The Joker Thread - Part 1

Some Frank Booth influence could be fun. While I wouldn't want them to do this version exactly there are some Booth-like elements in Azzarrello's Joker that could work, I'm mostly thinking the mood swings his Joker has and how he sometimes just completely crashes. That scene where Frost walks in on Joker sobbing hysterically on Harley is haunting, Joker showing any weakness in front of others is something I don't really like but the idea that he has profound lows that match his manic highs is really compelling.
 
It does, but I don't want another face paint Joker either. It doesn't even have to be a result of chemical bleaching; if they really want to explain it, just make it a skin condition or something like that.

Joaquin's red suit would definitely fit this universe though, if nothing else.
I'd have thought I'd be done with facepaint Joker now but I've grown almost indifferent to the makeup/permawhite thing. I guess if I had to choose I'd say permawhite for the sake of variety but it feels... Weirdly less important than his costume or hair style.

All I know is I want Reeves Joker to be clean and stylish. Grungy Joker is a great look (but it feels almost too obvious for Reeves aesthetic.

Also: give me white TDKR suit.
 
Some Frank Booth influence could be fun. While I wouldn't want them to do this version exactly there are some Booth-like elements in Azzarrello's Joker that could work, I'm mostly thinking the mood swings his Joker has and how he sometimes just completely crashes. That scene where Frost walks in on Joker sobbing hysterically on Harley is haunting, Joker showing any weakness in front of others is something I don't really like but the idea that he has profound lows that match his manic highs is really compelling.
That's basically what I've been thinking too, if they don't wanna go the implied-demon route. Give him violent mood swings that put you on edge, but of course make him intelligent, too. That could make him pretty believable IMHO if that's what they really wanna focus on
 
I'd have thought I'd be done with facepaint Joker now but I've grown almost indifferent to the makeup/permawhite thing. I guess if I had to choose I'd say permawhite for the sake of variety but it feels... Weirdly less important than his costume or hair style.

All I know is I want Reeves Joker to be clean and stylish. Grungy Joker is a great look (but it feels almost too obvious for Reeves aesthetic.

Also: give me white TDKR suit.
I get that; I'm just tired of everyone assuming that he only wears makeup all the time. And, the white TDKR suit would be great, at least for a couple scenes. I'd kinda prefer something like this though:

Purple_Tuxedo_Jacket__10210_zoom.jpg
 
Do not make Joker Frank Booth. Although I’d like a different portrayal of the Joker after Phoenix, Reeves is making a very realistic Batman world so an Arthur like Joker makes the most sense.
I’m at a point where as fun as it is to fancast young actors. **** it. Snatch up “final scene Joaquin” (hey that rhymes) from Joker 2019 and say Arthur Fleck isn’t canon. Easy peasy. Dude kills his psychiatrist & escapes the same year that Pattinson makes his first appearance as the Batman. Done deal. 1.5 billion here we go.

But in 2 weeks somebody will do a sick Caleb Landry Jones or Jake Gyllenhaal manip and i’m head over heels again.
 
The problem there is completely invalidating Joker as a story feels weird, it's awkward "Was it all a CRAZY FANTASY?!?" implications at the end do nothing for me already, and even then the connection to the Wayne's would feel weird even if it was his fantasy.

Also, I normally don't really like the Red Hood thing and would prefer if anything even origin adjacent for Joker was avoided across all Batman media but it would feel cool to have him first crop up as Red Hood in this setting as a supporting villain in the sequel before going full Joker. Do Scott Snyder's Red Hood Gang. Think they would look really, really cool with this aesthetic.
 
I could see the Joker singing In Dreams to Batman tbh. :funny:

'A candy coloured clown they call the sandman...'


Speaking of songs...

The lyrics to this always remind me of TKJ/Bats and Joker's relationship

"You may be right,
I may be crazy
But it just may be a lunatic you're looking for
Turn out the light
Don't try to save me..."

I mean, come on lol

The turn out the light part especially makes me think of the "two guys in a lunatic asylum" joke

 
The problem there is completely invalidating Joker as a story feels weird, it's awkward "Was it all a CRAZY FANTASY?!?" implications at the end do nothing for me already, and even then the connection to the Wayne's would feel weird even if it was his fantasy.

