The Guns thread - Part 1

[Hotwire]

Let me reinforce something: Dennis Alexander, who is Seaside City's mayor pro tem and a reserve officer with the Sand City Police Department, was teaching a lesson at Seaside High School in Seaside, California when he pointed his gun into the ceiling and accidentally fired it, said Abdul Pridgen, the city's police chief.

Yes, this guy was only a reserve officer but I'm going out on a limb and assuming even a reserve officer has had fire arms training and experience. And he still managed to fire off his gun in a classroomwith children in it.

And this isn't even the first time. "I'm the only one in this room, professional enough that I know of, to carry this glock 40." Promptly shoots himself.

[YT]QNa5n2I_DUw[/YT]

Yeah.

 

[STINGRAY]

RE; "
Originally Posted by STINGRAY
Problem is, there is always going to be ANOTHER "dumb****", there is never just "one".

So by that illogic, just cause we will always have some dumb ****s who drive drunk, or high, or distracted while texting, lets do away with the laws against it..

--HA ! ...It`s so cute how you try to twist the words and meaning of others` posts to place your own spin, then attack the very spin you yourself imparted...even to the point of employing a non-sequitur metaphor.
Allow me to clarify the point for you--since it obviously has eluded you.

Placing still more guns in schools is only going to generate greater potentiality for human error--such as we have just seen demonstrated.

Care to argue against the propensity for human error?

It is hardly 'illogic' to acknowledge that people make mistakes.
Observation proves that they do.

Arming teachers with still more guns in a close environment wherein close-packed crowds are common is asking for a problem, as we have just seen demonstrated.

The equation goes like this :
More People Packing Guns + Crowds Of Students In Confined Spaces = Greater Potential For Accidental Shootings.

That in no way equates to some farcical elimination of traffic and drug laws that you conjured up as a weak counterpoint attempt. That is such a bizarre leap on your part..I am amazed you could come up with nothing more worth-while than a puerile fantasy example.
Further...
Point Of Fact: I have said absolutely NOTHING against having armed guards in schools. I defy you to find one post of mine wherein I stated I was against armed guards.
Point Of Fact: Armed Teachers are NOT Security Professionals.

Armed Teachers...? BWA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HAAA!
The fantasy that arming teachers is any sort of solution is just that--FANTASY!
But, hey...Let`s shove reality rudely to the side for a moment and examine that fantasy....

First; the concept envisions ideally; an ex-military or ex-police-turned-teacher who is already firearms-familiar...While I`m sure that there are those who had a military/police background and for some reason chose to downgrade to a teacher salary, I hardly think that this individual can be counted upon to exist in every school... EVERYWHERE.

Okay, so now we train a 'Volunteer' Armed Teacher...Seriously?

Straight Fact; many people, no matter how well they may train, no matter how earnest they may be, simply Are. Not. Killers.

Viet Nam proved that many well-trained and well-armed soldiers chose to fire over the heads of the enemy...Because at heart, they were not killers. (Thankfully) It takes a certain mindset to be a killer.

PROBLEM; No one can be sure IF they can pull a trigger on another human being...until they have to do it. That`s an awful weight to lay upon a Volunteer Armed Teacher.

But... Fantasy, remember?
So we have our valiant, Trained Volunteer Armed Teacher...setting aside, of course how all this training is paid for, and who pays for the guns,etc...... OOPS!
The Guns...We have to ARM this teacher!
How should the Volunteer Armed Teacher be armed?
Do they get an AR-15 to meet the general trend level of threat on it`s own terms? Do they walk about with it slung over their shoulder? (Hhhmmm...visions of Mrs Shoaf, my 60-yr-old HS Social Studies teacher strutting about like Rambo just don`t seem right).

Maybe a gun rack with lock in the classroom? Naaah...Then ya gotta worry about the gun being stolen....
A handgun would high-probability be the go-to 'solution'...
(remember; Fantasy)..

Well, if you have a handgun-armed teacher going after an AR-15 armed shooter, they better get real close, real fast before they shoot or they are going to be real ineffective, potentially just adding to the body count and giving the shooter another weapon option in the process.

See? More problems created, than solutions imparted.

..And the potential for ACCIDENTAL DISCHARGE of weapons multiplied exponentially.

Frankly I think you are still smarting from not being able to dismiss me as an uninformed, closed-mind as you tried before.

I`m Not Anti-Gun...I`m Anti-STUPIDITY-With-Guns.

 

[LTuser]

And if that dumba** had just been an idiot in your child's classroom and gotten your kid shot, you're still cool with arming dumba**es and putting them in classrooms?

