, he's really devastated. Especially after IR3. And with what's happening to Rhodes, it's normal for him to be mad.
2. Because he's trying to make the avengers stay together, and Steve is break in the team. No one can see this else from Rhodes and Vision. Plus, Clint is a real jerk.
3. Because of the story with his parents. Steve is so stupid for keeping it to himself. Soooooo stupid.

Anyway, can't wait for them to regroup one more time and see how things are going to be between Tony and the team.

I agree. Cap messed up. Stark was right. Steve wins the fight. Tony wins the arugment.

 

[Solaire]

This film made me hate the Captain. For me, Tony was right and the real... Hero.
1. Because of his break with Pepper, he's really devastated. Especially after IR3. And with what's happening to Rhodes, it's normal for him to be mad.
2. Because he's trying to make the avengers stay together, and Steve is break in the team. No one can see this else from Rhodes and Vision. Plus, Clint is a real jerk.
3. Because of the story with his parents. Steve is so stupid for keeping it to himself. Soooooo stupid.

Anyway, can't wait for them to regroup one more time and see how things are going to be between Tony and the team.

I was always on Team Iron Man. I wouldn't be surprised if people went in on Team Cap and ended up switching sides in the end. Surprised that Cap never told Iron Man about Bucky being the one to kill his parents.

It felt good to see angry Tony.

 

[Chesterfield]

I just found it a little bit stupid. They should just be living a in a house. They change things that don't really need to be changed.

Why is it stupid? People moan that Peter shouldn't be able to make his costume but want to throw a fit because Aunt May who's struggling to make ends and raise her nephew as a single parent isn't living in a cushy big ass house? If you want to go for realism then it's silly to pick and choose especially when it comes to the reality of housing. It actually makes more sense that Peter and May are living in an apartment and not in an actual big ol'house like it's been portrayed in every incarnation of Spidey's mythology (until now).

 

[Chesterfield]

But nowadays, people with economic difficulties would be more likely to be living in an apartment than a house.

Thank you. This guy gets it.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

I was always on Team Iron Man. I wouldn't be surprised if people went in on Team Cap and ended up switching sides in the end. Surprised that Cap never told Iron Man about Bucky being the one to kill his parents.

It felt good to see angry Tony.

I came in as team Cap, came out team both... Both were right, both were wrong. it was very conflicting. Both made mistakes

Cap was wrong for not talking things out with Tony.. but Tony was also wrong for wanting a mind controlled man who couldn't help his actions dead.... both had issues with Reason.

 

[Mjölnir]

Cap was also right in that being controlled by someone else can lead to them having to do, or abide by, pretty bad things. Like Tony realized when his old friends were thrown into an isolated super prison without any trial.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

Thank you. This guy gets it.

it depends on their economic situation... Mays apartment looked pretty nice... Peters room was bare, but the apartment didn't read "poor" to me.

it also depends on if the house she and ben were living in was paid off...

I always assumed May's home was paid off in the films.. and likely received some money from the Parker estate to do that (Richard and Mary weren't poor after all) ... but that of course would still mean property taxes, peters college, funeral bills.. etc.. so you can still be poor while living in a house

i found the apartment off-putting personally.. and realistic or not. it came off like a college dorm hall more so than any apartment building i've ever lived in.

 

[Endeavor]

if we're being honest the movie plays out the vs theme on a much better scale and plot.

Truth

 

[spideyboy_1111]

Thank you. This guy gets it.

Cap was also right in that being controlled by someone else can lead to them having to do, or abide by, pretty bad things. Like Tony realized when his old friends were thrown into an isolated super prison without any trial.

yup

No one really one this Civil War imo.. both were very right.. and both lost hard.

Tony seems to have lost the hardest though... he should be in some what of a dark place for a bit.

 

[TalismanRing]

Why is it stupid? People moan that Peter shouldn't be able to make his costume but want to throw a fit because Aunt May who's struggling to make ends and raise her nephew as a single parent isn't living in a cushy big ass house? If you want to go for realism then it's silly to pick and choose especially when it comes to the reality of housing. It actually makes more sense that Peter and May are living in an apartment and not in an actual big ol'house like it's been portrayed in every incarnation of Spidey's mythology (until now).

Yep, they're lucky they can afford an apt that big in Forrest Hills, Queens in a single job household. Ben dying young and losing his salary would be cause for struggle unless he had a huge insurance policy.

The avg house costs around $1m and that would be a row house.

http://www.trulia.com/real_estate/Forest_Hills-New_York/

I guess if she was like 80+ in the comics one could believe had a house for 60 years and got it cheap but who would hold on to that expensive real estate if they could make other end meet?

