The Flash The Flash General Discussion and Speculation Thread

[guitarsingerguy]

Is there really a need to bring the Superman biblical comparisons into the Flash thread?

 

[Kevin Smith]

^^ wasn't my idea. I'd just as soon not talk about MOS at all here.

 

[ManofTommorow]

Kevin Smith is right about Supes being a Moses analogue. It can be a Jesus analogue, but his origin was specifically written to resemble Moses'.

Man of Steel was the **** though. The depth is there. If only some people would bother to look for it. But art and the way it's interpreted is subjective...

 

[Hypestyle]

I hope that the show has some exciting action scenes. But they should also stress the procedural parts.. and character interactions.

 

[luis4u]

I hope that the show has some exciting action scenes. But they should also stress the procedural parts.. and character interactions.

agreed

 

[luis4u]

[YT]jUtgv2-bJ60[/YT]

 

[Paradox1]

My facts are straight, if there's any biblical parallel it's to Moses, Jesus and Superman are nothing alike. Superman was also created by jews and they don't believe or support much to do with Jesus, I'm pretty sure the last thing they'd want is for Superman to be comic book Jesus. The Jesus "parallel" for Superman has never made any sense. He wasn't sent here to "save" us, he was sent here to save himself. Big damn difference for one thing. Either you're unfamiliar with one of the stories or are just a MOS apologist. The Donner film is the thing that really went out of its way to cement the Superman = Jesus in pop culture though.

This is from google"Christ figure
also known as a Christ-Image is a literary technique that the author uses to draw allusions between their characters and the biblical Jesus Christ. More loosely, the Christ Figure is a spiritual or prophetic character who parallels Jesus, or other spiritual or prophetic figures."

From Wikipedia more in depth " In general, a character should display more than one correspondence with the story of Jesus Christ as depicted in the Bible. For instance, the character might display one or more of the following traits: performance of miracles, manifestation of divine qualities, healing others, display loving kindness and forgiveness, fight for justice, being guided by the spirit of the character's father, death and resurrection. Christ figures are often martyrs, sacrificing themselves for causes larger than themselves."

 

[Bran The Man]

[YT]jUtgv2-bJ60[/YT]

Nice!

 

[luis4u]

Nice!

Another favourite scene is when Flash and Zoom were fighting and falling off the building but started running down the wall to re-stabilize themselves. I enjoyed that whole fight..

[YT]zfG6jffSwGc[/YT]

 

[luis4u]

 

[Bran The Man]

I'm looking forward to seeing how the new show does Professor Zoom!

 

[luis4u]

I'm looking forward to seeing how the new show does Professor Zoom!

Cant wait until October. I hope it doesn’t disappoint like the anticlimactic doomsday small-ville 2 minute fight..

 

[Kevin Smith]

This is from google"Christ figure
also known as a Christ-Image is a literary technique that the author uses to draw allusions between their characters and the biblical Jesus Christ. More loosely, the Christ Figure is a spiritual or prophetic character who parallels Jesus, or other spiritual or prophetic figures."

Ok. None of that is inherent in Superman's story, and wasn't until the '78 film put it there.

From Wikipedia more in depth

* sigh * Okay, I'll play along...

" In general, a character should display more than one correspondence with the story of Jesus Christ as depicted in the Bible. For instance, the character might display one or more of the following traits: performance of miracles, manifestation of divine qualities, healing others, display loving kindness and forgiveness, fight for justice,

Anyone of the prophets or disciples, or just about any prophet in any literature for that matter....including but not limited to Jesus...

being guided by the spirit of the character's father,

Wasn't there until the '78 film....which started the whole Superman = Jesus crap to add subtext to make people see it as more than a "silly comic movie", something absolutely important to get across at the time. The logic was people take Jesus seriously, so by showing that this Superman is essentially "Jesus" in a sense then people will take Superman and our movie seriously. I get the reasoning for it but I think there was a better way to have done it, consider it one of the few detractors of the original film, and it's something that definitely could have been improved on in new versions now that we have the hindsight....there's no excuse for it not to be.

death and resurrection.

What comic book character hasn't died and returned at some point? Again, not exclusive to Superman = Jesus...Death of Superman was a stupid publicity stunt anyway (as are most comic book deaths).

Christ figures are often martyrs, sacrificing themselves for causes larger than themselves."

Yeah this makes Superman no more a Christ figure than it does pretty much any other superhero or heroic character, hell, even political figures...

Superman is not a Jesus allegory, mate. He is Superman. Superman shouldn't be made into such a thing either, I don't put a red cape on a crucifix, I don't expect people to make Superman "Jesus".

 

[Kevin Smith]

agreed

Yes. This is what I want to see.

 

[luis4u]

Yes. This is what I want to see.

can fall come here any faster...

 

[Paradox1]

Ok. None of that is inherent in Superman's story, and wasn't until the '78 film put it there.



* sigh * Okay, I'll play along...



Anyone of the prophets or disciples, or just about any prophet in any literature for that matter....including but not limited to Jesus...



Wasn't there until the '78 film....which started the whole Superman = Jesus crap to add subtext to make people see it as more than a "silly comic movie", something absolutely important to get across at the time. The logic was people take Jesus seriously, so by showing that this Superman is essentially "Jesus" in a sense then people will take Superman and our movie seriously. I get the reasoning for it but I think there was a better way to have done it, consider it one of the few detractors of the original film, and it's something that definitely could have been improved on in new versions now that we have the hindsight....there's no excuse for it not to be.



