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The Israel Situation II

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I am very sympathetic towards the people who lived in Gaza, and I do think the IDF has been heavy-handed and almost indiscriminate (or at least bordering on indifferent) in its approach. I cannot imagine why they think it's acceptable, morally and politically, for 70-80% of the casualties they cause to be civilians, and why they purposely target coordinates they know are near UN facilities (it shouldn't matter if there's militants hiding nearby, it's inexcusable).

But, on the other hand…. I do feel serious pause, when a Palestinian civilian is interviewed and they claim they would be happy to sacrifice their child for the "resistance." It does give credence to the idea that the populace (or at least segments of it) hate the Israelis more than they love their children.
 
Yes, I think that kind of fatalism becomes ingrained over time, and it is probably difficult to extinguish.
 
I am very sympathetic towards the people who lived in Gaza, and I do think the IDF has been heavy-handed and almost indiscriminate (or at least bordering on indifferent) in its approach. I cannot imagine why they think it's acceptable, morally and politically, for 70-80% of the casualties they cause to be civilians, and why they purposely target coordinates they know are near UN facilities (it shouldn't matter if there's militants hiding nearby, it's inexcusable).

But, on the other hand…. I do feel serious pause, when a Palestinian civilian is interviewed and they claim they would be happy to sacrifice their child for the "resistance." It does give credence to the idea that the populace (or at least segments of it) hate the Israelis more than they love their children.

The vehement pro-Palestinians will just retort with "This is what the Israelis have driven an innocent and peace-loving people to do!!!". The extreme propagators of either side will always manage to turn it back onto the party they want to blame. This thread when I first started commenting was and still is primarily filled with people who feel Israel must take almost all the responsibility. Their point of departure is "Take Israel out of the equation and the problem ceases to exist".

To the hardened anti-Israel chatter boxes any and all negative aspects of this conflict can and will be traced back to Israel.
 
The vehement pro-Palestinians will just retort with "This is what the Israelis have driven an innocent and peace-loving people to do!!!". The extreme propagators of either side will always manage to turn it back onto the party they want to blame. This thread when I first started commenting was and still is primarily filled with people who feel Israel must take almost all the responsibility. Their point of departure is "Take Israel out of the equation and the problem ceases to exist".

To the hardened anti-Israel chatter boxes any and all negative aspects of this conflict can and will be traced back to Israel.

and there are Israel defenders who quickly dismiss the 70% civilian casualty rate because Hamas are considered terrorist so it justifies anything Israel does, even war crimes.

Both sides can be incredibly biased but that's to be expected with any highly divisive issue.
 
The vehement pro-Palestinians will just retort with "This is what the Israelis have driven an innocent and peace-loving people to do!!!". The extreme propagators of either side will always manage to turn it back onto the party they want to blame. This thread when I first started commenting was and still is primarily filled with people who feel Israel must take almost all the responsibility. Their point of departure is "Take Israel out of the equation and the problem ceases to exist".

To the hardened anti-Israel chatter boxes any and all negative aspects of this conflict can and will be traced back to Israel.

Yeah, I pretty much dismiss anyone who portrays this conflict in black-and-white terms, whether they're coming from the Israeli or Palestinian side.

But, as far as internet discussions go, this thread is heads above the rest in terms of having thoughtful and analytical discussion, as opposed to insane and baseless rhetoric. There's been a handful of stupid (usually drive-by) posts, but I have seen the comments threads on various news sites like Yahoo! and CNN and that bleak intellectual wasteland makes this place look like Charlie Rose. Pro-Israeli commentators yelling down pro-Palestinian commentators, and vice-versa, with nothing deeper than insults and cliched talking-points.
 
and there are Israel defenders who quickly dismiss the 70% civilian casualty rate because Hamas are considered terrorist so it justifies anything Israel does, even war crimes.

Both sides can be incredibly biased but that's to be expected with any highly divisive issue.

Definitely. My concern comes in with how many people are picking one side or another on a divisive issue. The surge in pro-Palestinian support from people not at all affected by the issue that become rabid Israel haters that resort to stealth anti-Semetism is somewhat alarming. I have to ask myself why this conflict is the one where people back a certain party, is it really only because it's divisive? I'm not sure in all cases.

