The Last of Us

[Havok83]

Oh okay. I was talking in context within the game. We never murdered anyone besides that one example towards the end as far as I can recall. He of course did shady stuff in the gap

 

[ProjectPat2280]

Oh okay. I was talking in context within the game. We never murdered anyone besides that one example towards the end as far as I can recall. He of course did shady stuff in the gap

Haha speaking of, did anyone else [BLACKOUT]murder the holy s**t out of those doctors and nurses when saving Ellie? [/BLACKOUT] [BLACKOUT]I mean I blasted all of em, point blank, with the shotty. Even after they cowered down and started crying about not wanting to die, I pulled the trigger.[/BLACKOUT]

 

[Spider-Who?]

Self defense is not murder. You cant ever just walk past another enemy in the game and not have them whip out their guns or weapons to try and kill you. If the A.I. was built so that they would only attack if you were acting hostile, that would be a different story but everyone was aggressive and out to kill. What should Joel do? Just let he and Ellie be killed? Its self preservation and did what he did to protect himself. The only "murder" committed in the game by him would be at the end but I wont spoil that. That was unnecessary and could have been avoided.

Joel is a murderer. Yes, he has to kill people in self-defense, but there are times in the game where he straight up murders (three) unarmed people, comes close to murdering another unarmed character, and he even admits to Ellie that he has killed innocent people in the past. The thing is, that due to the circumstances, we don’t blame him – we cheer him on, even – but it doesn’t change the fact that he is a cold blooded murderer. I'm not complaining about that - he adapted to the situation to survive, but in the way that Shane "adapted" in The Walking Dead, which I actually give tons of credit to Naughty Dog for - they made what is actually an almost despicable character extremely human.

that wasn't important to the story of TLOU. Would have made a great DLC package, but they went in a different route for that. Within the narrative that was presented, I dont feel they needed to show us the adventures of Joel, Tommy and Tess. It would have been oddly placed and paced. Telling us was fine. Gamers dont need their hands held every step of the way. There was enough information given to infer what kind of life they had led prior to the story picking back up after the prologue

I’m not saying we should have had several hours of “The Joel, Tess and Tommy Show” (dlc would have been awesome though). You are right – it’s fine the way it is, and I enjoyed Joel playing coy and making comments that hinted at things he had done in the past…I just feel like there could have been a less abrupt way of showing the change in Joel in the 20 year gap. It could have been something as simple as after the “20 years later” title card, having Joel wake up from a nightmare that consisted of flashes of the preceding years – that way, we know right off the bat that he’d been through hell and resorted to bad actions (with it being framed as a nightmare showing that his actions haunt him). As it currently stands, we feel sympathy for Joel’s loss, and then immediately see him yelling at Tess for getting beat up and nearly killed - that's a damn ruthless SOB. It was just too jarring and dramatic of a change, IMO. The game is fantastic as is – this is just a “woulda been nice if…” thing for me.

 

[Havok83]

Joel is a murderer. Yes, he has to kill people in self-defense, but there are times in the game where he straight up murders (three) unarmed people, comes close to murdering another unarmed character, and he even admits to Ellie that he has killed innocent people in the past. The thing is, that due to the circumstances, we don’t blame him – we cheer him on, even – but it doesn’t change the fact that he is a cold blooded murderer. I'm not complaining about that - he adapted to the situation to survive, but in the way that Shane "adapted" in The Walking Dead, which I actually give tons of credit to Naughty Dog for - they made what is actually an almost despicable character extremely human.

I'll take your word for it bc again its been so long since I played. I'll disagree that Joel's despicable though. Kratos he is not. Context plays a big part and its not like he got any pleasure from killing or just did it callously for the heck of it. Its all about survival in this world and its kill or be killed. He's likely been in enough sticky situations in the last 20 years that he knows he simply can not trust most strangers as he's nearly been killed several times himself

I’m not saying we should have had several hours of “The Joel, Tess and Tommy Show” (dlc would have been awesome though). You are right – it’s fine the way it is, and I enjoyed Joel playing coy and making comments that hinted at things he had done in the past…I just feel like there could have been a less abrupt way of showing the change in Joel in the 20 year gap. It could have been something as simple as after the “20 years later” title card, having Joel wake up from a nightmare that consisted of flashes of the preceding years – that way, we know right off the bat that he’d been through hell and resorted to bad actions (with it being framed as a nightmare showing that his actions haunt him). As it currently stands, we feel sympathy for Joel’s loss, and then immediately see him yelling at Tess for getting beat up and nearly killed - that's a damn ruthless SOB. It was just too jarring and dramatic of a change, IMO. The game is fantastic as is – this is just a “woulda been nice if…” thing for me.