What comic book character hasn't died and returned at some point? Again, not exclusive to Superman = Jesus...Death of Superman was a stupid publicity stunt anyway (as are most comic book deaths).



Yeah this makes Superman no more a Christ figure than it does pretty much any other superhero or heroic character, hell, even political figures...

Superman is not a Jesus allegory, mate. He is Superman. Superman shouldn't be made into such a thing either, I don't put a red cape on a crucifix, I don't expect people to make Superman "Jesus".

If your going to counter with an opinion there is no need for me to respond any further.

 

[Kevin Smith]

If your

You're.

going to counter with an opinion there is no need for me to respond any further.

Everything I said was backed by facts. But you don't have to respond any further. That's fine with me. Superman is much more of a Moses figure than he is a Christ one. The similarities he bears to Christ are that he is "good" and heroic and self sacrificing....that's about where the parallel ends and it's about the same as almost any other heroic figure. He is much more of a Moses figure. Consider:

Superman was sent to earth to save himself, in a capsule, like Moses being sent down the river in a basket. He is raised by adopted parents, people he was not born to.

Moses' "enemy", Pharoh, was bald and a ruler/builder of civilization, also like Lex Luthor. They were also close during childhood which is also true of Lex and Superman depending on which version you read.

Superman's creator's were jewish - I'm sure it was not their intention to make Superman a Christ figure or have him be turned into one.

Anyway there's more but I'm tired so I'll just leave it at that for now...maybe we can get back to talking about Flash then...

 

[sportjames23]

^^ wasn't my idea. I'd just as soon not talk about MOS at all here.

Suuuure...

 

[Kevin Smith]

Suuuure...

Lol hey it was only mentioned because Waid talked about it...okay maybe I bring it up as an example of what NOT to do with The Flash but that's about it. Not going to talk about it just out of the blue here.

 

[The Guard]

Superman was like, the first modern (post Golden and Silver Age) superhero to sacrifice himself for the greater good, die and come back to life, wasn't he?

Other than Jean Grey/Phoenix, who was clearly connected thematically with the concept of The Phoenix, not with Christ.

The Death of Superman and his return storyline very much unfolds to make Superman a messiah/savior/Christ Figure. It's there. Might not be everyone's favorite part of the mythology, but it's very much there, in the comics and film interpretations. Moses and Jesus, absolutely.

 

[Kevin Smith]

Superman was like, the first modern (post Golden and Silver Age) superhero to sacrifice himself die and come back to life, wasn't he?

He was the first modern superhero in general and I know there have been other characters who've returned but I think you're right.

Other than Jean Grey Phoenix, who was clearly connected thematically with the concept of The Phoenix, not with Christ.

The Death of Superman and his return storyline very much unfolds to make Superman a messiah/savior/Christ Figure. It's there. Might not be everyone's favorite part of the mythology, but it's very much there. Moses and Jesus, absolutely.

Yet another reason why it's a terrible story. It's just a terrible parallel in general, turning Superman into Jesus...it's so forced. Which is again after the Donner film, so I'm sure that helped bolster the idea...I don't see anything inherent in the traditional story of Superman that makes him any more of a Christ figure than almost any other character.

 

[The Guard]

It's really not that forced

There's like, a year long storyline in between his death and his "resurrection", with complex characters and storylines all leading up to it.

He's not Jesus.

He's a Christ Figure.

They're not the same thing.

Piggy is a Christ Figure in LORD OF THE FLIES, but he's not Jesus.

 

[The Guard]

Moses' "enemy", Pharoh, was bald and a ruler/builder of civilization, also like Lex Luthor. They were also close during childhood which is also true of Lex and Superman depending on which version you read.

Couple things.

Luthor wasn't bald when he first appeared...he had hair.

And he wasn't a builder of civilization, even in early stories...he was a mad scientist bent on destroying society from his evl dirigible lair, complete with death ray.

Superman's creator's were jewish - I'm sure it was not their intention to make Superman a Christ figure or have him be turned into one.

I would imagine their intention was to create a character that would appeal...not just to make a character who was Jewish.

And they didn't originally create a LOT of things that have become key parts of Superman's mythos. How is that a valid argument about who the character is now?

 

[luis4u]

 

[Kevin Smith]

It's really not that forced

They're pretty forced. Superman wasn't sent here to "save" us. He was sent to save himself. That he decides to help humanity is his own decision. He's not a martyr doing someone else's will. He decides to help humanity because he thinks it's the right thing to do, not fulfill some destiny.

[/quote]There's like, a year long storyline in between his death and his "resurrection", with complex characters and storylines all leading up to it.[/quote]

So what. There's three days between Jesus death and resurrection.

He's not Jesus.

He's a Christ Figure.

They're not the same thing.

Piggy is a Christ Figure in LORD OF THE FLIES, but he's not Jesus.

Superman is no more a Christ figure than almost any other heroic character from Luke Skywalker to Spider-Man to Casey Jr...hell, even Moses. All are good and self sacrificing and inspiring. That's where the parallel ends.