Yeah, I pretty much dismiss anyone who portrays this conflict in black-and-white terms, whether they're coming from the Israeli or Palestinian side.

But, as far as internet discussions go, this thread is heads above the rest in terms of having thoughtful and analytical discussion, as opposed to insane and baseless rhetoric. There's been a handful of stupid (usually drive-by) posts, but I have seen the comments threads on various news sites like Yahoo! and CNN and that bleak intellectual wasteland makes this place look like Charlie Rose. Pro-Israeli commentators yelling down pro-Palestinian commentators, and vice-versa, with nothing deeper than insults and cliched talking-points.

Problem is 95% of the mouth breathers that grace the public forum with their opinions only care about one side or the other, even isolated ones in this thread. People here are educated enough to know that kind of thing is frowned upon, so they do it in a very circuitous and indirect way, but it's there.
 
"Educational assistance", "religious extremism", "Multi-faceted". Your posts fascinate me from a critical discourse analysis perspective, because you use all the correct mechanisms to diminish responsibility on Hamas' side but then highlight and emphasize Israel's contribution as the initiate for all Hamas' responses. I have to smile seeing you bend and obfuscate to absolve Hamas of the same crimes you want people to abandon Israel for.

What part of terrorism did I 'Bend' or 'obfuscate' to absolve Hamas? I simply stated that they are actively or have been involved in terrorism, as well as social services, and Palestinian resistance. In terms of a governing body, they have left most of that to other political groups lately. Israel is also multi-faceted, in that it is a state-sponsor of terrorism, used terrorism to create it's state, as well as provide democracy for Jews and a controlled minority of Arabs and Christians. We can go over the vast array of social services as well, but we all know that Israel is a recognized state which provides all the benefits of economic and military alliances the West has to offer. This allows it to continue it's ethnic cleansing under the guise of legitimate statehood.

Also...is "educational assistance" a euphemism?

Well Hamas did provide a wide array of social services. Food subsidies, educational help, and aid to refugees. After being sanctioned and isolated for their adamant political view of Israel's total destruction, the people of Gaza have been getting more aid from Fatah and Hamas seems to have relinquished most governing and politics to other political parties. They have since gone 'back to their roots' as a resistance movement, and unfortunately, aligned with Al Qaeda. It would be the same as calling all segments of the Iranian government (from the lowest street cleaner to Iran's Jewish population) terrorist simply because the Ayotollah regime supports Hezbollah. As we know, USA has a long history of covertly supporting what would be called terrorists: Mujahideen in Afghanistan, Baluchi and Arab separatists in Iran, death squads in Latin America [ex. Guatemala], and the IDF in Israel. I'd be hard pressed to find any American who would openly state they are terrorists because they voted in Reagan during the Cold War, or Bush during the illegal invasion of Iraq.

It's hilarious because for Hamas you're using all these measured and moderate terms like "assistance" and "authority" to lend your view lexical legitimacy, but when it comes to Israel you find every extreme adjective you can to incite reaction and reflexive support to what you say.

I've never hidden my bias, (towards the Palestinians), but don't assume it is blanketed support for Hamas, which has an active alliance with Al-Qaeda. In terms of sheer numbers of civilians killed, terrorism of civilians, and efficacy of destroying the life of everyday citizens, and ethnic cleansing, the Israeli military is far more effective, and receives far less criticism from the West.

I also find it interesting you don't make a distinction between Likud and Israel. You're very quick to make that distinction between Hamas and the Palestinians, but when it comes to anything being perpetrated against Palestinians suddenly it's an all-encompassing "Israel" doing it.

Likud is the elected government. There is a coalition with a few other groups (but ultimately dominated by Zionist groups who believe in Settlement expansion, and with that, an extension of terrorism, intimidation, land appropriation, and ethnic cleansing). Only one of the coalition groups has a platform built on direct talks with Palestinians.

So who is terrorizing the Palestinians more than the recognized state of Israel? If you can't point the fingers at the current mostly Pro-Settlement Likud administration either, who's left? Would you say the Palestinians are wholly to blame for every injustice done to them since Zionists started overpopulating and ethnically cleansing them?

