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The Israel Situation II

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There is no validity to that notion at all in this case. Israel has the ability to bomb the entire Gaza strip and its 1.8 million people to dust in like a few days, and they don't.

Israel values its international reputation and has thus not exterminated nor expelled the Palestinians.

What they do is they keep the Palestinians as weak as possible with the range that the international community allows them to operate within.
 
Kelly said:
Close to 6 million Jews had to die to get the word in the first place.

800,000 Tutsi had to die in Rwanda before Clinton called it genocide.

Hundreds of thousands of Southern Sudanese had to die in order for SOS Powell to state it was genocide in a UN speech.

Just throwing some numbers out there, in order for that word to officially be used, for some reason an enormous number of people have to die. :dry:

Well, yes, because that's what "genocide" means. Compare it to the term "mass murder", which also requires a lot of people to have been killed.

Within the legal definition that someone posted earlier, it seems that there is a requirement for either an intent to exterminate a people (in whole or in part), or for the people to have been exterminated (in whole or in part) as a result of a deliberate action or inaction. To me, it seems that Israel can legitimately be accused of genocide if it is revealed that the intended result of its action was to kill thousands of Palestinian civilians and remove them from Israel's borders; or if they manage to kill a very great number of Palestinians as an unintended consequence of deliberate action.

In the latter sense, it probably could be argued that Israel has committed genocide but, as you say, I don't think the scale of the killing is sufficient to calculate that the existence of the Palestinian people in Gaza was threatened.

I do think semantics are important in this matter. I am more comfortable with terms like "ethnic cleansing" or "massacre" being used.

Because Israel is defending itself...? People are confusing "lack of casualties" with "lack of trying". I don't understand how firing thousands of rockets at Israel (that admittedly cause few deaths) is being erased completely. It definitely doesn't justify how Israelis treat Palestinians but what would any nation state do? Which other nation state in the world has a defense system dedicated to dealing with missiles aimed at their civilian population?

I've never seen so much criticism of a country for defending its civilians. So if Israel drops the Iron Dome for a couple of days and gets their own death toll up to like 2,000 then it evens this out? :huh:

Obviously, it is a matter of proportionality. Most people who are a disinterested observers of this conflict would look at the tally of civilian casualties (85% of 1,875 Palestinians, 3 Israelis - source) and wonder whether the Israeli incursion was in fact "defensive" and whether it was justifiable if so.
 
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That wasn't me. Kelly edited my post. That's not cool at all.


I'm fixing it....

That was DEFINITELY an accident.

I have a few more buttons I can accidentally hit than you guys. :csad:
 
As far as me giving the numbers....how quickly people think someone is trying to justify genocide....

My reason for giving the numbers is very simple.

IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORD GENOCIDE....it has been the norm that there has been hundreds of thousands of deaths before anyone of stature ie: Secretary of State, President, UN etc....even use the word.

NOT TO SAY that they are correct, I am simply putting a realistic face on the fact that it may be a very long time before the UN, or other leaders call this genocide.

Again, I apologize Asteroid-Man I meant to QUOTE your post, NOT EDIT IT.
 
You also seem to have edited mine, but I can't see how :huh:
 
Who cares about those recent semantics?

Hundreds of Palestinian children have been slaughtered so why does Israel get to play the self-defense card with barely any civilian casualties?


I totally get what you are saying...but what would you have Israel do?

Simply sit under the Iron Dome, live in their underground bunkers, allow tunnels to continue to be built and used all around them?

What should they do?
 
That's a good talk, he's got a lot of first hand experience. Unfortunately the usual reaction from these kinds of things is just to create more blanket hate for Israel from anti-Israeli contingents.
I only intended to watch the first few minutes and ended up watching the whole thing.

I'm fixing it....

That was DEFINITELY an accident.

I have a few more buttons I can accidentally hit than you guys. :csad:

As far as me giving the numbers....how quickly people think someone is trying to justify genocide....

My reason for giving the numbers is very simple.

IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORD GENOCIDE....it has been the norm that there has been hundreds of thousands of deaths before anyone of stature ie: Secretary of State, President, UN etc....even use the word.

NOT TO SAY that they are correct, I am simply putting a realistic face on the fact that it may be a very long time before the UN, or other leaders call this genocide.

