The Guns thread - Part 1

[DJ Kornphlake]

You assume all teachers would stupidly handle their firearms.. Where as i give them the benefit of the doubt, till proven otherwise..

Even one teacher mishandling their firearm in school is one too many. And that has already happened. Twice.

 

[Kelly]

You assume all teachers would stupidly handle their firearms.. Where as i give them the benefit of the doubt, till proven otherwise..

The problem is, that proof might come in a situation that no matter how many courses they go through, they are not law enforcement officers, they do not deal with situations even close to the magnitude of a situation that might prove they are capable. As a teacher, I would much rather come up with other ways to keep my students safe than my next door neighbor carrying a gun in the classroom.

#1. So, is that teacher next door going to leave his/her classroom full of kids in order to confront the shooter because they have a gun? Or, are we supposed to hope and pray that they are on their conference? And God forbid that the school is on block scheduling like mine and the teacher only gets a conference every other day....school districts that are far away from any type of law enforcement getting to them in the case of a shooter situation, yes I would either make sure that I have armed off duty officers (like my school) at each school, and possibly administration armed if needed. But no more than 2 per campus, and certainly not teachers who's job should be to stay with their students and follow the protocol of the school until that protocol no longer can be in place, as in their room is breeched....in my room, we have a protocol for that and each of my classes, and each of my students know what they are to do. It does not include me having a gun.
#2. Exactly what kind of training, how often, will this teacher go through in order to use their firearm in a situation that they are not ready for because they do not have the mindset of a police officer on the job every day....they would have the mindset of that rookie police officer that doesn't have back up in a partner....

Seriously, you will wait until they prove you wrong....that is insane.

True, it doesn't invalidate everyone else's view. BUT when i see stories where a teacher got suspended for merely asking the students "Would they see it as a double standard if the kids wanted to do a "pro-life rally", and is now on admin leave cause of it.

http://insider.foxnews.com/2018/03/...stioning-gun-control-walkout-abortion-protest

1. Was this discussion a part of her stated lesson plan? What standards is she basing the lesson on?
2. She began a dialogue and stated herself that her students knew little about the walk out and told them to research and it discuss it with their parents, and yet she continued the discussion with that part of the component not being completed.
3. In order to investigate what happened, sometimes students and teachers are suspended in order to not complicate the investigation. All you heard was her side of the story. One lesson a teacher must learn very early on is that a student's perception of what you say and do, is their truth, whether it was meant to be the way the perceived it or not. Therefore as an educator we must be constantly diligent to make sure that we do not place our bias into the lesson. We did not hear how the discussion was presented, we did not hear her explanation, we did not hear the student's replies, we really know absolutely nothing.....except that she is on Fox News which to me, says a lot.

OR a kid in Ohio gets a 1 day suspension, cause Rather than wanting to join either the ANTI gun rally, or the other 'pro gun folk, he wanted to just sit in class and do his class work.

You forgot this part.... “I can say that our students were given two options: one, attend the gathering or two, have a study hall,” Stacie Raterman, the district spokeswoman, said. “We are responsible for the safety of our students; we can’t allow students to be unsupervised. The study hour was our way of making sure our students were safe and supervised.” Was a 1 day suspension harsh? maybe....but with most school discipline plans this was probably a Level 3 which sometimes comes with automatic days suspended. It would be a Level 3 in my district. Not following the directive of a school administrator either written, verbal or both.

It makes it seem that the kids are ONLY being used to push one side of the agenda (the left's anti-gun agenda). BUT anyone even suggesting pushing a right wing agenda, gets punished for it.

In your opinion....and I don't necessarily see these walk outs as a left wing agenda. So the very fact that you place these opinions at the ends of the political spectrum, shows your bias.

And as i asked on another site.. Every time as a kid, I wanted to go on some school supported trip, i had to get parental permission. You can't tell me all the parents of all of these kids were ok with this..

As will happen at my school, I am sure that 1 or several notices home through letters, all calls, website, etc.... would/will be given and if the parents have a problem with their child participating there is an alternative. However, it is up to the parent to speak with their child and choose what they want to do....in the case in Ohio, the study hall, or what the school had planned. There is no school anywhere that is going to willingly leave a student unsupervised in a classroom. THAT would actually be the problem on the part of the school, not giving an alternative of study hall. And please don't insult people's intelligence, the senior was making a political statement, passive-aggressive, passive, aggressive, silent, non-participation, all of those are a statement....going and using the time to do homework, etc....would have simply been continuing his school day. He was making a political statement. And the fact that you go on to state that it seems that suggesting a right wing agenda brings punishment, shows that you see what he was doing as a political choice as well.

