The Joker Thread - Part 1

[AndyTrevino]

Yeah, I didn't want to say it lol I'm sure he's a great guy, and he's a talented actor, but whoever he's playing better be someone I'm not supposed to sympathize with lol

He played a really sweet kid in Dunkirk so I wouldn't be THAT surprised but he also has maaaaaajor creep energy

 

[RokMeAmadeus]

Yeah, I didn't want to say it lol I'm sure he's a great guy, and he's a talented actor, but whoever he's playing better be someone I'm not supposed to sympathize with lol

Then he's perfect for Joker. We don't need another sympathetic version lol

 

[CondimentKing]

Keoghan is soooo good in Green Knight. I don't want to see another pre-Joker version of Joker though. He'd be great casting though.

 

[Chris Reeves]

Then

Then he's perfect for Joker. We don't need another sympathetic version lol

That's actually an excellent point. I completely forgot that was him in The Killing of a Sacred Deer. I had to re-watch a few scenes to jog my memory, but I suppose I can see where people might think he'd make an alright Joker.

 

[Boom]

It could be a role similar to Foley in TDKR, or Flass from BB. I wouldn't say those characters were a waste necessarily.

They'd certainly be a waste of his talent.

The guy is very good.

 

[CondimentKing]

Yeah Keoghan really is a fantastic actor. So creepy in Green Knight but also so human in Chernobyl and Dunkirk. He can flip on the devilish weird vibe very fast. There's no doubt Merkel is very important in the plot at the very least

 

[CondimentKing]

I do think it's pretty likely he's a dirty cop who's involved in the drops operation as "Mad Hatter," but just as an alias (ie. not Tetch) - just a re-imagined drug dealer, considering all the drops imagery is almost entirely Alice in Wonderland-y with the chesire cat grins and weird zany visuals. I also think the gang is his, same cheshire cat smiles.

 

[metaphysician]

My own preference is still "Less serial killer, more prince of crime". We have plenty of Serial Killer Joker, it gets old. Go for a version of the Joker who has grand aspirations like Bruce does, only his aspiration is to rule the city as it is, rather than transform the city into what it could be. He's an obsessive genius prodigy who manipulates, lies, intimidates, and murders in order to place himself at the top of the pyramid. And once he's there, what is the Joker's goal? Nothing. He seeks power because he can, arbitrary and capricious, and would exploit the power he has in equally arbitrary and capricious manners. There is no grand ideological reason why he would pick a random person and sadistically disassemble their life, not even simple vengeance; he would do it because its fun, and because he can, and because no one can stop him.

 

[metaphysician]

Joker literally creates two different versions of his backstory in The Dark Knight to unnerve two different people, but yet we still have people here who take him at his word when he tells Dent "I am like a dog chasing cars".

I find this is definitely a recurring problem. Far too many people seem to assume that Because A Character Says It In A Story, it must therefore be true. The idea that a character could be mistaken, sloppy and imprecise, or just flat out blatantly lying? Weirdly unthinkable. See also: Fight Club.

 

[RokMeAmadeus]

That's actually an excellent point. I completely forgot that was him in The Killing of a Sacred Deer. I had to re-watch a few scenes to jog my memory, but I suppose I can see where people might think he'd make an alright Joker.

I was just gonna recommend it if you turned out not to have seen it before lol. Reeves definitely must've seen both him and Farrell in that movie and liked what he saw. I'm with @Boom, it'd be a real waste if he's just... Some cop lol.

A lot of people want him for Hatter as well and I see it, but we all know which role is juicier.

 

[Chris Reeves]

His first canonical appearance is in Batman #405, where he and his other fellow officers try to hunt down the Batman. Before being replaced, he was James Gordon's original partner. However, in need of teaching, Sarah Essen was now Gordon's partner. They still maintained a friendship.

In Batman #406, along with his men, Merkel and others enters the building and begins sifting through the rubble. Batman lures them into a lower section of the building and traps them. Before preparing his escape, Batman uses a remote device to signal a massive flock of bats from the Batcave. The swarm of bats descends on the area giving Batman a chance to use them for cover to mask his escape. Several police squad cars attempt to follow the bat swarm, one of which even drives off Gotham Pier.

In Batman #407, along with his fellow cops and Jim Gordon, they interrogate Flass at length. At first, he refuses to cooperate, but before long, he agrees to detail everything he knows – including dirt on Commissioner Loeb.

In Batman: Dark Victory #6, things are heating up in Gotham City's underworld and the Penguin wouldn't have it any other way. With his hands tied by the Hang Man case, Batman is having a tough time from stopping Oswald from starting a gang-war. By his terms, he will plant evidence for starting a gang-war on each side. When the remaining side wins, Oswald will come in and take over. The Falcone's are against mostly the Maroni's, and anyone who oppose them, but Mario is having problems with Sofia and her condition. Janice Porter has an agreement with Mario, and has every evidence against Sofia, as she leads the empire into the ground, as he wants protection. The Joker is captured once again, and sent to Arkham Asylum, joining Alberto Falcone. For Merkel, he was found dead on St. Patrick's Day, hanging on the former property of the house that originally belonged to Harvey and Gilda Dent, making him the sixth victim.