When there are crimes against Israelis you're quick to inform people it's a small contingent that's responsible, but somehow when Palestinians are on the receiving end of criminal behavior it's all of Israel that's working the cogs of this machine?

I simply referred to the incident that apparently sparked Israel to punish Hamas, murder thousands of civilians and destroy an entire city. It was the death of 3 boys by a splinter group that does not fall under Hamas's authority.

Another language indicator about your actual beliefs. You're using concepts like "massacres", "assassinations", "truck bombs" and "racism" and "memorialization of war criminals" (Is praising suicide bombing martyrs not similar? ;))

My bias is simply with the Palestinians being ethnically cleansed. To answer your question if the crimes above being memorialized is similar, yes, but with one clear exception. When Israel memorializes (even elects them to become Prime Ministers) terrorists who blow up buildings or are accused of crimes against humanity, they are being funded, defended, and supported by the United States and the West. If anybody complains about Israeli terror, they are labeled as an Anti-Semite (which is ridiculous because Palestinians are just as much Semitic as Jews), or worse yet, a supporter of "terrorism."

I doubt you care much about this conflict or a solution or the lives of civilians quite as much as you care about creating a whirlwind of condemnation for Israel like it would solve anything.

You're right on a few things here. I'm not Palestinian or Israeli, and I don't care as much as a Palestinian or an Israeli because ultimately, I'm not living in that colonial dystopia. I am a student of world history though, and from my perspective, anybody who defends Israel, like the Apartheid regime in South Africa, and the Colonial murderers of the past, will be on the wrong side of it when this conflict comes to an end. There is a way out of this conflict, but it will be a bitter pill to swallow for all the parties. If you have read my comments in the past few years in this topic (Click Here to see my stance on the earlier thread a few years ago), you will see that I have stated I would not mind at all if Israel takes all of the Palestinian territories with the exception that the Palestinians have a right to return to their homeland. That solution would be a US-European effort to enforce a pluralistic society and allow back the millions of Palestinian refugees who are knocking on the doors of Israel to return home. Israel wants other Arab countries to absorb them to permanently cleanse them from Israeli soil. These people have just as much, if not MORE right to return than Zionists who stole their land and destroyed their heritage. If a segment of these helpless people were not allowed to return to their rightful homes, then they need to be given sanctuary in the US, Europe, and Arab countries that have prolonged this conflict for the past 60 years.

I liked how you included the Aftonbladet story in there as some added sensationalist spice, when it's a story originating from well known anti-Israeli exponents. I also like how you erased the fact that the accusations extended to Israeli citizens and IDF soldiers having their organs taken as well as Palestinians. But it wouldn't get the traction you're seeking unless you make it sound like Israeli doctors are mass-harvesting organs from only Palestinians, would it?

Doesn't negate the fact that they were taking human organs from Palestinians. Sorry I didn't post every fact for you to digest. Using your flawed argument of maligned intent, why didn't you condemn it?
 
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I am very sympathetic towards the people who lived in Gaza, and I do think the IDF has been heavy-handed and almost indiscriminate (or at least bordering on indifferent) in its approach. I cannot imagine why they think it's acceptable, morally and politically, for 70-80% of the casualties they cause to be civilians, and why they purposely target coordinates they know are near UN facilities (it shouldn't matter if there's militants hiding nearby, it's inexcusable).

Where did that number come from?

I've yet to see any substantiated civilian casualty percentages.
 
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Seriously? There's this international institution called the United Nations. Perhaps you've heard of it? Plus, the Gaza health ministry, Amnesty and others have made similar calculations. Even the IDF that wishes to downplay the amount of civilian casualties still estimates that 60% were civilians (and every impartial observer realizes that's far less than the reality). This can't honestly be the first time you're hearing these numbers. It's been all over the news for weeks.
 
The UN estimated the proportion of civilians among the Palestinian casualties to be 85%.
 
This almost blind support and cynicism to Palestinian casualties is part of a wider problem in the US of now irrelevant support for the Israeli Apartheid state. Apparently, there are people within the US military who agree with this sentiment.

Ex-US general: We pay a price for backing Israel

Slamming settlements, James Mattis, former commander of CentCom, tells crowd in Aspen that moderate Arabs are forced to hide support for America

Mattis took over Central Command, whose area of responsibility includes the Middle East, North Africa, and Central Asia, from David Petraeus in 2010.

