The Flash The Flash Season 1 Episode 21: Grodd Lives

[Cain]

As awesome as most of the Grodd scenes where (especially loved when he stopped the punch) this was my favorite moment of the entire episode

The extra smug look on Eobard's face when he says that and then the look of complete defeat on Eddie's face lmao it was priceless.

 

[nogolf33]

Honestly, I think it would be at least somewhat easier to understand on why the Producers are portraying Iris's character in this manner.

I mean it wouldn't be hard for an average person to assume, based on watching this series alone, that the Producers want to find almost every possible means in ensuring that Iris doesn't come off as a likable character and that we shouldn't enjoy her potential/future romance with Barry.

1. She's his Foster Sister

2. She's a Hypocrite

3. She's a freaking Selfish Diva

4. She has no problem in cheating on Eddie when she's in the mood

5. She feels like she's entitled to be in control and know everything about Barry's life

...

Great list of reasons to not want Barry with Iris.
Being foster brother and sister is really important, it weirds me out to think about Barry wanting to pursue romantic feelings. Why did the show's creators think this was a good idea? Joe being a 'big brother' mentor to Barry would make more sense if they wanted this love story. Does anyone know of cases where foster siblings married? They have been living in the same house since age 8 or so.

 

[Cain]

But they're not foster siblings. Joe was just Barry's legal guardian which is not the same thing as foster father. Barry's also had those feelings for her since he was a kid living with his folks. It's not something that developed while he was living with her.

 

[RivenSky]

Does anyone know of cases where foster siblings married? They have been living in the same house since age 8 or so.

I don't really want to Google siblings marrying while I'm at work, but I can recollect hearing of several instances of non-biologically related children growing up together and being in romantic relationships. Relationships with step-siblings have been in movies and TV shows before. This isn't entirely unheard of.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

I still like Iris.
Knowing how she was kept in the dark being frustrating is understandable, I don't like it, but it's understandable.

 

[nogolf33]

But they're not foster siblings. Joe was just Barry's legal guardian which is not the same thing as foster father. Barry's also had those feelings for her since he was a kid living with his folks. It's not something that developed while he was living with her.

Cute before age 12, weirder after. I think of them as brother and sister. Joe called himself a father to Barry several times. They lived together as kids.

I don't really want to Google siblings marrying while I'm at work, but I can recollect hearing of several instances of non-biologically related children growing up together and being in romantic relationships. Relationships with step-siblings have been in movies and TV shows before. This isn't entirely unheard of.

I didn't want to google either.
I have heard it of it too in rural states. Usually as an insult...

 

[Seb]

While Do agree there is alot of fanboy hate for shipping and female characters, the real problem is that the writers in comicbook films and tv shows can't write female characters and mature relationships period. They aren't writing strong female characters are even presenting females in all that positive a light beyond just being the love interest and a pretty common one at that. What they're doing with Iris is in no way unique to her or groundbreaking to the genre. If anything she's the standard , which is what's problematic about the genre.

The fact that we can only defend or bash the Iris character in the context of a relationship is what the problem is . The fact that she is defined by the men in her life is the problem, and is why the writers shouldn't be lauded for how they're handling her character and her relationship with Barry.

At least Whedon was trying to define the Black Widow character beyond just being the love interest, even though he's gotten himself in trouble as of late for how he portrayed Black Widow.

Yes, fans are intolerant , but when you have shows and films which reduce the female characters to being defined only by their spouses and not by their character, their ambitions, and they're hopes and dreams, is far more problematic to the genre long term than are shipper haters.

I so agree with this. I think the starkest difference is between the Spiderman movies. MJ was basically just an ornament for Peter to pine over, she was beautiful, Peter was smarter, stronger, funnier, everything-er. As much as ASM2 annoyed me, throughout those two movies Gwen was smarter than Peter, she was funny, she got in the way because not only was she trying to help, she was actually succeeding at helping because she was a better scientist than Peter. The creepy way both relationships are started notwithstanding, Gwen is pretty much an example of a lead/love interest. Being a love interest is a trait of her character, not its defining characteristic.

