Civil War The Civil War "ANYTHING GOES" Thread - ENTER AT YOUR OWN RISK - NO SPOILER TAGS REQ.! - Part 2

[Brian Braddock]

@ Nathan - to be honest, I really dont think that Tony is thinking of potential victims - its ALL about his mum and dad (moreso his mum).

 

[Jaxon]

Exactly. The man who killed your parents is standing right beside you as you watch it happen brutally on a screen. Brainwashed to do it or not, in that moment, that f***er is going to die. It's what I'd do.

And Jaxon it didn't come out of nowhere, just stop it. You come to these boards spouting the same s**t over and over again and when people point out to you why you are wrong (as in non existant plot holes) or whats actually present in the movie, you don't even acknowledge them.

I do acknowledge what you're trying to say, but it is simply undeniable that Zemo's plot makes no sense.

Zemo's plot: Get Cap and Tony in a room, show them the video and they fight to the death. That's laughable on every level.

And you see it in the delivery. Tony asks Cap if he knew. If Caps say no, then nothing happens. Cap says he does know and hid it from him from good reason - OK death match then. It's really bad scripting.


Marvel wants it's heroes to be heroes then tries to make a movie about pitting them against each other, it just doesn't create any tension. It's pretty, BP was cool, SM was cool, they all looked cool, but it has no weight to it. You can't stack this movie against CATWS which had an emotional core that mattered. This one was fundamentally a flawed concept because of the MCU rules. They'll course correct in Infinity Wars because they're all good guys again with a new bad guy. Given that the Russos at least could do a good bad guy (albeit a ridiculous plotline) means I hope with tighter scripting they can deliver on Thanos.

 

[Avid Avenger]

I do acknowledge what you're trying to say, but it is simply undeniable that Zemo's plot makes no sense.

Zemo's plot: Get Cap and Tony in a room, show them the video and they fight to the death. That's laughable on every level.

And you see it in the delivery. Tony asks Cap if he knew. If Caps say no, then nothing happens. Cap says he does know and hid it from him from good reason - OK death match then. It's really bad scripting.


Marvel wants it's heroes to be heroes then tries to make a movie about pitting them against each other, it just doesn't create any tension. It's pretty, BP was cool, SM was cool, they all looked cool, but it has no weight to it. You can't stack this movie against CATWS which had an emotional core that mattered. This one was fundamentally a flawed concept because of the MCU rules. They'll course correct in Infinity Wars because they're all good guys again with a new bad guy. Given that the Russos at least could do a good bad guy (albeit a ridiculous plotline) means I hope with tighter scripting they can deliver on Thanos.

I've already explained Zemos plan, here it is again, but you may want to reread the last two.

---------------------------------------

Zemos plan was, yes, to have the Avengers tear themselves apart.

He is of course patient and intelligent and after Sokovia decrypted many of Hydras files that were released. He found out who and what Bucky was to Cap and Hydra and matched up the date of a mission report in one of the files that occurred the same day of Tonys parents death. There probably was something about there being actual footage hidden somewhere, very likely where Bucky was kept.

He got the book with Buckys code and framed him for the bombing as well as proved he was still dangerous by activating him and having him attack and escape. Once Cap found him and told him the details of what he wanted to know, he knew Cap would believe him and they'd go. That's why when he found out Cap and Bucky were on their way, he then called the hotel so that they'd find the body of the actual therapist. Tony would realise the truth, find out where they were going and meet them there.

Then the footage. Tony was now in the same room as the man that killed his parents. He watched him beat his father to death and choke his mother. And Cap has known for a while. Now, if you can't see why Tony would want to kill Bucky then...I have no hope for you. And if you've actually watched the movie and the other Cap movies then you'd know that there is 100% no chance that Steve would allow Tony to kill Bucky. And that's why they fight. Cap is trying to stop Tony from killing the friend he was actually ready to be killed by because he couldn't bring himself to kill him. Tony is fueled by grief, rage and vengence and feels betrayed by one of his closest friends. Neither will back down and regardless if any of them die, the two leaders of the Avengers are torn apart and will never be the same again.

WE know that Infinity War is coming and they'll likely repair their relationship then, but for Zemo, this is the end of the team that took his family from him. Did he ever say he wanted any of them actually dead. Sure it would be great if it happened. But he got what he wanted. At the end of the movie, HE WINS.