Again, I apologize Asteroid-Man I meant to QUOTE your post, NOT EDIT IT.
All good. Wasn't sure what you were playing at, but the thought of you meaning to do a quote reply did cross my mind. No idea what an admin screen looks like.

History has in fact shown us this sad reality, but I would hope to be on the ride side when a tyrannical force uses it's powers to subdue people due to pure hatred or money.

If you haven't watched that video, definitely do so!
 
Simply sit under the Iron Dome, live in their underground bunkers, allow tunnels to continue to be built and used all around them?

What should they do?

I would find better ways to target single persons then randomly dropping bombs everywhere.

All that being said not sure the US is the country to lecture people about randomly dropping bombs to get targets, leading to civilian casualties
 
I would find better ways to target single persons then randomly dropping bombs everywhere.

All that being said not sure the US is the country to lecture people about randomly dropping bombs to get targets, leading to civilian casualties

Are you talking about Israel? :huh:
 
I would find better ways to target single persons then randomly dropping bombs everywhere.

Britain did just that against IRA terrorists, and there was international criticism of their "shoot to kill" policy.
 
Because Israel is defending itself...? People are confusing "lack of casualties" with "lack of trying". I don't understand how firing thousands of rockets at Israel (that admittedly cause few deaths) is being erased completely. It definitely doesn't justify how Israelis treat Palestinians but what would any nation state do? Which other nation state in the world has a defense system dedicated to dealing with missiles aimed at their civilian population?

I've never seen so much criticism of a country for defending its civilians. So if Israel drops the Iron Dome for a couple of days and gets their own death toll up to like 2,000 then it evens this out? :huh:

Even more surprising is how people focus on the Israeli/Palestinian conflict and nothing else. Hundreds of Palestinian children die, worldwide news phenomenon. 2000+ Palestinians killed in Syria in their civil war, nobody cares. The rhetorical and explicit message it sends to everyone is: A Palestinian's life is only valuable when its at risk of being taken by an Israeli.
.

Some people care about Syrian human right violations and war crimes.

But the media and the world is focused on the Gaza strip right now.

Because Israel is defending itself...? People are confusing "lack of casualties" with "lack of trying". I don't understand how firing thousands of rockets at Israel (that admittedly cause few deaths) is being erased completely. It definitely doesn't justify how Israelis treat Palestinians but what would any nation state do? Which other nation state in the world has a defense system dedicated to dealing with missiles aimed at their civilian population?

I've never seen so much criticism of a country for defending its civilians. So if Israel drops the Iron Dome for a couple of days and gets their own death toll up to like 2,000 then it evens this out?

Well at some point the Israelis have to take responsibility for killing so many innocent people. Because ultimately these war crimes are another form of terrorism.

Clearly the medicine (Israeli offensive) is worse than the disease (Hamas rockets) if the medicine is killing hundreds of innocent people.
 
I totally get what you are saying...but what would you have Israel do?

Simply sit under the Iron Dome, live in their underground bunkers, allow tunnels to continue to be built and used all around them?

What should they do?

Do more to negotiate peace.

Right now Israel is being led by war-mongers making diplomacy and concessions impossible.
 
These isis animals need to be taken out
 
If the US was in Israel's position we would use drone strikes and ground forces. I'm willing to be we would have way less Civ deaths than Israel.
 
Well maybe it's not so "random" but they seem to not care much about any innocent bystanders in places they target

:huh: It's not random? For the most part they identify targets responsible in some way for the terror attacks. If Hamas fires rockets out of a nursery school or a clinic is Israel supposed to say "Ah gosh...well played Hamas, guess we'll leave it be"? Israel leaves pamphlets, voice messages and then uses a warning system to alert people who are going to be in the vicinity of missile attacks. In which other military conflict has that happened, where one side actually telegraphs its operational actions?

The casualties of Palestinian civilians is horrible, but put some of the blame on Hamas that routinely teach their population that martyrdom is desirable and that after advance warnings of which targets will be hit encourage their civilians to remain in the buildings.

Some people care about Syrian human right violations and war crimes.

But the media and the world is focused on the Gaza strip right now.

This is troubling to me for a couple of reasons. The first is that if there are other war crimes going on, some with higher casualties, why is this one getting preference?

And second, it also means that anybody who uses any argument based on the death toll are doing so to hide their real reasons for criticizing Israel. Because if number of lives lost was all anyone was concerned about the other conflicts mentioned would surely get more attention?