We knew he went through hell the preceding years just by looking at him when he woke up. As you mention, he's different, noticeably hardened and cold. That was the point and I thought the transition was perfect and they didn't need to add anything preceeding this. Its not like ND abandoned an explanation bc it was quite clear from that moment things had changed drastically for him and the whole point of that part of the game with Tess was to slowly ease us into the new Joel. It may have seemed jarring at first but there was tons of characterization in this part of the game. Through the conversations, little bits of back story, how he reacts to other NPCs, we get more insight into Joel.

 

[Bobber]

I just feel like there could have been a less abrupt way of showing the change in Joel in the 20 year gap. It could have been something as simple as after the “20 years later” title card, having Joel wake up from a nightmare that consisted of flashes of the preceding years – that way, we know right off the bat that he’d been through hell and resorted to bad actions (with it being framed as a nightmare showing that his actions haunt him). As it currently stands, we feel sympathy for Joel’s loss, and then immediately see him yelling at Tess for getting beat up and nearly killed - that's a damn ruthless SOB. It was just too jarring and dramatic of a change, IMO. The game is fantastic as is – this is just a “woulda been nice if…” thing for me.

That's exactly the kind of cheesy storytelling technique I'm thrilled Naughty Dog didn't resort to.

 

[ProjectPat2280]

Joel is a murderer. Yes, he has to kill people in self-defense, but there are times in the game where he straight up murders (three) unarmed people.

When and who? I don't recall that at all.

[BLACKOUT]And if you mean the doctors at the end of the game, I hardly consider that murder seeing as how they were about to cut a little girls brain apart.[/BLACKOUT]

 

[ProjectPat2280]

That's exactly the kind of cheesy storytelling technique I'm thrilled Naughty Dog didn't resort to.

Yea there was plenty of hints that detailed the kinds of things Joel had been through. We didnt need it laid out for us. Joel is a person in this new world, based on the things he has said and the things we see happen around us, its easy to make conclusions as to what Joel had to go through in the 20 year gap we didnt actually see. You don't live 20 years in a world like that being a saint, you just don't.

 

[Havok83]

When and who? I don't recall that at all.

[BLACKOUT]And if you mean the doctors at the end of the game, I hardly consider that murder seeing as how they were about to cut a little girls brain apart.[/BLACKOUT]

if he's talking about the end game, I already acknowledged that when it came to Joel and him "murdering". [BLACKOUT]Marlene would be the only exception as he could have just left her on the ground and drove away.[/BLACKOUT] There really are no instances where we see him just killing innocents in the 17 hours before that unless again, if Im not recalling things correctly.

 

[Spider-Who?]

That's exactly the kind of cheesy storytelling technique I'm thrilled Naughty Dog didn't resort to.

It was just a "top of my head" example for the quickest and easiest way - I'd prefer something meatier and less cliche.

 

[Spider-Who?]

Yea there was plenty of hints that detailed the kinds of things Joel had been through. We didnt need it laid out for us. Joel is a person in this new world, based on the things he has said and the things we see happen around us, its easy to make conclusions as to what Joel had to go through in the 20 year gap we didnt actually see. You don't live 20 years in a world like that being a saint, you just don't.

It's not about it needing to be "laid out" or even getting "all the answers" for me so much as it is simply wanting to experience some of it.

When and who? I don't recall that at all.

Spoiler

Including Marlene, he tortures and kills two of the goons he has tied up when he's looking for Ellie. Yes, we could consider it "justified" given the situation (hell, I cheered him on, even), but the fact is that they were unarmed, beaten, and tied up when he killed them. It wasn't self-defense at that point. And take note that I didn't say he killed three innocent people, but three unarmed people. It's an important distinction.

Joel also nearly murders the guy (forget his name) who saved them from drowning, simply because he was pissed off at being left behind on the bridge.

^^^ It's not a compaint - just an observation. It's an important part of his character and growth - the depths he'll go to protect the girl whom he at first wanted nothing to do with.

 

[ProjectPat2280]

Spoiler

Including Marlene, he tortures and kills two of the goons he has tied up when he's looking for Ellie. Yes, we could consider it "justified" given the situation (hell, I cheered him on, even), but the fact is that they were unarmed, beaten, and tied up when he killed them. It wasn't self-defense at that point. And take note that I didn't say he killed three innocent people, but three unarmed people. It's an important distinction.

Joel also nearly murders the guy (forget his name) who saved them from drowning, simply because he was pissed off at being left behind on the bridge.

Spoiler

Ah yea I got ya. I consider what he did there to be heroic acts.

Had he not of killed those people he interrogated, they could of come back to kill him and or Ellie, or warned the others. Plus, THEY WERE GOING TO EAT ELLIE, or some other poor little kid they snatched.

And yea, he threatened to kill Henry because Henry left him and Ellie to die. Henry could have helped him and Ellie, but decided not to. It was just Joels way of reminding Henry that choices have consequences.

 

[ProjectPat2280]

It's not about it needing to be "laid out" or even getting "all the answers" for me so much as it is simply wanting to experience some of it.