Yes, Zemo made assumptions and took a gamble here and there. But they aren't crazy leaps in logic and there's several points in the movie that his plan could still continue if one aspect of his plan failed. Hell the Accords and the split viewpoints of the Avengers was the perfect time to hit them with this revelation.

YOU keep trying to totally demean the end game by saying "put them in a room together and just showing them a video" and how that's poorly scripted by omitting the fact of WHO is in the room and WHAT is on the video. The brutal murder of a mans parents by the man standing feet from him and this secret being kept by the other who already knew and chose to hide it to protect them both. That's not poorly scripted at all, that's a masterclass in storytelling and world building that has been built up for 8 years.

-----------------------------------

And I'll also add, no...

Tony: Did you know about this?
Steve: No, I didn't, Tony.
Tony: Ah well, that make it okay. Hey Bucky, don't worry about it, we're cool.

It would have happened if Steve knew, or admitted he knew, about his parents. Tony wanted to know if he knew or not. If he didn't know, then maybe he wouldn't have been as pissed at Steve, so the inital battle wouldn't have been as brutal. Doesn't stop Tony from trying to kill Bucky and Steve defending him. He also wants to know because to him, he can't believe his friend, and his fathers friend, the guy who his father loved and talked about with affection, would allow Bucky to essentially get away with his murder. To Tony, It's a betrayal to Howard and himself.
But he did know. And all trust, friendship and loyalty crumbled in that moment.


There's nothing poor about the script..

 

[FunkMiller]

I do acknowledge what you're trying to say, but it is simply undeniable that Zemo's plot makes no sense.

Zemo's plot: Get Cap and Tony in a room, show them the video and they fight to the death. That's laughable on every level.

...you know, if you keep saying stuff like that, somebody is eventually going to bring up Lex's plans in BvS, and you're not going to like that, are you?

Zemo's plan was simplistic, but it made sense. In a movie geared around protagonists fighting one another, keeping the antagonist's motives simple is a sensible option.

Stop thrashing this movie because you don't like the fact it's miles and away better than BvS.

Us DC fans got ****ed. I don't like any more than you do, but it's the truth.

 

[Avid Avenger]

...you know, if you keep saying stuff like that, somebody is eventually going to bring up Lex's plans in BvS, and you're not going to like that, are you?

Yea, I wasn't going to bring it up.


But mostly cause I still don't know what his ****ing endgame was...or how he managed to pull off some of that ****.
And I know one of the main arguements is "Well nuh, Lex is incredibly smart!"

Well, so is Zemo.

 

[FunkMiller]

Yea, I wasn't going to bring it up.


But mostly cause I still don't know what his ****ing endgame was...or how he managed to pull off some of that ****.
And I know one of the main arguements is "Well nuh, Lex is incredibly smart!"

Well, so is Zemo.

His plan was to get Batman to kill Superman, and also to get Doomsday to kill Superman... for no adequately explored reason.

While Zemo's plan is not what you'd call the work of a genius, it is easy to understand, logical, and serves its purpose - which is pretty much all I wanted from him, to be honest. The throw down is between Steve and Tony. It doesn't need a third party getting in the mix. I was delighted when the other winter soldiers were not introduced. That would have been groan inducingly poor.

Having your two protagonists at each other's throats for the whole movie, only to have them make up and fight some external, hastily introduced third party or parties in the final act would have been very poor writing.

 

[Avid Avenger]

His plan was to get Batman to kill Superman, and also to get Doomsday to kill Superman... for no adequately explored reason.

While Zemo's plan is not what you'd call the work of a genius, it is easy to understand, logical, and serves its purpose - which is pretty much all I wanted from him, to be honest. The throw down is between Steve and Tony. It doesn't need a third party getting in the mix. I was delighted when the other winter soldiers were not introduced. That would have been groan inducingly poor.

Having your two protagonists at each other's throats for the whole movie, only to have them make up and fight some external, hastily introduced third party or parties in the final act would have been very poor writing.

Yea, and there was a simple reason for Zemo wanting the two to fight and destroy themselves or at least the team. They are responsible for the death of his family. It's very easy, if a bit obvious. But it works.

I'm also glad the Accords weren't Zemos plan either, and he isn't actually responsible for the rift forming between the team in the first place. Rather he sees it happening and thinks "Perfect. I make this even wider...hell I can blow it up."
Hence why he had to be paitent, bide his time until his plan could be done and cause much more damage.