 

[Donner]

https://www.snopes.com/news/2018/03...test/?utm_source=socialflow&utm_medium=social

Seriously, this is allowed?

So ****ed up.

 

[LTuser]

It's more about putting her at risk for an accidental gunshot injury. Accidents happen and I don't want her at risk of that!

Most parents would say the same, but fear of an accident is not enough of a reason to deny someone their lawful right to own something.

The problem is, that proof might come in a situation that no matter how many courses they go through, they are not law enforcement officers, they do not deal with situations even close to the magnitude of a situation that might prove they are capable. As a teacher, I would much rather come up with other ways to keep my students safe than my next door neighbor carrying a gun in the classroom.

Such as what? Barricading the door and hoping the bad guy with the gun, doesn't just shoot in?

#1. So, is that teacher next door going to leave his/her classroom full of kids in order to confront the shooter because they have a gun? Or, are we supposed to hope and pray that they are on their conference? And God forbid that the school is on block scheduling like mine and the teacher only gets a conference every other day..

Come again? What does being on a conference have to do with anything?
If they have a gun, AND they word of shots being fired (Via hearing it!) they arm up and stand by/near the door protecting those in their classroom.

#2. Exactly what kind of training, how often, will this teacher go through in order to use their firearm in a situation that they are not ready for because they do not have the mindset of a police officer on the job every day....they would have the mindset of that rookie police officer that doesn't have back up in a partner....

At least the same as cops get. BUT then again since we've seen cops who DID nothing, maybe we need more training period.

1. Was this discussion a part of her stated lesson plan? What standards is she basing the lesson on?
2. She began a dialogue and stated herself that her students knew little about the walk out and told them to research and it discuss it with their parents, and yet she continued the discussion with that part of the component not being completed.
3. In order to investigate what happened, sometimes students and teachers are suspended in order to not complicate the investigation. All you heard was her side of the story. One lesson a teacher must learn very early on is that a student's perception of what you say and do, is their truth, whether it was meant to be the way the perceived it or not. Therefore as an educator we must be constantly diligent to make sure that we do not place our bias into the lesson. We did not hear how the discussion was presented, we did not hear her explanation, we did not hear the student's replies, we really know absolutely nothing.....except that she is on Fox News which to me, says a lot.

From what i heard, it was not part of an actual class lesson plan. She just asked the students a question.
And as for #3, all we know is they suspended her, cause SOMEONE complained. No names, no actual proof of it (IE a letter from someone's mom/dad, or a phone call recording).
And why does "its on fox say a lot" Are you saying fox is fake news or something??

You forgot this part.... “I can say that our students were given two options: one, attend the gathering or two, have a study hall,” Stacie Raterman, the district spokeswoman, said. “We are responsible for the safety of our students; we can’t allow students to be unsupervised. The study hour was our way of making sure our students were safe and supervised.” Was a 1 day suspension harsh? maybe....but with most school discipline plans this was probably a Level 3 which sometimes comes with automatic days suspended. It would be a Level 3 in my district. Not following the directive of a school administrator either written, verbal or both.

But why were there ONLY those 2 options?? Why not let students stay in the classroom so they didn't seem to be political one way or the other?

In your opinion....and I don't necessarily see these walk outs as a left wing agenda. So the very fact that you place these opinions at the ends of the political spectrum, shows your bias.

I fully agree it shows my bias. BUT then so do these marches.. Anti gun ok, even asking if a pro-life - bad.. THAT TO ME also shows a willful bias from the teachers/schools. Especially when the teachers UNIONS barely even donate to anything republican, and have over (iirc) 97% of what they DO donate politically, going to democrats.. That certainly shows a MASSIVE overt bias.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I feel like for genuine discussion to be had, there are some truths that need to be agreed upon. And Fox News is what it is.

http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/tv/fox/

 

[Aximili86]

Bwaha, corporal punishment still existing in Arkansas schools is pretty hilarious. That really is crazy.

 

[Hotwire]

Most parents would say the same, but fear of an accident is not enough of a reason to deny someone their lawful right to own something.

You just moved the goal post. I never said a teacher couldn't own a gun. I said they shouldn't be armed in school around my kid. There's a difference.

Posts like this one are the reason people here have such a problem with you. You make your post, you get a rebuttal, you deflect their response by either twisting their words or, as I said, moving the goal post, to prevent them from completing the point they're making.

 

[Greens]

I feel like for genuine discussion to be had, there are some truths that need to be agreed upon. And Fox News is what it is.

http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/tv/fox/

Fox News is ****ing terrible, but I wish they had a file on some of the other channels. I checked CNN and MSNBC and they're empty.