This is a simple yes or no question. Please keep your response to a single word answer.

Yes. Just like 'cause one dumb kid decided to climb on a dresser colapsing it on himself and his brother, doesn't mean I won't have that same dresser at home..

Then again, i don't HAVE any kids..

And this isn't even the first time. "I'm the only one in this room, professional enough that I know of, to carry this glock 40." Promptly shoots himself.

[YT]QNa5n2I_DUw[/YT]

I wouldn't doubt its not the only one, and neither will it be the last one. Hell, during my 2nd tour of duty in Bahrain ONE OF OUR RANGE Instructors shot into the roof of the trailer we used as an indoor range.. LOST HIS RANGE license right then and there.
Doesn't mean, cause HE was an idiot, we should strip everyone, so no one can be an idiot.

Care to argue against the propensity for human error?

It is hardly 'illogic' to acknowledge that people make mistakes.
Observation proves that they do.

Then since we will aways have stupid people doing stupid ****, lets ban cars (cause of all the stupid people who text and drive/drink and drive). Lets ban phones cause of all the stupid people who were too busy paying attention to their PHONES screen and walked out into traffic..

YOU DON'T (or should't) Restrict stuff from the majority of people, just cause SOME ARE STUPID with it...

 

[STINGRAY]

Then again, i don't HAVE any kids..

...Something for which, we can all be thankful.

But it does explain your cavalier attitude towards placing other people`s children in jeopardy by embracing a farcical idea such as putting more guns into schools...in order to stop gun violence in schools.

Trained professionals are one thing.... Arming some well-meaning social studies teacher after a few range hours and imagining them to be competent in a crisis is another.

That would be just plain stupid.

As for this rant...

...since we will aways have stupid people doing stupid ****, lets ban cars (cause of all the stupid people who text and drive/drink and drive). Lets ban phones cause of all the stupid people who were too busy paying attention to their PHONES screen and walked out into traffic..

...Quite correct ! We do however, have traffic laws that are enforced, and try to teach our children to obey the laws for their own safety, just as drivers are expected to obey the speed limit, and not drink & drive...

When those laws fail, we do not hand the drunk MORE alcohol and a faster car, or ignore the need for a better marked pedestrian crossing or a stop light....because "the majority of people" are not guilty of such abuses.

Kids are being KILLED IN SCHOOL. Handing out more guns to people who may NEVER attain a combat-capable shooting skill, is going to lead to a greater chance for accidents, not greater security in case of a school shooter.

Arming teachers--against what is still a highly-unlikely eventuality given the number of schools across the nation--will not remove that danger anywhere--
But it will create the opportunity for yet a new danger....EVERYWHERE at once!

RE;

...
YOU DON'T (or should't) Restrict stuff from the majority of people, just cause SOME ARE STUPID with it...

That`s ridiculous. Following that line of ...'reasoning'...NO weapon should be illegal to own, no drug should be illegal because, by comparison with the size of the populace, only a very small percentage are abusers of drugs or weapons or are criminals.

Howz it feel for someone to throw your own blatant BS fantasy argument back at you?

 

[BrollySupersj]

You can always count on Fox News to be awful.

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/school-walkout-fox-news-gun-control-122025402.html

 

[STINGRAY]

You can always count on Fox News to be awful.

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/school-walkout-fox-news-gun-control-122025402.html

RE; "Carlson continues to push the idea that the Marjory Stoneman Douglas students who’ve spearheaded this newly energized gun-control movement are too young, too immature, too stupid to do their own thinking on the matter."

.....Tucker Carlson.... That Over-Fed Obnoxious Talking Head....

I wish that someone would make the point to him that many of these ' young kids' are old enough to be expected to fight for their country, going off to risk their lives while he sits on his fat ass, talking crap.

What can you expect from a nit who thinks of Climate Change;

" Whether human activities contribute to climate change is "unknowable".

 

[Teelie]

You have to be desperate when you take Carlson's angle. So does he also think every single adult who happens to agree with those teenagers is also immature and too young or stupid to do their own thinking? Because those kids aren't exactly alone in believing we need better gun regulation.

 

[LTuser]

...Something for which, we can all be thankful.

Exactly what's that supposed to mean?

...Quite correct ! We do however, have traffic laws that are enforced, and try to teach our children to obey the laws for their own safety, just as drivers are expected to obey the speed limit, and not drink & drive...

Not enough enforcement is going on though. How many times have we heard of someone arrested for their DOZENTH DUI or the like??

You have to be desperate when you take Carlson's angle. So does he also think every single adult who happens to agree with those teenagers is also immature and too young or stupid to do their own thinking? Because those kids aren't exactly alone in believing we need better gun regulation.