 

[spideyboy_1111]

YES!
YOU SEE THIS IS HOW YOU TELL CIVIL WAR! THIS IS WHY THE RUSSOS SUCCEEDED!

People are actually divided between Cap and Stark And tbh both are right. None of the stuff Bucky did was his fault. None of the damage the heroes caused was intentional. Therefore Cap has an excuse for disagreeing and defending Bucky.


Then theres Stark, Bucky killed his parents, he just went through heart break, a kid died because of his actions. All he wants to do is something right for once and get his team together but instead it made the entire situation worse.


Both heroes were emotionally distraught and determined to defend their ideologies. It wasn't just Stark being a jerk, teaming up with villains, ruining lives and getting heroes KILLED like in the CW comic. Not that i didn't enjoy the comic, but if we're being honest the movie plays out the vs theme on a much better scale and plot.

totally... Tony went overboard in the books and made himself way too much of a villain and painted cap as if he were perfect... the film stopped tony from flying too close to the son, and also clipped Cap's wings a bit to level the playing field. it was incredibly well thought out

 

[Chesterfield]

it depends on their economic situation... Mays apartment looked pretty nice... Peters room was bare, but the apartment didn't read "poor" to me.

it also depends on if the house she and ben were living in was paid off...

I always assumed May's home was paid off in the films.. and likely received some money from the Parker estate to do that (Richard and Mary weren't poor after all) ... but that of course would still mean property taxes, peters college, funeral bills.. etc.. so you can still be poor while living in a house

i found the apartment off-putting personally.. and realistic or not. it came off like a college dorm hall more so than any apartment building i've ever lived in.

If her apartment looks nice it's because she can afford basic essentials to make the place not look like a crack house. Furnishing an apartment to a decent level when you're not covering costs and bills for an entire house allows for that. Like you said, Peter's room was bare so it's not like they're living like Frasier Crane or Barny Stinson. In any case, I for one don't have a problem with it.

 

[Endeavor]

I agree. Cap messed up. Stark was right. Steve wins the fight. Tony wins the arugment.

I disagree.
Even though Tony is right from one point of view, he's also succumbing to a knee-jerk reaction based on emotional responses.
He's neglecting that one of the people pushing him to his side of the argument is guilty of the very same things that they're being accused of (Ross was responsible for the Abomination's destruction of Harlem, something his buddy Banner would've informed him on, assuming Fury hadn't).
Cap has very valid reasons for his actions and stance.
He's been under the situation of reporting to people with duplicitous agendas. He's probably still feeling the repercussions of that, from his previous film. Putting himself in the hands of a political entity that is fertile ground for corruption and infiltration is just not a position that he can put himself in again.
Not telling Tony about his parents is a bad decision, but one that I understand. It would have created a conflict that would have placed both of his friends in danger and if that in itself is hard, the fact that Bucky only had a part in that because he was being controlled doesn't make it any easier.
In fact, Tony's reaction pretty much validates what Steve probably feared from the beginning and why he didn't tell him. Of course, it made things worse, but that doesn't mean his fears on the matter were off.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

Yep, they're lucky they can afford an apt that big in Forrest Hills, Queens in a single job household. Ben dying young and losing his salary would be cause for struggle unless he had a huge insurance policy.

The avg house costs around $1m and that would be a row house.

http://www.trulia.com/real_estate/Forest_Hills-New_York/

I guess if she was like 80+ in the comics one could believe had a house for 60 years and got it cheap but who would hold on to that expensive real estate if they could make other end meet?

well again, it could have been the home May or Ben grew up in too... and the house could have been long paid off... there's ways they could have made it believably make sense. It's not like the past 2 films left a gaping hole of questioning and illogic

 

[Chesterfield]

Yep, they're lucky they can afford an apt that big in Forrest Hills, Queens in a single job household. Ben dying young and losing his salary would be cause for struggle unless he had a huge insurance policy.

The avg house costs around $1m and that would be a row house.

http://www.trulia.com/real_estate/Forest_Hills-New_York/

I guess if she was like 80+ in the comics one could believe had a house for 60 years and got it cheap but who would hold on to that expensive real estate if they could make other end meet?

Well there you go.

 

[captainrogers]

Yep, they're lucky they can afford an apt that big in Forrest Hills, Queens in a single job household. Ben dying young and losing his salary would be cause for struggle unless he had a huge insurance policy.