 

[STINGRAY]

RE: "
Originally Posted by LTuser
You assume all teachers would stupidly handle their firearms.. Where as i give them the benefit of the doubt, till proven otherwise..

The problem is, that proof might come in a situation that no matter how many courses they go through, they are not law enforcement officers, they do not deal with situations even close to the magnitude of a situation that might prove they are capable.

Kelly, you may as well just pack-it-in on this argument.

I posted before to 'LTuser' about the fact that no teacher, no matter how earnest and noble-intentioned, can be counted upon to have even basic competence in a real crisis from a few hours of training on a shooting range.
Bottom Line; people just do not know IF they can actually shoot someone until they have to, and this ridiculous idea only creates an immediate general danger of tragic error EVERYWHERE to answer a potential for sporadic danger, ....which will still exist anyway.

LTuser is your basic Trump Administration type; ignoring anything that pokes embarrassing holes in their opinion. Engaging in a dialogue with LTuser is like trying to get a straight answer out of Sarah Huckabee Sanders or Steve Mnuchin, and the only 'facts' LTuser cares about are self-serving, self-generated "Alternative facts".

 

[LTuser]

Well, getting OFF the teacher subject for now, i saw this posted over on eccie..

https://www.theburningplatform.com/2018/03/16/some-murder-facts/

The US ranks #3 overall in murders via guns. BUT if you just took out 5 cities (ALL liberal controled), we'd shift down to 193 on the list..

 

[STINGRAY]

Well, getting OFF the teacher subject for now ...
The US ranks #3 overall in murders via guns. BUT if you just took out 5 cities (ALL liberal controled), we'd shift down to 193 on the list..

HA ! This is one of those instances where someone tries to support their POV with a reference...
BUT... The reference choice itself tells more about the type of person referencing it than it supports their POV.

So...You seriously think that the quotient of 'Liberals' in a city government equate to the seriousness of the crime rate...?

Let`s just set-aside ancillary minor elements such as population size, economy and other incidentals, right(wing) ?

That`s where you live, isn`t ? Cherry-picking facts to support your biased contentions, as you pour over contrived articles on Conservative websites for fresh ammunition to fire over 'here'? Deflecting from debate subjects when it gets too much for you to handle?

Deflection and cherry-picking are no way to convince people of anything.

 

[Kelly]

Most parents would say the same, but fear of an accident is not enough of a reason to deny someone their lawful right to own something.



Such as what? Barricading the door and hoping the bad guy with the gun, doesn't just shoot in?



Come again? What does being on a conference have to do with anything?
If they have a gun, AND they word of shots being fired (Via hearing it!) they arm up and stand by/near the door protecting those in their classroom.



At least the same as cops get. BUT then again since we've seen cops who DID nothing, maybe we need more training period.



From what i heard, it was not part of an actual class lesson plan. She just asked the students a question.
And as for #3, all we know is they suspended her, cause SOMEONE complained. No names, no actual proof of it (IE a letter from someone's mom/dad, or a phone call recording).
And why does "its on fox say a lot" Are you saying fox is fake news or something??



But why were there ONLY those 2 options?? Why not let students stay in the classroom so they didn't seem to be political one way or the other?



I fully agree it shows my bias. BUT then so do these marches.. Anti gun ok, even asking if a pro-life - bad.. THAT TO ME also shows a willful bias from the teachers/schools. Especially when the teachers UNIONS barely even donate to anything republican, and have over (iirc) 97% of what they DO donate politically, going to democrats.. That certainly shows a MASSIVE overt bias.

Replying to you is pointless because it is obvious that you have absolutely no idea of the inner workings of a school whatsoever. So, I will no longer waste my time with you.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Well, getting OFF the teacher subject for now, i saw this posted over on eccie..

https://www.theburningplatform.com/2018/03/16/some-murder-facts/

The US ranks #3 overall in murders via guns. BUT if you just took out 5 cities (ALL liberal controled), we'd shift down to 193 on the list..

Brilliant logic. You make it sound like people in those cities can't leave said cities and acquire guns. Also you realize that those guns aren't made in those cities, right?

It's going to be a lot easier to get a gun when Republicans ensure that 300 million remain in circulation and are poorly documented.

 

[Donner]

Well, getting OFF the teacher subject for now, i saw this posted over on eccie..

https://www.theburningplatform.com/2018/03/16/some-murder-facts/

The US ranks #3 overall in murders via guns. BUT if you just took out 5 cities (ALL liberal controled), we'd shift down to 193 on the list..

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/united-states-third-murders/

You suck at debating. Even the conservatives on this site think you're full of it.

