Justice League The Justice League General & Speculation Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 46

[Superherofan123]

The suit looks good under Snyder’s direction. Whedon is a hack.

 

[Da-Scribe]

Lol, I still remember when Snyder said he was trying to grow Superman up and everyone took that as him saying that the character was childish when he was just trying to say he wanted him to grow into Superman. Folks still bring that up.

Snyder isn't always the best at articulating himself. That I cannot deny.

 

[AndrewGilkison]

Superman's last scene in MOS with General Swanwick was great. Why didn't we get that version of Superman in BvS?

 

[_Superman_]

Superman's last scene in MOS with General Swanwick was great. Why didn't we get that version of Superman in BvS?

You did get that Superman unless I'm missing something.

 

[misslane38]

Superman's last scene in MOS with General Swanwick was great. Why didn't we get that version of Superman in BvS?

We did. He did the same thing to the drone in Nairomi, and the whole incident was a catalyst for the world asking: Must there be a Superman? Superman chose to respond by giving humanity a chance to engage in debate before appearing before a government committee to speak on his behalf. Ultimately, this literally and figuratively blew up in his face.

In addition, Superman responded to the dangerous and suspicious intersection of government in politics by supporting his brilliant partner's investigative efforts into the Nairomi incident. While, in the meantime, responding to the abuse of power in Gotham by investigating The Batman.

Let's look at what Superman says to Swanwick in the aforementioned scene:

Swanwick: How do we know you won't one day
act against America's interests?
Superman: I grew up in Kansas, General. I'm about as American as it gets. Look, I'm here to help, but it has to be on my own terms. You have to convince Washington of that.
Swanwick: Even if I were willing to try, what makes you think they'd listen?
Superman: I don't know, general. Guess, I'll just have to trust you.

That last line? If you like it, and I think you do, then you have to accept what it means for BvS. It means Superman is putting his faith in Swanwick to stand up for him when it counts. And, in his own way, he does.

At a certain point, Superman can't just keep talking and keep asking people to support him. He can't make them trust him. He has to take a leap of faith and let the trust part come later as a result of action. When the public asks for him to speak, he does. He is letting the public have space to ask questions. I think that's great.

 

[Flint Marko]

When the public asks for him to speak, he does.

Except he literally does not speak at any point during this sequence

 

[Tra-El]

It's the "actions speak louder than words" label. Superman answered the public's questions through his actions. As the talking heads, along with Senator Finch, are debating the Superman subject and if the world needs a Superman, we see Clark pulling a shipwreck or saving an exploded vessel or saving flood victims as they paint his symbol on their rooftop as a sign of answered prayers. Superman never questioned. He simply did (albeit his frustrations of pushback from the skeptical public.)

 

[RomanticPenguin]

people just want to see superman being friendly with civilians guys

it's a shame the only time we got that he had a CGI mouth

 

[heatvision38]

Except he literally does not speak at any point during this sequence

[Lex Luthor] All according to my plan. [/Lex Luthor].

 

[misslane38]

Except he literally does not speak at any point during this sequence

Huh? What sequence? I didn't mention a sequence. I was talking about the Senate hearing. When Finch asks Superman to speak, framing it as an act of good faith, Superman considers it and does it by visiting the Capitol. He only doesn't get a chance to talk because of Lex's bomb. After, he leaves to ponder his next move sensitive to the fact that, based on the bomb, any move can be used against him to harm innocents. He decides to return to face the world with hope.

 

[Flint Marko]

Huh? What sequence? I didn't mention a sequence.

What else could you be referring to with this quote here?

When the public asks for him to speak, he does. He is letting the public have space to ask questions.

[Lex Luthor] All according to my plan. [/Lex Luthor].

He only doesn't get a chance to talk because of Lex's bomb.

Yeah this is totally Lex's fault and not the film-makers who deliberately chose to keep Superman at arm's length from the audience at every given moment.

 

[Da-Scribe]

 

[misslane38]

What else could you be referring to with this quote here?

The part of the movie when Finch goes on TV during a press conference and asks Superman explicitly to speak and poses specific questions. The montage sequence doesn't feature that at all. That's more the people talking amongst themselves. The people in that montage aren't demanding answers from Superman. They're talking to each other about how they feel about the situation. So, to be clear, I'm talking about this scene, which happens two scenes after the montage:

How do we determine what's good? In a democracy, good is a conversation not a unilateral decision. So, I urge Superman, to come to this hearth of the people tomorrow. To see those who have suffered. The world needs to know what happened in that desert. And to know what he stands for. How far will he take his power? Does he act by our will, or by his own?

Yeah this is totally Lex's fault and not the film-makers who deliberately chose to keep Superman at arm's length from the audience at every given moment.

Would you rather Lex look stupid? Writers write conflict. It's the essence of storytelling. The fact remains that Superman gives people the space to process and discuss, similar to how he asks Lois what she thinks in the cemetery in MoS, and lets the people process things without imposing. Then, when that processing ends with them asking for him to speak, he answers that call. The writers are not keeping Superman at an arm's length from the audience because we know the truth about him: what he values, what happened in Africa. We know who he is. We know more about him than the public who is asking him to speak. The writers are keeping Superman at arm's length from the people that exist within his story. Because, as Aaron Sorkin often says about screenwriting, good storytelling is all about giving a character a goal or intention and then creating obstacles or conflict. Lex at the hearing is that obstacle and that conflict.