The avg house costs around $1m and that would be a row house.

http://www.trulia.com/real_estate/Forest_Hills-New_York/

I guess if she was like 80+ in the comics one could believe had a house for 60 years and got it cheap but who would hold on to that expensive real estate if they could make other end meet?

Why are we assuming Ben Died young?
Marisa Tomei/Aunt May is in her Early 50s.
Let's assume Ben was the same age or Older.
Pete is, according to this film series, 16 or so.
He gained his powers 6 months prior.
Also, what if it was Ben's Childhood home that he bought off or inherited from his own parents?
Traditionally Pete gains his powers first, THEN Ben dies.
So Ben would have been AT LEAST 50 plus years at his time of death.
Besides, as soon as we start picking at financials, in films that have Robuts and Green Rage Trolls....well...there are certain background aspects that can get a pass.
I'm okay with Aunt May having a house.
PETER on the other hand, when he moves out, should have a dinky apartment.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

If her apartment looks nice it's because she can afford basic essentials to make the place not look like a crack house. Furnishing an apartment to a decent level when you're not covering costs and bills for an entire house allows for that. Like you said, Peter's room was bare so it's not like they're living like Frasier Crane or Barny Stinson. In any case, I for one don't have a problem with it.

my point was it looked nice and stylish... it didn't look like Dollar tree.. so if she's broke and struggling... she probably shouldn't be decorating, and sipping back wine with tony stark...

I would like to see the Solo film put them back in the parker home though.. maybe tony buys them the house back in the solo.. idk. A home also gives him more privacy sneaking in and out i'd imagine.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

Why are we assuming Ben Died young?
Marisa Tomei/Aunt May is in her Early 50s.
Let's assume Ben was the same age or Older.
Pete is, according to this film series, 16 or so.
He gained his powers 6 months prior.
Also, what if it was Ben's Childhood home that he bought off or inherited from his own parents?
Traditionally Pete gains his powers first, THEN Ben dies.
So Ben would have been AT LEAST 50 plus years at his time of death.
Besides, as soon as we start picking at financials, in films that have Robuts and Green Rage Trolls....well...there are certain background aspects that can get a pass.
I'm okay with Aunt May having a house.
PETER on the other hand, when he moves out, should have a dinky apartment.

agrees, and all of this ^^^

 

[MarvelMayhem]

Was there is really over the top cool tech introduced in this film? Tony suit wise or anyone else?

And how are the Bucky hydra flashbacks handled...like is he randomly remembering stuff or or is his flashbacks handled more coherent? Does he seem still jumbled up?

 

[TalismanRing]

Why are we assuming Ben Died young?
Marisa Tomei/Aunt May is in her Early 50s.
Let's assume Ben was the same age or Older.
Pete is, according to this film series, 16 or so.
He gained his powers 6 months prior.
Also, what if it was Ben's Childhood home that he bought off or inherited from his own parents?
Traditionally Pete gains his powers first, THEN Ben dies.
So Ben would have been AT LEAST 50 plus years at his time of death.
Besides, as soon as we start picking at financials, in films that have Robuts and Green Rage Trolls....well...there are certain background aspects that can get a pass.
I'm okay with Aunt May having a house.
PETER on the other hand, when he moves out, should have a dinky apartment.

50s in this day and age is young. That's still a working man who's 401k hasn't been completely built up.

The apt isn't dinky in the movie it's a nice apt that probably costs $2k+ month in rent unless they've been there so long it's rent stabilized. This is modern NYC not fantasy land NYC like Friends where people out of work half the time live in large spacious apts in the West Viliage.

When Peter moves out and is barely making minimum wage then we can see what a real rat hole apt in NYC looks like. About 120 sq feet with the toilet and rusty old tub in the kitchen.

 

[noakai]

my point was it looked nice and stylish... it didn't look like Dollar tree.. so if she's broke and struggling... she probably shouldn't be decorating, and sipping back wine with tony stark...

I would like to see the Solo film put them back in the parker home though.. maybe tony buys them the house back in the solo.. idk. A home also gives him more privacy sneaking in and out i'd imagine.

Just because someone can afford a nice-looking apartment doesn't automatically mean that they can afford a house. There's quite a big gap between being able to afford one or the other, especially in a city like NY where rent is ridiculous but owning a place is even more ridiculous. Or hell, even if May could technically afford a house, maybe she feels like she doesn't need one since it's just her and Peter, or maybe where their apartment is located is closer to Peter's school or her own job, etc.

In fact, Tony's reaction pretty much validates what Steve probably feared from the beginning and why he didn't tell him. Of course, it made things worse, but that doesn't mean his fears on the matter were off.