Stanley Merkel

 

[RokMeAmadeus]

I understand the existence of Stanley Merkel in the comics. I still think it's a waste if he's just that. That does depend on what they do with him tho. If they pull from Dark Victory and he ends up being another Riddler victim halfway through, that would absolutely be a waste.

But I think some were saying he'd be in the spinoff show? I guess we'd have to wait and see.

 

[Chris Reeves]

I understand the existence of Stanley Merkel in the comics. I still think it's a waste if he's just that. That does depend on what they do with him tho. If they pull from Dark Victory and he ends up being another Riddler victim halfway through, that would absolutely be a waste.

But I think some were saying he'd be in the spinoff show? I guess we'd have to wait and see.

Yeah, he could have a bigger role in the GCPD spinoff, which would predate the events of The Batman.

 

[Boom]

 

[Eddie Dean]

He's my top choice

 

[Mindreaper21]

 

[Eddie Dean]

 

[Art Vandelay]

What about him?

 

[Mindreaper21]

 

[Captain Tired]

****ing crazy dutch bastard.

 

[PurpleStar]

My own preference is still "Less serial killer, more prince of crime". We have plenty of Serial Killer Joker, it gets old. Go for a version of the Joker who has grand aspirations like Bruce does, only his aspiration is to rule the city as it is, rather than transform the city into what it could be. He's an obsessive genius prodigy who manipulates, lies, intimidates, and murders in order to place himself at the top of the pyramid. And once he's there, what is the Joker's goal? Nothing. He seeks power because he can, arbitrary and capricious, and would exploit the power he has in equally arbitrary and capricious manners. There is no grand ideological reason why he would pick a random person and sadistically disassemble their life, not even simple vengeance; he would do it because its fun, and because he can, and because no one can stop him.

First time posting in here, although I've followed the thread for a while.

I agree with this for the most part. It's true that some of the most well regarded and iconic Joker stories are somewhat portrayed Joker as a serial killer if you reduced them to the basic details. Joker of course is introduced in Batman #1 as essentially a serial murderer. And stories like The Joker's Five Way Revenge and The Laughing Fish and Sign of the Joker are considered influential because they get back to that idea. Yet it's not as simple as that.

In Batman #1, while in both Joker stories in that issue the basic thing is that he goes on a killing spree, that's not the only aspect to it. The reason that this is such a strong introduction to the character is not just because he's a killer. If that was the case they wouldn't have decided to keep the character, rather than kill him off. What makes it compelling is that you get a sense that the character is cunning and audacious, which you can't help but enjoy. He is also rather ego maniacal and while he enjoys confounding the police and authorities, he also seems to desire more of a challenge. Which is why later he'll enjoy having the Batman as his best opponent.

The second Joker appearance in Batman #1, feels a bit of a retread as he escapes and resumes the killing and jewel theft spree, so this feels less strong than the first story which may be why it's not always collected with it. Imo the two Joker stories in Batman #1 are a two part story though, so should be read together. Perhaps that shows that just having him kill is something where less is more, but it also brings out the more maniacal, crazed aspect of the character. Specifically the first panels where he's in jail and of course the hysterical laughter at the end at the prospect of his own death. Which is something that some state only developed later as in the first Joker story he seems more stoic, but I don't really agree with that. The concept of him as a cunning, ambitious but maniacal and ego driven master criminal is there from the start really. Of course, Joker kills in other early 1940s stories too like The Cross Country Crimes and Laugh Town Laugh, but not always as they developed some other aspects to the character e.g. crime boss, themed crimes, humour etc. As you say, he mostly does these things because he can for seditious amusement and ego, but a grand philosophical cause really is not necessary.

Then when you consider stories like The Joker's Five Way Revenge and The Laughing Fish/Sign of the Joker, those are well written and well illustrated. But they also stand out because they provided a change of pace. Namely, The Joker's Five Way Revenge stands out not because the Joker is killing just because that's what he does, but because it was the first story in which he'd be shown to do that in a long time. Similarly, The Laughing Fish/Sign of the Joker stands out because although by 1978 The Joker had been depicted as a killer again, this was the first time that we get the motif of announcing kills before he does it for a long time.

So, basically, while stories like the above give the impression that killing sprees are a character fundamental, it's not as simple as that. In all of the above and others, it's the novelty and also well written scripts which offer other characteristics that make them great. "Kill kill kill" is not the only thing going on with the character, even in stories in which he does. That's why I find some newer Joker stories a bit tiresome as the kills seem there "just because" and lacking in suspense and impact because too much of this makes you not care. Joker is a murderer, but that's not all there is to him.

 

[JubJub86]

****ing crazy dutch bastard.

Mike Myers for Joker!

 

[Kane52630]

@Boom

 

[J.Drangal]

I was one of the few to wonder about him as Batman. I know people will say he doesn't have the classic Bruce Wayne look, but I don't know. For a Batman on the edge, I could see him pulling it off. He has a lot of charisma, he's a pretty tall guy and his voice is quite impressive.

Now for the Joker, I can imagine him in some versions of the character, but I really hope Reeves uses the thin and ill-looking "Man ho Laugh" look. And there, I don't think he would be the right fit, or at least I don't think the role would make the best use of his qualities.

Now for Two-Face... He could be pretty intense imo.

 

[Boom]

@Boom

Still one of my top choices.