He called the current situation in Israel “unsustainable” and blamed the settlements for harming prospects for peace. The chances for an accord between Israel and the Palestinians, said Mattis, “are starting to ebb because the settlements and where they’re at are going to make it impossible to maintain the two state solution.”

Mattis then described a hypothetical in which 500 Jewish settlers live among 10,000 Arabs, and the implications of where Israel draws the border. He called it a choice between giving up the idea of a Jewish state or becoming an apartheid state.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/ex-us-general-we-pay-a-price-for-backing-israel/
 
What part of terrorism did I 'Bend' or 'obfuscate' to absolve Hamas? I simply stated that they are actively or have been involved in terrorism, as well as social services, and Palestinian resistance. In terms of a governing body, they have left most of that to other political groups lately. Israel is also multi-faceted, in that it is a state-sponsor of terrorism, used terrorism to create it's state, as well as provide democracy for Jews and a controlled minority of Arabs and Christians. We can go over the vast array of social services as well, but we all know that Israel is a recognized state which provides all the benefits of economic and military alliances the West has to offer. This allows it to continue it's ethnic cleansing under the guise of legitimate statehood.

We have no more to discuss then my ideologically partisan chum. You're not invested in a solution, just a conveniently distant vendetta like other "academics" that revel in pursuing little argument victories. You like your fine distinctions when it defends Hamas and Palestine's rights but stick to broad strokes when condemning "Israel" and "Zionists". I won't even go into how people like you have quickly transformed the term Zionist from its denotative meaning of supporting a Jewish homeland to a suddenly connotative meaning of Jews who want all of Israel for themselves and to eliminate all Palestinian presence.

As long as your pet hates make you feel good, more power to you man.
 
We have no more to discuss then my ideologically partisan chum. You're not invested in a solution, just a conveniently distant vendetta like other "academics" that revel in pursuing little argument victories. You like your fine distinctions when it defends Hamas and Palestine's rights but stick to broad strokes when condemning "Israel" and "Zionists". I won't even go into how people like you have quickly transformed the term Zionist from its denotative meaning of supporting a Jewish homeland to a suddenly connotative meaning of Jews who want all of Israel for themselves and to eliminate all Palestinian presence.

As long as your pet hates make you feel good, more power to you man.

You don't think that Palestinians resist? That Hamas provides social services? Why would you bold that?
 
You don't think that Palestinians resist? That Hamas provides social services? Why would you bold that?

I bold that part to contrast it with what he describes Israel as doing. He emphasizes all the good Hamas does and emphasizes all the bad Israel does. I'm assuming having a racist and ethnically driven agenda to destroy all Jews counts in the red column for Hamas? I'm also assuming protecting their citizens counts in the black column for Israel? According to how he seems to structure all his views Hamas defending Palestinians is heroic and seeking to kill Jews is valiant resistance. Israel defending their civilians passively and actively though is ethnic cleansing and Apartheid.

It's highly amusing that he mentions one of his solutions as "accepting all Palestinians back into Israel" as plausible - when he already knows what would happen to Israeli Jews if that "solution" was ever realized.

I could of course be wrong on all counts, but it seems suspiciously like racist views and racist ideology are only condemnable when they come from Israel. When it's Hamas it's just defending their land.
 
I think much of the reason Israel is condemned more than Palestinian organisations is that Israel is perceived as an outpost of the West and the stronger party. Both of those factors contribute to greater expectations on Israel to respect human rights and uphold international law.

In a similar way, I am horrified that the USA and UK are, or have been, complicit in torture. I am less shocked that China does the same, because my expectations of the Chinese regime are much lower. There is also the fact that Western nations are, for the most part, open and democratic, and therefore more responsive to public opinion.
 
^I agree, and with General Mattis's assessment, as well.