I think that with Leslie being a fellow crime-fighter (albeit in a different way) is what makes her more likeable, she's a person beyond Jim. Barbara is a hot mess, and both Jim and Montoya are better off without her. (I'm a few episodes behind, so I'm not completely sure what's up with that.)

As for an earlier comment bringing Batman's relationships in as an example of how this is just the way comic relationships are: Batman is a notoriously emotionally stunted individual. He is pretty much supposed to be an example of what not to do in matters of the heart. Vicki Vale was the closest thing to a well balanced love interest he had, beyond that Selena is messed up as hell and Talia is mostly evil (which is why Batman usually doesn't actually pursue those romantic possibilities, at least in the older stories, I don't read new 52. He only really engaged Catwoman after she turned full hero.)

 

[Seb]

Yes

It's a constant Flash fact. A speedster's best friend/significant other/soul mate is what grounds them.

That was one thing in Flashpoint (EDIT: I mean Rebirth, my bad) that annoyed me. They made it seem like romantic love was superior to other kinds of love, in that Barry and Wally could escape the Speed Force because they had Iris and Linda, but Max and Johnny couldn't use their fatherly attachments to Bart and Jessie to pull themselves out. I don't know much about Johnny and Jessie, but Max and Bart loved each other a lot, yet because Max lacked a romantic connection he was trapped?

That tends to be my least favourite portrayal of love in shows, where romantic love is painted as the greatest form of love. Seriously? Ask any parent who they would choose if they had to, their spouse or their child, 99.999999% of them will choose the child. (Admittedly that is something that occasionally gets done right, and I really appreciate it when that happens.)

 

[Verick808]

I personally feel a love I interest can just be a love interest. They don't have to help save the world or stop the villain. They can have their own interest and careers that don't necessarily serve the main characters needs.

 

[Tempest]

But they're not foster siblings. Joe was just Barry's legal guardian which is not the same thing as foster father. Barry's also had those feelings for her since he was a kid living with his folks. It's not something that developed while he was living with her.

Having Barry lurve after her for his entire life does not make his feelings for her less creepy. It makes it more creepy. It's even weirder that she never had a clue about it until Barry confessed it. And she didn't know she had feelings for him until he confessed to her?

We're talking nearly twenty years of pining that went unnoticed by the female lead. And no one finds that a little disturbing besides me?

Let me set the record straight: I love Barry, but I find his behavior around Iris to be inappropriate and downright unsettling at times. It's not just about me booing Iris and disliking her because she's the main love interest. I don't ship Barry/Iris because I don't like how it makes either of them behave.

 

[Slade W]

Very good episode. I liked how Iris helped Barry overcome his fear and gave him the will to fight and a reason to not give up against Grodd.

 

[gugumugats]

That was one thing in Flashpoint that annoyed me. They made it seem like romantic love was superior to other kinds of love, in that Barry and Wally could escape the Speed Force because they had Iris and Linda, but Max and Johnny couldn't use their fatherly attachments to Bart and Jessie to pull themselves out. I don't know much about Johnny and Jessie, but Max and Bart loved each other a lot, yet because Max lacked a romantic connection he was trapped?

That tends to be my least favourite portrayal of love in shows, where romantic love is painted as the greatest form of love. Seriously? Ask any parent who they would choose if they had to, their spouse or their child, 99.999999% of them will choose the child. (Admittedly that is something that occasionally gets done right, and I really appreciate it when that happens.)

I don't remember that in Flashpoint and I thought Max did escape the Speed Force in Flash:rebirth using Impulse as a focal point.

 

[KillerMcQueen]

Geez, we get a kick-arse Grodd episode and all people can do is complain about Barry/Iris and make it into a bigger problem than it is.