Well at some point the Israelis have to take responsibility for killing so many innocent people. Because ultimately these war crimes are another form of terrorism.

Clearly the medicine (Israeli offensive) is worse than the disease (Hamas rockets) if the medicine is killing hundreds of innocent people.

Again, I find that the emphasis is on completely the wrong party here. While I agree that Israel's methods are heavy handed and amount to war crimes, why is the well-being of Gazan civilians Israel's responsibility? I was under the impression the organization that was democratically elected to govern the region would be responsible for the safety of its citizens? As opposed to encouraging their citizens to engage in a holy war. If I'm not mistaken teaching your nursery school kids that Jews and Christians are pigs and monkeys taught to walk on their hind legs and are deserving of being murdered also falls under that genocide scales "dehumanization" section.

The disease here is Hamas attempting to kill as many Israelis as they can, again, failure to do so doesn't diminish the fact that the attempts are obvious. Again I'm perplexed as to why a weaker military antagonizing a stronger one and then running to the international community is somehow logical? In 2005 Israel completely withdrew from Gaza and left it under sole Palestinian control, and didn't go back in until their people were attacked. It's through initiating terrorist attacks on Israeli non-military targets that Hamas has made a military engagement necessary, again.

I'm confused as to why Israel is being held to higher standards in this conflict than any other nation state has been in the modern history of war. When I've heard the argument so many times I can only start believing it's to make Israel easier to condemn when they can't live up to these angelic expectations everybody expects them to adhere to while fighting against an organization that exists to kill as many Israelis as it can.

I'm not condoning how Israel is treating Palestinians, they deserve to be tried and punished for that. However, I do condone them engaging Hamas on a military level, although I don't agree with the methods and execution whatsoever. There is no nation state on earth, bar none, that wouldn't respond with force when its civilians are targeted. Even less so when they've set up a system that takes a fraction of their national budget to operate to protect their citizens, and then the attackers further try to circumvent that system.
 
If the US was in Israel's position we would use drone strikes and ground forces. I'm willing to be we would have way less Civ deaths than Israel.

I doubt it. The IDF is one of the best trained militaries in the world.

Also, Hamas situates themselves next to schools and civilian buildings when they fire at Israel so Israel has no choice but to fire back (and essentially put civilian lives at risk). And then Hamas uses Israel's retaliation as propaganda. The US would be in the same boat.
 
If the US was in Israel's position we would use drone strikes and ground forces. I'm willing to be we would have way less Civ deaths than Israel.

You mean like the ±19,000 civilian deaths in Afghanistan in the past 11-13 years? From drone strikes and ground forces.

Again, your lack of information and jumping to conclusions is staggering. Are you one of the people that thinks Israel is taking as much civilian life as possible?
 
I doubt it. The IDF is one of the best trained militaries in the world.

Also, Hamas situates themselves next to schools and civilian buildings when they fire at Israel so Israel has no choice but to fire back (and essentially put civilian lives at risk). And then Hamas uses Israel's retaliation as propaganda. The US would be in the same boat.

"Has no choice", what a load of nonsense.

If terrorist have hostages you need to change your strategy, you don't just kill hundreds of innocent children anyway.

That only makes you just as bad as the terrorist if not worse.
 
"Has no choice", what a load of nonsense.

If terrorist have hostages you need to change your strategy, you don't just kill hundreds of innocent children anyway.

That only makes you just as bad as the terrorist if not worse.

So you agree then that Hamas is a terrorist organization?

As long as we have that out of the way, yes, you're right. The civilians of Gaza could be seen as hostages of Hamas and maybe that's how Israel should see it too, and change their tactics accordingly.

However, given how many people live in the Gaza strip and how many casualities there have been so far, it's not like Israel is purposely trying to kill as many people as possible. To their credit, they are trying to mitigate the loss of life. Which is more than anyone could say for Hamas. The more children that are killed, the better, and Hamas has no problem using infants as human shields.
 
"Has no choice", what a load of nonsense.

If terrorist have hostages you need to change your strategy, you don't just kill hundreds of innocent children anyway.

That only makes you just as bad as the terrorist if not worse.

That's a massive oversimplification and you know it man. There are two military parties and two civilian parties here, and the lines between civilian and military are blurred by Hamas.

This isn't Die Hard with like 30 hostages in a mall.
 
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