Ahh but here's the question: would Tony have had the same reaction if Steve had told him before, when Bucky wasn't standing right there and Tony also hadn't just seen an extremely graphic video of Winter Soldier actually doing it? That's the kinda thing I think we're supposed wonder about, even if we agree that Bucky's not responsible and are glad Steve stopped Tony from killing him in his rage.

 

[Chatote]

YES!
YOU SEE THIS IS HOW YOU TELL CIVIL WAR! THIS IS WHY THE RUSSOS SUCCEEDED!

People are actually divided between Cap and Stark And tbh both are right. None of the stuff Bucky did was his fault. None of the damage the heroes caused was intentional. Therefore Cap has an excuse for disagreeing and defending Bucky.


Then theres Stark, Bucky killed his parents, he just went through heart break, a kid died because of his actions. All he wants to do is something right for once and get his team together but instead it made the entire situation worse.


Both heroes were emotionally distraught and determined to defend their ideologies. It wasn't just Stark being a jerk, teaming up with villains, ruining lives and getting heroes KILLED like in the CW comic. Not that i didn't enjoy the comic, but if we're being honest the movie plays out the vs theme on a much better scale and plot.

I disagree.
Even though Tony is right from one point of view, he's also succumbing to a knee-jerk reaction based on emotional responses.
He's neglecting that one of the people pushing him to his side of the argument is guilty of the very same things that they're being accused of (Ross was responsible for the Abomination's destruction of Harlem, something his buddy Banner would've informed him on, assuming Fury hadn't).
Cap has very valid reasons for his actions and stance.
He's been under the situation of reporting to people with duplicitous agendas. He's probably still feeling the repercussions of that, from his previous film. Putting himself in the hands of a political entity that is fertile ground for corruption and infiltration is just not a position that he can put himself in again.
Not telling Tony about his parents is a bad decision, but one that I understand. It would have created a conflict that would have placed both of his friends in danger and if that in itself is hard, the fact that Bucky only had a part in that because he was being controlled doesn't make it any easier.
In fact, Tony's reaction pretty much validates what Steve probably feared from the beginning and why he didn't tell him. Of course, it made things worse, but that doesn't mean his fears on the matter were off.

On the other hand, progress comes with mistakes. Through the Ironman and avengers movies, we've seen how Tony has grown (don't get me wrong, I'm not defending Ross). Steve is still stuck in the past whereas Tony is moving to the future.
And if Steve had talked to Tony, he could have calm him down and it wouldn't have gotten this bad. He should have trust his friend. I mean, if he had told him the moment he had learned, he wouldn't have broken his trust and every thing. And Tony was going to help them!
Personally, I think anyone in his situation with all the things that were going on in his life would have succomb to their emotional reaction in the same way.

I can see a beautiful IR4 ^^
When there's life, there's hope.

 

[JtheDreamer]

On the other hand, progress comes with mistakes. Through the Ironman and avengers movies, we've seen how Tony has grown (don't get me wrong, I'm not defending Ross). Steve is still stuck in the past whereas Tony is moving to the future.
And if Steve had talked to Tony, he could have calm him down and it wouldn't have gotten this bad. He should have trust his friend. I mean, if he had told him the moment he had learned, he wouldn't have broken his trust and every thing. And Tony was going to help them!
Personally, I think anyone in his situation with all the things that were going on in his life would have succomb to their emotional reaction in the same way.

I can see a beautiful IR4 ^^
When there's life, there's hope.

What I find ironic is Stark's reaction to the lady's story about her dead son in this movie - but in AOU he only had a quick "This wasn't my life" reaction when the Maximoff twins mentioned the Stark Industry missiles that killed their family and left the two of them waiting to die for days.

 

[Endeavor]

And if Steve had talked to Tony, he could have calm him down and it wouldn't have gotten this bad. He should have trust his friend. I mean, if he had told him the moment he had learned, he wouldn't have broken his trust and every thing. And Tony was going to help them!

Yes. This is a very good point. But it doesn't mean Cap's side of the main argument in the story is any less valid than Tony's.
However, having this particular scenario in the movie is a stroke of genius.

Steve, in spite of his physical perfection, is still flawed. He's human.
He makes mistakes.
Just like Tony has made mistakes, and those have contributed to his growth as a character...
This mistake is going to point the characters in interesting paths in the coming movies. It will probably end up embellishing Steve and Tony's characterizations and friendship that much more in the future. Cap has already taken the first step in mending things.