Israel has a right to defend itself. But that doesn't justify the mass, indiscriminate killing of civilians and destruction caused in Gaza in this current assault. The children torn to shreds and decapitated by IDF bombs are not to blame for the Hamas "terror tunnels" and rocket attacks. The soldiers who carried out these attacks are baby killers. Their superiors should stand trial for war crimes. The soldiers who refused to participate are denounced and disgraced in public, but I respect them. They did the right thing, and are being called cowards and traitors. The society that makes excuses for killing scores of unarmed civilians, and babies and disabled people in hospitals and schools is condemned.
 
UK band steps up and writes song for Gaza, and then has videos removed by YouTube for not being 'real'.

 
We have no more to discuss then my ideologically partisan chum. You're not invested in a solution, just a conveniently distant vendetta like other "academics" that revel in pursuing little argument victories. You like your fine distinctions when it defends Hamas and Palestine's rights but stick to broad strokes when condemning "Israel" and "Zionists". I won't even go into how people like you have quickly transformed the term Zionist from its denotative meaning of supporting a Jewish homeland to a suddenly connotative meaning of Jews who want all of Israel for themselves and to eliminate all Palestinian presence.

As long as your pet hates make you feel good, more power to you man.

Impressive display of dodging every pertinent question regarding Israel's policy on ethnically cleansing the Palestinians. You neglected to show your own stance on a solution and yet chose to simply belittle mine. That's fine though, we can all pretend Israel is doing the right thing. We've been doing it for the past 60 years at the expense of 6 Million Palestinians.
 
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I bold that part to contrast it with what he describes Israel as doing. He emphasizes all the good Hamas does and emphasizes all the bad Israel does.

You probably will dodge this entire discussion as you have stated earlier you intend to, but it's better I clarify:

You instigated this entire debate when you questioned the multi-faceted campaign of Hamas, so I had to reiterate what types of actions they have performed. I was not defending Hamas, I was giving you clarification. You just used that as a setup to dodge the gross humanitarian crisis that Israel has created for the 4.5 Million refugees and the right of return of the other 1.5 Million living in other countries. Gaza is just a stepping stone of a very big problem within Israel of acceptance of the indigenous population. You, like many others who choose to sit on the fence will continue to be apathetic to this cause.

I'm assuming having a racist and ethnically driven agenda to destroy all Jews counts in the red column for Hamas? I'm also assuming protecting their citizens counts in the black column for Israel? According to how he seems to structure all his views Hamas defending Palestinians is heroic and seeking to kill Jews is valiant resistance. Israel defending their civilians passively and actively though is ethnic cleansing and Apartheid.

The problem with the word "ASSUME" is that it makes an ASS out of U and ME. Don't put words in my mouth DP, I never said they are heroic, and I'm definitely not glorifying their terrorism. This is war to Hamas, and they are an organization that has chosen to arm itself and fight. They are using the same tactics Israel used to create it's own state and this is absolutely hypocritical to put Israel on a brighter pedestal for 'defending' their citizens. Palestinians are fighting for their very existence from a very real threat. Hamas can be defeated easily with a multi-faceted approach by Israel in destroying their settlements and working on an amicable solution for the right of return. Likud is a party that is founded on aggressive forward policy on settlement construction and a one-state solution. They are just as unwilling to negotiate as Hamas and are far more effective in reaching their goal of complete cleansing of Palestinians from East Jerusalem, and territorial expansion in the West Bank.

It's highly amusing that he mentions one of his solutions as "accepting all Palestinians back into Israel" as plausible - when he already knows what would happen to Israeli Jews if that "solution" was ever realized.

As American & Israeli intelligence, intellectuals, former IDF, educators, military officers have all said, Israel is sliding down a precipice that is leading straight to fascism and apartheid. Trouble times call for hard decisions. Pluralism is the future for Israel. One of Likud's coalition partners is working creating more pluralism for the different Jewish sects as we speak, and there are left wing groups who support an extension of this policy to include Palestinians.

It is either this, or answer to history when the Palestinians are ethnically cleansed to retain their Jewish utopia of majority Jews and minority Arab Muslims & Christians. This "final" solution is unsustainable and reckless.

I could of course be wrong on all counts, but it seems suspiciously like racist views and racist ideology are only condemnable when they come from Israel. When it's Hamas it's just defending their land.

You are wrong when you assume. Otherwise, put your policy down for a solution and everyone here would be glad to address it.
 