 

[Frodo]

I so agree with this. I think the starkest difference is between the Spiderman movies. MJ was basically just an ornament for Peter to pine over, she was beautiful, Peter was smarter, stronger, funnier, everything-er. As much as ASM2 annoyed me, throughout those two movies Gwen was smarter than Peter, she was funny, she got in the way because not only was she trying to help, she was actually succeeding at helping because she was a better scientist than Peter. The creepy way both relationships are started notwithstanding, Gwen is pretty much an example of a lead/love interest. Being a love interest is a trait of her character, not its defining characteristic.

I think that with Leslie being a fellow crime-fighter (albeit in a different way) is what makes her more likeable, she's a person beyond Jim. Barbara is a hot mess, and both Jim and Montoya are better off without her. (I'm a few episodes behind, so I'm not completely sure what's up with that.)

As for an earlier comment bringing Batman's relationships in as an example of how this is just the way comic relationships are: Batman is a notoriously emotionally stunted individual. He is pretty much supposed to be an example of what not to do in matters of the heart. Vicki Vale was the closest thing to a well balanced love interest he had, beyond that Selena is messed up as hell and Talia is mostly evil (which is why Batman usually doesn't actually pursue those romantic possibilities, at least in the older stories, I don't read new 52. He only really engaged Catwoman after she turned full hero.)

Totally agree. ASM Gwen was written quite well despite the flaws of the films she was in. I'd put Pepper Potts in that category as well. I'd say the X Men films are probably alot better than most with their female characters as well because they too aren't defined by being the love interests. I'd even say characters like Rachel Dawes in the Nolan films, and Thea and Moira Queen were written as independent women's who had lives that didn't revolve around the male protagonist(s).

That's why I'm taken aback when so many defend how Iris is written on the grounds that she's somehow a break from how female characters have been written in the past , and that the writers are somehow doing her character good service . If anything, I've seen the reaction to the Iris from non comic book fans and critics to be that of shock and disbelief at how they have portrayed her character.

 

[BLACKVULCAN]

yeah i really could care less about the Iris/ barry "days of our lives" stuff( for that matter the Felicity/ Ollie stuff!) there was GRODD!! FREAKING GRODD!! I never thought i would see a SUPER INTELLIGENT SUPER APE IN LIVE ACTION EVER!! AND CONTROLLING EILING!!That %^& was FREAKING COOL!!( and yeah! the only thing i didnt dig was calling reveres flash "father!" GRODD needs to hate all humans equally! and eat their eye sockets!) but i was willing to let that slide.... its GRODD!!!

hehe sorry i was excited...okay! back to our regular schedule of sibling/ cousins/ superhero love! wasnt that on jerry springer once...

 

[king666]

Every non-costumed female character in Flash(and Arrow) needs to be written off the show. Their only purpose is to fuel that mandatory CW drama crapfest.

Anyways, Grodd was awesome! I'm glad Flash is no match for him yet.

No, I love Caitlin.

 

[gugumugats]

I don't get the complaints about Iris in this episode. I actually thought this was Iris at the series' best compared to what we've seen.

Other than the motivational speech near the climax, it was Iris's blogging work (sigh) that gave them their initial lead in finding Grodd. If anything, that's indicative of her having some sort of life outside of just being the love interest or damsel in distress.

 

[CaptainWagner]

yeah i really could care less about the Iris/ barry "days of our lives" stuff( for that matter the Felicity/ Ollie stuff!) there was GRODD!! FREAKING GRODD!! I never thought i would see a SUPER INTELLIGENT SUPER APE IN LIVE ACTION EVER!! AND CONTROLLING EILING!!That %^& was FREAKING COOL!!( and yeah! the only thing i didnt dig was calling reveres flash "father!" GRODD needs to hate all humans equally! and eat their eye sockets!) but i was willing to let that slide.... its GRODD!!!

hehe sorry i was excited...okay! back to our regular schedule of sibling/ cousins/ superhero love! wasnt that on jerry springer once...