 

[Tymminator]

Yea, I wasn't going to bring it up.


But mostly cause I still don't know what his ****ing endgame was...or how he managed to pull off some of that ****.
And I know one of the main arguements is "Well nuh, Lex is incredibly smart!"

Well, so is Zemo.

A big flaw with BvS is it's not just enogh to accept that Lex is smart, but for us to also be ignorant of the fact or simply ignore that Batman is SUPPOSED to be also incredibly smart and also THE WORLDS GREATEST DETECTIVE and that Bruce is just going to fall for the flimsiest of plots against him.

Seriously, if Lex had somehow hit Bruce with a "stupid-ray", at least that would justify Batman's actions and drive for much of the movie, IMO.

The reasons Tony and Steve are at each other at the end, and the fact that it is all so personally motivated makes it why people will watch this movie and can get into debates over who was right...Team Cap or Team Ironman and I have seen both sides talk...to me (and apparently several others) that's solid storytelling. There is no such debate in the BvS movie, none really at all.

 

[Nathan]

I'm also glad the Accords weren't Zemos plan either, and he isn't actually responsible for the rift forming between the team in the first place. Rather he sees it happening and thinks "Perfect. I make this even wider...hell I can blow it up."
Hence why he had to be paitent, bide his time until his plan could be done and cause much more damage.

I didn't even think of it like that. A rift would have always happened, with or without Zemo. But it would have been a rift easily mended over time, since no friendships would have been broken beyond repair. But Zemo, who has been biding his time and preparing, sees this as the perfect opportunity to execute his plans, to cause a rift they can't simply recover from. So Zemo isn't the cause of the accords. The accords are Zemo's opportunity to exact his revenge.

 

[Overman27pj]

I didn't even think of it like that. A rift would have always happened, with or without Zemo. But it would have been a rift easily mended over time, since no friendships would have been broken beyond repair. But Zemo, who has been biding his time and preparing, sees this as the perfect opportunity to execute his plans, to cause a rift they can't simply recover from. So Zemo isn't the cause of the accords. The accords are Zemo's opportunity to exact his revenge.

Also, Zemo, by bringing Bucky into it, makes Cap break the accords right when they are fresh. Odds are, even with the accords, something would have happened where someone was forced to call in Avengers that didn't sign for help, then they would be forced to say "You saved thousands of lives, and yeah you didn't sign, but you are a hero, so it's cool" and the accords would have fallen apart. Zemo uses that as a weapon. It's amazing really. I love it. Subtle, smart, exciting!

 

[Charlatan]

A big flaw with BvS is it's not just enogh to accept that Lex is smart, but for us to also be ignorant of the fact or simply ignore that Batman is SUPPOSED to be also incredibly smart and also THE WORLDS GREATEST DETECTIVE and that Bruce is just going to fall for the flimsiest of plots against him.

Seriously, if Lex had somehow hit Bruce with a "stupid-ray", at least that would justify Batman's actions and drive for much of the movie, IMO.

The reasons Tony and Steve are at each other at the end, and the fact that it is all so personally motivated makes it why people will watch this movie and can get into debates over who was right...Team Cap or Team Ironman and I have seen both sides talk...to me (and apparently several others) that's solid storytelling. There is no such debate in the BvS movie, none really at all.

It was an easy sell for Lex because Bruce already had his problems with Superman. And the machinations felt like they were organic. Disgruntled employee who lost their legs becoming a terrorist is an easy sell. Him blaming Wayne and sending back the checks is believable. Superman becoming corrupted or tyrannical is believable because power does tend to corrupt.

 

[Wylie Times]

I didn't realize this was the Civil War vs BatmanVSuperman thread.....

 

[dyl1dyl]

Talking about the chatter about Vision and Wanda being romantically involved, it doesn't seem like it's that way as of yet. In all the interviews so far, both Elizabeth and Paul keep saying that Vision and wanda have sweet scenes but that it's currently a friendship based on their similar "newness" to their powers. They do say that the relationship might develop in the future though

 

[Tymminator]

It was an easy sell for Lex because Bruce already had his problems with Superman. And the machinations felt like they were organic. Disgruntled employee who lost their legs becoming a terrorist is an easy sell. Him blaming Wayne and sending back the checks is believable. Superman becoming corrupted or tyrannical is believable because power does tend to corrupt.