Also, I normally don't really like the Red Hood thing and would prefer if anything even origin adjacent for Joker was avoided across all Batman media but it would feel cool to have him first crop up as Red Hood in this setting as a supporting villain in the sequel before going full Joker. Do Scott Snyder's Red Hood Gang. Think they would look really, really cool with this aesthetic.
Thing is, even if Joker remains its own thing...I truly believe the ending means it was all a crazy fantasy anyway. That ending doesn’t even make sense unless it was all in his head. That’s why it’s so damn easy to link it up with a new Batman. The Wayne murders are legendary. A sick freak like Joker could imagine himself as a trust fund baby or being responsible for their murders and getting off on it.

I feel the same about the Red Hood gang. It’s also a cool way to keep his identity a mystery as you show his origin. Scott Snyder might be the key here for Court of Owls or a new Joker.
 
I hope we see Batman encounter the red hood gang in this movie. What a great surprise that would be for fans.

I thought I read somewhere, like a Reeves quote, that we follow Batman as he takes us through different areas in Gotham City. And interrogates/encounters multiple rogues. Am I nuts?
 
Maybe it's just me, but I never saw Arthur Fleck as an especially sympathetic character beyond the first ten minutes or so. I was initially inclined to sympathise with him, no doubt, due to his poverty and the fact that he was caring for his ill mother, but as the film went on and the layers started to peel back, I thought he seemed to display an inherently sadistic and maliciously inclined personality.

Also, getting back to Shauner's point about the film being a false narrative: another aspect of the movie that makes me buy into the theory that the whole film is a rewriting of history being spun by the Joker, is the fact that Arthur always seems to be painted as a doe-eyed innocent who's being oppressed on a near-cosmic level, almost to the point of it appearing comical and nonsensical.

Everyone seems to act against him, just because. Randall gives him a gun and later tells the boss that Arthur tried to buy one off of him. Why? The boss presumes that Arthur stole a shoddily constructed sign and is lying about the fact that some hoodlums jumped him for it. Why? None of it makes any real sense. Everyone is characterised as being an inexplicably terrible person, to the point that it feels farcical.

And none of the blame is ever placed at the feet of Arthur. It's always someone else that has to shoulder the blame for his misdeeds, whether it be his mother, Thomas Wayne, Murray Franklin or the whole of society itself. It totally sounds like a sympathy story being spun by Ted Bundy. He also could never seem to take responsibility for his murders. That's how I read the film at least.
 
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Maybe it's just me, but I never saw Arthur Fleck as an especially sympathetic character beyond the first ten minutes or so. I was initially inclined to sympathise with him, no doubt, due to his poverty and the fact that he was caring for his ill mother, but as the film went on and the layers started to peel back, I thought he seemed to display an inherently sadistic and maliciously inclined personality.

Also, getting back to Shauner's point about the film being a false narrative: another aspect of the movie that makes me buy into the theory that the whole film is a rewriting of history being spun by the Joker, is the fact that Arthur always seems to be painted as a doe-eyed innocent who's being oppressed on a near-cosmic level, almost to the point of it appearing comical and nonsensical.

Everyone seems to act against him, just because. Randall gives him a gun and later tells the boss that Arthur tried to buy one off of him. Why? The boss presumes that Arthur stole a shoddily constructed sign and is lying about the fact that some hoodlums jumped him for it. Why? None of it makes any real sense. Everyone is characterised as being an inexplicably terrible person, to the point that it feels farcical.

And none of the blame is ever placed at the feet of Arthur. It's always someone else that has to shoulder the blame for his misdeeds, whether it be his mother, Thomas Wayne, Murray Franklin or the whole of society itself. It totally sounds like a sympathy story being spun by Ted Bundy. He also could never seem to take responsibility for his murders. That's how I read the film at least.
Well said. That’s exactly right. It’s a psychopath coming up with a story during lockup that paints himself as the hero in his own story. He’s the protagonist. If a Batman ever showed up, he would be the villain of the piece. That’s how I look at the movie as well, if you were to take everything at face value (flipping the usual dynamic of Batman the hero vs antagonistic Joker. Instead Batman would grow up to be just as bad or even worse than his father. A complete *****ebag Batman).