 

[Mike5575]

What does everyone think of Gun control restraining orders? Five states have such laws in which a someone can appeal to the courts to have a close relative's gun rights temporarily rescinded. It of course allows for due process.

https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/02/gun-control-republicans-consider-grvo/

 

[Hotwire]

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/united-states-third-murders/

You suck at debating. Even the conservatives on this site think you're full of it.

Thank you for that!

 

[DJ_KiDDvIcIOUs]

What does everyone think of Gun control restraining orders? Five states have such laws in which a someone can appeal to the courts to have a close relative's gun rights temporarily rescinded. It of course allows for due process.

https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/02/gun-control-republicans-consider-grvo/

Its a start. I wouldn't be opposed to it and I know if I was ever acting erratically or became afflicted with some serious mental health issues I would hope my friends and family cared enough to do this.

My cousin struggled with depression and the whole family was aware of it. She committed suicide with the gun she kept in the home for self defense leaving behind two daughters as well as a lot of heartache for our family.

 

[LTuser]

HA ! This is one of those instances where someone tries to support their POV with a reference...
BUT... The reference choice itself tells more about the type of person referencing it than it supports their POV.

So...You seriously think that the quotient of 'Liberals' in a city government equate to the seriousness of the crime rate...?

it IMO Is telling that the 5 highest murder rate cities, are all ran by liberals, yes..

Brilliant logic. You make it sound like people in those cities can't leave said cities and acquire guns. Also you realize that those guns aren't made in those cities, right?

Where did i try implying that those in those cities can't leave? No i just said, it is striking that if we took those cities out of the mix, that our 'overall murder by gun tally would DROP US from #3 in the world down to 193.

What does everyone think of Gun control restraining orders? Five states have such laws in which a someone can appeal to the courts to have a close relative's gun rights temporarily rescinded. It of course allows for due process.

https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/02/gun-control-republicans-consider-grvo/

As long as the accused gets his or her day in court, i am somewhat ok with them. JUST SO long as once that TRO is over, they can get it back.
BUT i'd like to know. If say I lived in a house with my brother, his wife, their 3 kids and my own wife and kid (say they lived with me while saving up to get their own place).. AND I Say got one of thos TRO's against me. Does that mean my wife, kids, brother, his wife and kids also lose THEIR weapons "just so i can't just borrow/take one of theirs"??
If so, where is THEIR due process??

 

[Donner]

You completely ignored my post debunking your claim. Convenient.

 

[Kelly]

Guys lets keep it to the debate, keep the personal opinions of posters out of it. Give your opinions, thoughts and sources on the topic at hand.

 

[Teelie]

Bwaha, corporal punishment still existing in Arkansas schools is pretty hilarious. That really is crazy.

Clearly you misread Arkansas for some other state. It isn't crazy, it's probably understated they still think spanking a teenager is somehow effective discipline in school.

 

[LTuser]

Guys lets keep it to the debate, keep the personal opinions of posters out of it. Give your opinions, thoughts and sources on the topic at hand.

Humble apologies...

 

[DarthSkywalker]

This is the world we live in. Where so many worship guns and they teach kids they are how you solve your problems.

http://www.wtva.com/content/news/Teen-shot-in-head-by-9-year-old-in-Monroe-County-477207783.html

MONROE COUNTY, Miss. (WTVA) - A 9-year-old boy is accused of shooting and killing his 13-year-old sister in the head during an argument over a video game.

Sheriff Cecil Cantrell says deputies responded to the scene around 1 p.m. on Saturday.

There they learned the boy grabbed a gun when the teenage girl would not give up the video game controller. Sheriff Cantrell says the bullet went through the girl's brain.

Their mother was in another room feeding lunch to other kids when it happened. Sheriff Cantrell said they aren't sure how the boy was able to access the gun.

The girl was rushed to Le Bonheur's Children's Hospital where she later died from her injuries.

Sheriff Cantrell confirms the victim was Dijonae White. She was a student at Tupelo Middle School.

This case is under investigation. Sheriff Cantrell says he does not know what consequences the boy faces. He adds he has never had a case where a child shoots another child in that manner. We aren't sure if the boy is in custody or not.

 

[Greens]

We need to arm 13 year old girls!

 

[Aximili86]

Ehh, stuff like sport shooting with rifles I have no issue with 13 year olds doing, if properly supervised.

Apparently it's the fastest growing sport in a couple of states in Australia - not with AR-10s of course, likely just bolt-action stuff, but still. Nothing wrong with a 13 year old learning how to shoot, that was pretty much widespread in generations past and they never had the spree shooting crap we're dealing with now.