This man knows what's really important! t:


But seriously, we get a whole episode dedicated to Grodd, it is suitably amazing, and all anyone wants to talk about is whether or not it's creepy and/or wrong for Barry and Iris to be in love?

 

[Seb]

I don't remember that in Flashpoint and I thought Max did escape the Speed Force in Flash:rebirth using Impulse as a focal point.

Barry and Wally basically dragged him out, he couldn't have done it on his own. (I read it a week or so ago, so it's a lot fresher in my mind than to most people)

EDTI: I'm an idiot. I meant Rebirth, not Flashpoint. I haven't even read Flashpoint (though I have watched the animated of it).

 

[Seb]

This man knows what's really important! t:


But seriously, we get a whole episode dedicated to Grodd, it is suitably amazing, and all anyone wants to talk about is whether or not it's creepy and/or wrong for Barry and Iris to be in love?

I think it's because that's a discussion. We disagree on Iris, everyone agrees that Grodd was awesome, so we say Grodd was awesome, everyone nods and says yep, Grodd was awesome. There's not much more to say.

What we can discuss is Iris, and more interestingly, though not as argument inducing, what's Wells up to, how will he succeed, how will he be stopped, how does he plan to get home, etc.?

 

[Harley2004]

No, I love Caitlin.

She never disappoints.

 

[Seb]

I don't get the complaints about Iris in this episode. I actually thought this was Iris at the series' best compared to what we've seen.

Other than the motivational speech near the climax, it was Iris's blogging work (sigh) that gave them their initial lead in finding Grodd. If anything, that's indicative of her having some sort of life outside of just being the love interest or damsel in distress.

This is completely true. Iris started improving as soon as we were shown her job at the news station more, and even more now that she is in on the secret. Being oblivious was the must hurtful thing to her character, since she was acting on what she knew while we all knew more than her, so her behaviour seemed extra dumb.

It was nice that she could contribute for once, because even when she does have a life of her own that is separate from the main story, it makes her more rounded, but distracts from the main story and in a time-limited format like TV, we can't help but notice that it's taking time away from developing villains or simplifying conflicts. Now Iris doesn't have to equal B-Story, she can actually advance the main plot.

 

[Seb]

yeah i really could care less about the Iris/ barry "days of our lives" stuff( for that matter the Felicity/ Ollie stuff!) there was GRODD!! FREAKING GRODD!! I never thought i would see a SUPER INTELLIGENT SUPER APE IN LIVE ACTION EVER!! AND CONTROLLING EILING!!That %^& was FREAKING COOL!!( and yeah! the only thing i didnt dig was calling reveres flash "father!" GRODD needs to hate all humans equally! and eat their eye sockets!) but i was willing to let that slide.... its GRODD!!!

hehe sorry i was excited...okay! back to our regular schedule of sibling/ cousins/ superhero love! wasnt that on jerry springer once...

Given how Grodd reacts to 'Father', I'd quite like to see Caitlin, AKA 'Mother', be a balancing point that helps remove Grodd as a factor in the Wells vs. Team Flash battle.

 

[Rowen]

I think Wells in this episode was the best the whole season. That badass and cocky attitude with 'I'm a genius' was amazing. Not sure how much of Eddie being a failure is true though, but it does suck to be Eddie and knowing that Iris will marry Barry. Only thing I am sad about is that, no matter how good Wells is as RF, I think I will miss his presence in Star Labs as a mentor to the team. Its like a father figure left the show.



Looked liked the pipeline in Star Labs. How does that relate to Wells going back though, we need to wait for the answers.

I agree I'm going to miss wells to. He was like ,The bread and butter of the show. This show won't be the same with out him.

 

[CaptainWagner]

I think it's because that's a discussion. We disagree on Iris, everyone agrees that Grodd was awesome, so we say Grodd was awesome, everyone nods and says yep, Grodd was awesome. There's not much more to say.

What we can discuss is Iris, and more interestingly, though not as argument inducing, what's Wells up to, how will he succeed, how will he be stopped, how does he plan to get home, etc.?

That is a good point.