It's not an easy sell when you are talking about Batman. Someone sends him notes blaming him for Robin's death, and focusing on Superman is all he can come away with. No.

I could see other Superheroes falling for that, but not Batman. It is a straight up amateur plot that got him, and that doesn't fit.

 

[Tymminator]

I didn't realize this was the Civil War vs BatmanVSuperman thread.....

You're right. My bad.

 

[Wylie Times]

Talking about the chatter about Vision and Wanda being romantically involved, it doesn't seem like it's that way as of yet. In all the interviews so far, both Elizabeth and Paul keep saying that Vision and wanda have sweet scenes but that it's currently a friendship based on their similar "newness" to their powers. They do say that the relationship might develop in the future though

Likely one of those things where people are putting the cart before the horse. Folks know they get married in the comics so anything beyond cold indifference in the films is interpreted as a full on romance.

Plus people tend to act as if platonic relationships don't exist. Hence all the Cap/Natasha and Natasha/Clint shipping that was going on.

 

[Tymminator]

Who here has seen this movie multiple times? Did anyone see any other characters locked up in the Raft besides the heroes?

I predict most of Spidey's Villians end up in the raft in the future. (I wish Crossbones was locked up there, I hate that they keep killing the Villians)

The thing about the Raft is, it's the Raft breakout that forms the New Avengers in the comics.

 

[marshal99]

At this point , the relationship is platonic but the building blocks are there. It is clear from the movie that vision do cares about wanda.

 

[Charlatan]

It's not an easy sell when you are talking about Batman. Someone sends him notes blaming him for Robin's death, and focusing on Superman is all he can come away with. No.

I could see other Superheroes falling for that, but not Batman. It is a straight up amateur plot that got him, and that doesn't fit.

See you're wrong there. First off he never got those notes until after the fact. Secondly they weren't about Robin they were about his employees who died when the building collapsed.

 

[Drz]

Poor Zemo, the Joker can have just as far fetched plan in the Dark Knight and he gets an Oscar for it but Zemo just gets critized.

 

[dyl1dyl]

Likely one of those things where people are putting the cart before the horse. Folks know they get married in the comics so anything beyond cold indifference in the films is interpreted as a full on romance.

Plus people tend to act as if platonic relationships don't exist. Hence all the Cap/Natasha and Natasha/Clint shipping that was going on.

At this point , the relationship is platonic but the building blocks are there. It is clear from the movie that vision do cares about wanda.

Yup, I'd say there's clearly some flirting (paprika) plus hints such as Wanda being the only person who calls him Viz instead of Vision. Furthermore, they're the only 2 characters who apologize to each other after the big fight. I think there's certainly more here than there was between Cap/Nat or Nat/Clint, however, still far from certain. I'm personally hoping they do eventually develop into a couple though

 

[dyl1dyl]

Who here has seen this movie multiple times? Did anyone see any other characters locked up in the Raft besides the heroes?

I predict most of Spidey's Villians end up in the raft in the future. (I wish Crossbones was locked up there, I hate that they keep killing the Villians)

The thing about the Raft is, it's the Raft breakout that forms the New Avengers in the comics.

I've seen it twice so far. Nope, I'm very sure they only showed the heroes, specifically Hawkeye, Ant Man and Falcon in side by side normal cells and Scarlet Witch in a special like solitary confinement kind of cell. I think seeing the Abomination in there or Crossbones would have been really good for the story. Since it would have showed how badly the government was treating the heroes, that they would lock them up alongside these super bad criminals

 

[Tymminator]

Dupe post.

 

[Tymminator]

See you're wrong there. First off he never got those notes until after the fact. Secondly they weren't about Robin they were about his employees who died when the building collapsed.

OK...I guess?

Still doesn't change the fact that Batman was reduced to being a character that was VERY easily misled and not treated like one of the smartest people on the planet much less the worlds greatest detective.

I've seen it twice so far. Nope, I'm very sure they only showed the heroes, specifically Hawkeye, Ant Man and Falcon in side by side normal cells and Scarlet Witch in a special like solitary confinement kind of cell. I think seeing the Abomination in there or Crossbones would have been really good for the story. Since it would have showed how badly the government was treating the heroes, that they would lock them up alongside these super bad criminals

 

[Tymminator]

If Marvel wanted too, this really can set up a MCU version of the Thunderbolts.