 

[heatvision38]

Huh? What sequence? I didn't mention a sequence. I was talking about the Senate hearing. When Finch asks Superman to speak, framing it as an act of good faith, Superman considers it and does it by visiting the Capitol. He only doesn't get a chance to talk because of Lex's bomb. After, he leaves to ponder his next move sensitive to the fact that, based on the bomb, any move can be used against him to harm innocents. He decides to return to face the world with hope.

Flint was just being a wiseass taking your "speaking to the public" comment literally when he never got a chance to speak a single word. That's Flint for you, always there to make sure he keeps fans of these movies in check. Must be a rewarding role.

 

[HellYeah]

 

[kingcharmingman]

Flint was just being a wiseass taking your "speaking to the public" comment literally when he never got a chance to speak a single word. That's Flint for you, always there to make sure he keeps fans of these movies in check. Must be a rewarding role.

This sequence was very different between TC and UC.

At TC superman was tried.
At UC the trial was to expose luthor.

I hate this tc vs uc stuff

 

[heatvision38]

This sequence was very different between TC and UC.

At TC superman was tried.
At UC the trial was to expose luthor.

I hate this tc vs uc stuff

Either way, it was still an opportunity for Superman to speak, and Lex used this against Superman. So in that sense, I don't think TC vs UC changes this aspect of the discussion.

 

[idiot09]

https://vimeo.com/259126297

Made this little edit for fun. **** sound mixing, but I liked this track from BvS.

 

[Ultra Nolanite]

[YT]5iWikZKk7Ak[/YT]


Uhhh...

**** it, I'll go back to the amazing BvS tracks.

Tell me again how this is not a federal crime?

 

[idiot09]

Tell me again how this is not a federal crime?

It just hit me. All the JL scenes in that video were Whedon's "connective tissue".

 

[idiot09]

[YT]ins2EExnefs[/YT]

When arcade kicks in :

 

[GothamBat]

It just hit me. All the JL scenes in that video were Whedon's "connective tissue".

 

[The Guard]

I'll never really understand the "All costumes look better in the dark when you can't see them" line of thinking. I get it, shadows often look very cool and create atmosphere...but that's not really a compliment toward the costume that only looks great because it's mostly hidden. I heard this argument a lot with the Dark Knight Batsuit, or countless superhero suits..."It looks great in the shadows". Well yeah, when you can't see the actual design elements...how is that a plus?

But the JUSTICE LEAGUE Supersuit was designed to be seen, and seen in brighter conditions, or it would not have been designed the way it was in the first place. It's the latest version in an evolution of the suit where the muscles have been highlighted more and more with each subsequent film.

It likely doesn't "shine" as much in the scene with Alfred that we've seen for a specific reason...it's not Superman's triumphant return yet. It's not the "moment" the suit was conceived for, it's essentially a tease of Superman's grand return. That's probably part of why he walks out of the Fortress in silhouette as well. If you look at the final battle sequence, it starts off as a darker environment, and then they almost put the heroes into more and more light as the battle wears on, until they're fighting Steppenwolf in these shafts of light from the outside, that have changed from the red environment to something more natural.

Maybe some don't like the way the muscles shine on this version of the Supersuit, but that was clearly the goal with this version of the costume...for the muscles themselves to "shine". Wouldn't surprise if the goal was to make him look like some sort of beacon of hope in dark conditions, and for it to really pop in "daylight", or the glow from the Boom Tube, etc.

Now, I get that it looks better in some sequences than others, but I highly doubt any of these sequences, even the ones shot by Whedon, were shot in scenarios where there was no "controlled lighting". Even for the "cell phone footage". There are things you can do for lighting even in the daytime. There are also things you can do in post. It wasn't just Joss Whedon with a camera...there are entire crews at work on something like this, working with the lighting, composition, etc.

And if they had $30 million for reshoots, then it follows that they probably also had money to rig up a new approach to the suit if they needed to do so. Movies like this usually have multiple versions of the hero suit, for different action sequences/lighting conditions, etc. This was a deliberate approach, just as its fairly obvious that there were attempts to brighten up the film visually and tonally.

 

[GothamBat]

I'll never get over the "All costumes look better when you can't see them" line of thinking. I get it, a lot of you like shadows, and yes, it often looks very cool.

But the JUSTICE LEAGUE Supersuit was designed to be seen, and seen in bright conditions, or it would not have been designed the way it was.

Maybe you don't like the way the muscles shine on this go-round but that was clearly the goal with this version of the costume...for the muscles themselves to "shine".

I doubt any of these sequences, even the ones shot by Whedon, were shot in scenarios where there was no "controlled lighting". There are things you can do for lighting even in the daytime. It wasn't just Joss Whedon with a camera...there are entire crews at work on something like this, working with the lighting, composition, etc.

And if they had $30 million for reshoots, then it follows that they probably also had money to rig up a new approach to the suit if they needed to. This was a deliberate approach, just as its fairly obvious that there were attempts to brighten up the film visually and tonally.

It really wasn't though. It wasn't designed to be "seen in bright conditions".

It was only ever supposed to be seen at night and just barely dawn.

Whedon definitely had controlled lighting but he, unthinkingly, didn't account for the fact that the suit wasn't designed for that kind of lighting.

 

[herolee10]

Every day, I come across another fan video that shows why Warner Bros and Elfman should be ashamed of what they did with JL:

[YT]fNnBaYMM2qQ[/YT]