I do think tucker's taken it too far. BUT when i read stories of even ELEMENTARY kids being taken out by teachers, yesterday, to wave banners around saying things like "HEY NRA when you gonna stop killing us kids", how can anyone say THOSE 5-7 yr olds know what they are doing?

 

[Hotwire]

Yes. Just like 'cause one dumb kid decided to climb on a dresser colapsing it on himself and his brother, doesn't mean I won't have that same dresser at home..

Then again, i don't HAVE any kids..

Well, it's more than a yes or no but, I'll take it. Even though you still deflect away from the issue with frivolous comparisons.

Let me ask you another. Why are you willing to put MY 10yo daughter at risk of being accidentally shot by her teacher?

 

[Aximili86]

I guess he's sort of got a point on the age thing. We don't defer any political power to minors under any other circumstance. *Shrugs*

Tucker's a d*ck, not really sure the general point he's getting at here is all that outlandish though.

 

[STINGRAY]

...when i read stories of even ELEMENTARY kids being taken out by teachers, yesterday, to wave banners around saying things like "HEY NRA when you gonna stop killing us kids", how can anyone say THOSE 5-7 yr olds know what they are doing?

Even if they are not fully cognizant, or even mature enough to truly care, does their presence invalidate the point ?
The vast majority of those who are protesting are certainly old enough to have a grasp ...and a voice.

Do Elementary students being involved invalidate everyone else`s viewpoint?

If so, then you are making a decision that effects MANY due to the actions of A FEW....

And you have-- several times--stated that doing that was WRONG.

 

[Teelie]

I do think tucker's taken it too far. BUT when i read stories of even ELEMENTARY kids being taken out by teachers, yesterday, to wave banners around saying things like "HEY NRA when you gonna stop killing us kids", how can anyone say THOSE 5-7 yr olds know what they are doing?

Except he is mainly referring to the teenage survivors of a school shooting... and has been since the beginning that they are incapable of being intelligent, mature or informed despite some of them almost certainly being at least 18 and therefore legally an adult and the rest not far behind. A few months difference in age is not some chasm of intellectual or maturity deficit like he's claiming.

 

[Aximili86]

I think what he's (admittedly really inelegantly) trying to get at is, say a numerous group of very-vocal pro-NRA/pro-life/conservative whatever students across multiple cities were planning some big protest day, no way in hell would public school teachers be this lenient about them missing class time, or local governments be paying to bus them around to said events.

Which, yeah, he's an a$$hole in broad terms, but he's not wrong on that. There's a pretty clear discrepancy here.

These kids get a say, so long as it's the right say according to their teachers and local representatives.

 

[Sithborg]

And quite a few school administrations have tried to shut down these protests.

 

[Aximili86]

If it's happening on school time or grounds, maybe they even should.

These kids have every right to protest, but maybe this should be happening on weekends or something. When I was in school there were plenty of student demonstrations against the Iraq war - they weren't sanctioned by teachers with no consequences for doing it during class hours, though, and politicians sure as **** weren't actively bussing kids out to them.

 

[Zarex]

I think what he's (admittedly really inelegantly) trying to get at is, say a numerous group of very-vocal pro-NRA/pro-life/conservative whatever students across multiple cities were planning some big protest day, no way in hell would public school teachers be this lenient about them missing class time, or local governments be paying to bus them around to said events.

Now that depends on where in the country the protest is taking place, doesn't it?

 

[Sithborg]

Ahh, the ol' "protest only when it is convenient to me". Or, where I don't see it.

 

[Aximili86]

It's not about what's convenient. Hell, if the kids want to protest during school hours (on campus during class time), that's cool by me.

The issue is that in a public school, it probably shouldn't be encouraged or actively/logistically supported by teachers or local government. Protest all you want, but if you believe in it sufficiently you'll be willing to protest in the face of (and accepting) whatever consequences (grades, discipline, whatever) are coming your way. There shouldn't be an active policy of "just let 'em miss school, because I see it as a good cause" from teachers or principals.

Again, highschool protests are hardly some new thing. We had some pretty major ones against Bush in the early 2000s. Teachers weren't all "you're so brave! ditching class? well, I guess it's for a good cause, I can turn a blind eye to it" over it though. And no way would local government have been funding shuttle buses to protest venues. Conversely, you're only okay with this because you agree with it. This Carlson *****e is pretty much right on the point that if this were some anti-abortion thing in place of the gun control thing, you'd all be up in arms losing your minds over schools "encouraging" it or whatever.