And i’m sure he’s got more of those stories in his back pocket if a new blonde haired psychiatrist wants to hear a sob story.
 
I know Heath was supposedly meant to be a younger Joker, but they barely focused on that aspect. I totally get that it helps push the ageless aspect of the character, but if we get a younger Joker here, then I'd kinda like for them to acknowledge it, even if it's just something as little as the voice or maybe a more youthful appearance.
 
May I ask why? Not sure what that would add to the character. I mean, I wouldn’t want him to come off younger than Heath in the role.
 
May I ask why? Not sure what that would add to the character. I mean, I wouldn’t want him to come off younger than Heath in the role.
I'm not really sure if it would necessarily add anything to the character, but something as minor or vaguely implying him to be just a bit younger like his voice would be enough.

Earlier on in this thread (February?) I remember someone floating the idea of a younger Joker who feels like a lost soul from a bygone era or something to that effect. That angle could also lend a little bit of credence to the idea of him being immortal like Snyder's Joker.
 
I’m not really into a early 20’s Joker or one that might sound like he’s a teenager. Really don’t like that idea. Anything younger than late 20’s is a no for me.
 
I’m not really into a early 20’s Joker or one that might sound like he’s a teenager. Really don’t like that idea. Anything younger than late 20’s is a no for me.
Yeah, I was kinda picturing early 30s anyway.
 
This Joker should be in his early 40’s. I don’t want literally all the villains to be around the same age. I want an experienced Joker.
 
This Joker should be in his early 40’s. I don’t want literally all the villains to be around the same age. I want an experienced Joker.
Not all of them have to be young, but it would fit Joker the most considering the obvious. But yeah, I don't want them to all be so coincidentally young. It's not like his age truly matters anyways, but I think a Joker around Batman's age would be very appropriate.
 
I do think the big problem is how not to make it feel like a Dark Knight rehash. Having the film chronicle Joker’s rise up the ranks would a cool counterpoint to the fully formed Ledger take. Would even help with the whole escalation / freak take over Nolan forgot about between DK and DKR.
 
I do think the big problem is how not to make it feel like a Dark Knight rehash. Having the film chronicle Joker’s rise up the ranks would a cool counterpoint to the fully formed Ledger take. Would even help with the whole escalation / freak take over Nolan forgot about between DK and DKR.
I get what you're saying, but I feel like TDK chronicled Joker's rise up the ranks too with him eliminating the mob and repeatedly making himself known throughout the city
 
I’m trying to think of an example of how’d I want it to be handled and the best example in all honestly Is Koba in Dawn of Planet of the Apes
 
I’m trying to think of an example of how’d I want it to be handled and the best example in all honestly Is Koba in Dawn of Planet of the Apes
I could see him gaining henchmen through fear and charisma. Honestly, an interesting way to go would be that he inspires some of the more disturbed villains like Pyg and maybe Scarecrow, the same way he gains henchmen.
 
Ledger was Joker when we first see him but there’s some hyping 10 months prior with a Joker card, and nobody taking him that seriously. Then he robs a mob bank and he’s able to update his suit with their cash. The clowns he uses on the job talk about him as if he’s this mysterious figure that nobody has seen. Just stories.

I’d rather see him fully formed. Or show the Red Hood origin. Then a movie or two later he shows up fully formed as the Joker. Contact lenses, mangled smile (not a perfect even smile like Nicholson after his fall). But the first time we see “the Joker” he’s gotta be fully formed.

FULLY FORMED MATT!!
 
Ledger was Joker when we first see him but there’s some hyping 10 months prior with a Joker card, and nobody taking him that seriously. Then he robs a mob bank and he’s able to update his suit with their cash. The clowns he uses on the job talk about him as if he’s this mysterious figure that nobody has seen. Just stories.

I’d rather see him fully formed. Or show the Red Hood origin. Then a movie or two later he shows up fully formed as the Joker. Contact lenses, mangled smile (not a perfect even smile like Nicholson after his fall). But the first time we see “the Joker” he’s gotta be fully formed.

FULLY FORMED MATT!!
I don't think he needs a mangled smile.
 

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