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UK band steps up and writes song for Gaza, and then has videos removed by YouTube for not being 'real'.


Pictures / Ads of Israeli oppression in the hallways of Boston's subways were also forcibly removed by Israeli proponents without any just cause. Isreal works hard to censor criticism home and abroad.
 
The problem with the word "ASSUME" is that it makes an ASS out of U and ME.
Did you just come up with that?

As American & Israeli intelligence, intellectuals, former IDF, educators, military officers have all said, Israel is sliding down a precipice that is leading straight to fascism and apartheid. Trouble times call for hard decisions. Pluralism is the future for Israel. One of Likud's coalition partners is working creating more pluralism for the different Jewish sects as we speak, and there are left wing groups who support an extension of this policy to include Palestinians.
The options for Israel, as I see it:

1) Systematic extermination/expulsion of the palestinians. Not a viable option at this time as the international community would come down hard on them and it would render Israel a non-viable country. These types of actions can only be done during a major war, if the US ever went to war with Russia for example, Israel would consider cleaning up shop.

There are also elements within the Israeli leadership who wouldn't want this black mark on Israel's historical record, it's hard to tell the inner character of these people from across the world, but naturally politicians are psychopaths all over the world. If you have a heart, you don't make it to the top, period.

We should be careful not to think of systematic extermination as some preposterous and unlikely outcome. It would neither be the first time nor the last time, it's happened many times in human history. Hitler is the first example people think of, but he didn't think of himself as the example, in his own writings he modelled himself after the British Empire and what they did in North America.

Systematic expulsion requires a jurisdiction willing to take in 5 million Palestinians, which doesn't seem likely at all. I've lived in Canada, the USA, and Australia, and certainly none of these would take in a few million Palestinian refugees.

2) One-state solution, what a troll on my Facebook newsfeed dubs "Palesrael". This is arguably what South Africa did (though a lot of the white people just left), and what the United States claimed it was doing in the 1960s with ostensible desegregation. I don't see this happening in Israel anytime soon, either, Israels are very aware of their privilege, they are a rich country in an impoverished and backward region of the world, and they want to maintain that way. Their image is of a country with a sophisticated high-tech economy, great food, and an abundance of bikini bodies lining its beaches. They want it to stay that way, and it's hard for me to imagine what it would take for them to abandon all that. I am positive that warnings from American & Israeli intelligence, intellectuals, former IDF, educators, military officers that Israel is sliding down a precipice that is leading straight to fascism and apartheid will not be sufficient.

Meanwhile both sides have built up a very deep racism for the other side in these past few decades. If there were one-state the two political parties would be the Israeli party and the Palestinian party. That doesn't work. Even with one state, it would be born with tremendous economic inequality, and thus Palestinian groups would likely keep firing rockets.

3) Status quo. There's never any such thing as the status quo of course, but there is slow change, which is the option of passing the buck to a successor. They can just maintain Gaza as is, approximately, as Palestinian culture further degenerates at its current rate. It's not a terrible option for Israel, the USA is too politically bankrupt and dysfunction to modify its policies, the neighbouring Arab monarchies are too preoccupied buying hundreds of Ferraris to ever pose a legitimate regional threat. This is the option that has been pursued for the past few decades, and I'm pretty sure it eventually converges to option #1.

4) Two state solution. This isn't viable, I don't know of many educated people who consider this viable anymore. I remember when I was a teenager during the Clinton years I'd eagerly listen to any and all news on this front, figuring out we'd have two independent parallel states within a couple years. Those negotiations are still going on, but I'm tuning them out.
 
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And once again...hamas breaks the treaty...
Uhm do u guys see a pattern here?
 
And once again...hamas breaks the treaty...
Uhm do u guys see a pattern here?

Since 1987. Hamas can't control Al-Qaeda groups like the Abdullah Azam Brigade, or other splinter groups. Because they chose to ally themselves with these other terrorist groups instead of listening to Fatah, they have dug themselves a very deep hole. I don't see any prospect for this militia group to be able to retain control of Gaza ever again while Israel is punishing the entire city and murdering thousands and and making hundreds of thousands homeless. With these destitute they can feed off of their rage, but otherwise, I can only see them playing a factor during times of retribution and bloodshed.
 
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