 

[STINGRAY]

Tucker's a d*ck, not really sure the general point he's getting at here is all that outlandish though.

--Actually, Carlson & others are quite wrong both in position and in manner.

I hear a lot of "The Democrats are doing this"..."The Liberals are behind that..."

It doesn`t matter WHO is protesting.... That`s not the point.
The protesting is not the problem. School Shootings are.

And, as usual... Does anything get accomplished about the situation?

NO.

 

[STINGRAY]

Anybody noticing the direction The Talking Media Heads are going now?

They are attempting to marginalize, if not dismiss entirely the protests, by ignoring THE MESSAGE and politicizing THE QUESTION.
According to them, it`s Democrats -vs-Republicans time ....yet again.

The Liberals are staging an uprising, and Right-Thinking Conservatives have to band together !
This is what they say it is all about, all these protests.....

BS !

This is about School Safety and the security of American Citizens on the whole.
Without assault rifles and oh-so-fun-and-oh-so-LETHAL gimmicks such as 'Bump Stocks' on the market, DOZENS of people would be alive today, be they children in schools, people praying in church, or in a crowd attending a concert.

I believe strongly in The Right to own Guns...
But not the Right to own ALL Guns.
We may not be able to prevent every disgruntled nut-bar from going into a homicidal frenzy, but we can certainly lessen the body count by removing extreme firepower options from being so readily available.

Enough is enough.

This should NOT be yet another BS excuse to for a 'Republicans-vs-Democrats' GAME...
And that is what our political system has devolved into; A #@$$$// FRACKING GAME!
Republicans-v-Democrats and the constituency of each party wants 'Their Team' to win...only, in reality NOBODY WINS !

 

[Hotwire]

If it's happening on school time or grounds, maybe they even should.

These kids have every right to protest, but maybe this should be happening on weekends or something. When I was in school there were plenty of student demonstrations against the Iraq war - they weren't sanctioned by teachers with no consequences for doing it during class hours, though, and politicians sure as **** weren't actively bussing kids out to them.

Protests are not meant to be convenient. If a protest doesn't disrupt anything, it's going to be ignored.

 

[Aximili86]

And that's all cool.

But the students should be accepting consequences over it - the school's going to give you detention for ditching class, or being unwilling to re-schedule classwork or exams/assignments etc, you accept that and protest anyway. Take the heat for it, go protest all the same.

Pretty sure nobody's saying these students shouldn't be protesting. Just that a public school probably shouldn't be going out of their way to accomodate it, and that local authorities shouldn't be actively encouraging it.

 

[LTuser]

Let me ask you another. Why are you willing to put MY 10yo daughter at risk of being accidentally shot by her teacher?

You assume all teachers would stupidly handle their firearms.. Where as i give them the benefit of the doubt, till proven otherwise..

Even if they are not fully cognizant, or even mature enough to truly care, does their presence invalidate the point ?
The vast majority of those who are protesting are certainly old enough to have a grasp ...and a voice.

True, it doesn't invalidate everyone else's view. BUT when i see stories where a teacher got suspended for merely asking the students "Would they see it as a double standard if the kids wanted to do a "pro-life rally", and is now on admin leave cause of it.

http://insider.foxnews.com/2018/03/...stioning-gun-control-walkout-abortion-protest

OR a kid in Ohio gets a 1 day suspension, cause Rather than wanting to join either the ANTI gun rally, or the other 'pro gun folk, he wanted to just sit in class and do his class work.

It makes it seem that the kids are ONLY being used to push one side of the agenda (the left's anti-gun agenda). BUT anyone even suggesting pushing a right wing agenda, gets punished for it..

These kids get a say, so long as it's the right say according to their teachers and local representatives.

And as i asked on another site.. Every time as a kid, I wanted to go on some school supported trip, i had to get parental permission. You can't tell me all the parents of all of these kids were ok with this..

 

[Hotwire]

You assume all teachers would stupidly handle their firearms.. Where as i give them the benefit of the doubt, till proven otherwise..

It's more about putting her at risk for an accidental gunshot injury. Accidents happen and I don't want her at risk of that!

 

[Hotwire]

And that's all cool.

But the students should be accepting consequences over it - the school's going to give you detention for ditching class, or being unwilling to re-schedule classwork or exams/assignments etc, you accept that and protest anyway. Take the heat for it, go protest all the same.

Pretty sure nobody's saying these students shouldn't be protesting. Just that a public school probably shouldn't be going out of their way to accomodate it, and that local authorities shouldn't be actively encouraging it.

Yeah. They're are plenty saying these kinds shouldn't be protesting and more saying they should be ignored.