Yea I got ya. I think a story section where we see or play in the world in the moments after Joels loss could have been pretty neat.

 

[Havok83]

Spoiler

Joel also nearly murders the guy (forget his name) who saved them from drowning, simply because he was pissed off at being left behind on the bridge.

^^^ It's not a compaint - just an observation. It's an important part of his character and growth - the depths he'll go to protect the girl whom he at first wanted nothing to do with.

I just looked that up on YT and Joel didn't nearly murder anyone in that scene. [BLACKOUT]He pushed him and then pulled his gun out. There was no indication that Joel was going to shoot. The two talked it out and Joel left him alone
[/BLACKOUT]

Spoiler

Ah yea I got ya. I consider what he did there to be heroic acts.

Had he not of killed those people he interrogated, they could of come back to kill him and or Ellie, or warned the others. Plus, THEY WERE GOING TO EAT ELLIE, or some other poor little kid they snatched.

And yea, he threatened to kill Henry because Henry left him and Ellie to die. Henry could have helped him and Ellie, but decided not to. It was just Joels way of reminding Henry that choices have consequences.

Spoiler

That and it was either shoot or physically fight them and he didn't have time for that. There were dozens of Fireflies with guns out to stop him from taking Ellie. If he lost any more time, it would have resulted in his and/or Ellie's death. It was a very heated situation which he didn't have time to handle much differently. I kind of feel like if Joel had just taken Ellie, the doctor would have run up behind him and stabbed him with a knife, given the FF's time to properly execute him and they'd proceed with Ellie's surgery

 

[ProjectPat2280]

Spoiler

That and it was either shoot or physically fight them and he didn't have time for that. There were dozens of Fireflies with guns out to stop him from taking Ellie. If he lost any more time, it would have resulted in his and/or Ellie's death. It was a very heated situation which he didn't have time to handle much differently. I kind of feel like if Joel had just taken Ellie, the doctor would have run up behind him and stabbed him with a knife, given the FF's time to properly execute him and they'd proceed with Ellie's surgery

Spoiler

Ya know, by then, I was just SOOOO tired of everyone I came across being complete and total a**holes. First it was Roberts guys, then it was the Hunters, then it was the cannibals and finally the damn fire flies. Like damn I just want to meet a decent set of damn ppl. When you finally make it to the FF you think, OK these ppl might be ok, then nope, we're gonna chop Ellie up to get the stuff in her brain. I just was over it then, I killed all of the doctors out of frustration.

 

[CapedCrusader14]

Spoiler

Ya know, by then, I was just SOOOO tired of everyone I came across being complete and total a**holes. First it was Roberts guys, then it was the Hunters, then it was the cannibals and finally the damn fire flies. Like damn I just want to meet a decent set of damn ppl. When you finally make it to the FF you think, OK these ppl might be ok, then nope, we're gonna chop Ellie up to get the stuff in her brain. I just was over it then, I killed all of the doctors out of frustration.

Spoiler

Tommy and his people seemed perfectly good to me.

 

[Wolvieboy17]

Finished this game again, for probably the 4th time... It's still just as fantastic as ever.

You know, as much as I hate the idea of an Uncharted movie, I still think Last of Us is such a fantastic story, it would make an excellent film.

I mean, the game will always be better, but it could still make a great film. Josh Brolin for Joel, fo shizzle.

 

[Oscorp]

Hugh Jackman for Joel!

 

[Wolvieboy17]

He'd be good, he has the look... Although I absolutely hear Brolin's voice sometimes with Joel. He could do the gruff, completely internalised anguish of Joel to a tee.

 

[Benstamania]

If they do a sequel.. Which is something I still feel is I unneeded... The. I hope they go with Ish.

Spoiler

it would be cool to play as Ish from the moment he comes in from sea.. Doing all that he and his group did to survive and then beyond the point where they had to leave the others behind in the sewers. From there it could span months or years after.

Joel and Ellie's story is over.. I don't want to play as adult Ellie or really old man Joel.. Their story ended perfectly... And that's all I want from them.

Again...IF we get a sequel. Which deep down.. I kind of hope we don't.

 

[Benstamania]

Spoiler

Ah yea I got ya. I consider what he did there to be heroic acts.

Had he not of killed those people he interrogated, they could of come back to kill him and or Ellie, or warned the others. Plus, THEY WERE GOING TO EAT ELLIE, or some other poor little kid they snatched.

And yea, he threatened to kill Henry because Henry left him and Ellie to die. Henry could have helped him and Ellie, but decided not to. It was just Joels way of reminding Henry that choices have consequences.

Spoiler

if Joel would have let them live.. They would have come back and killed him. That's how it works.. It's like in Saving Private Ryan. They should have killed the POS Nazi they captured but instead Tom Hanks listened to Umpem and they pretty much all ended up paying for it.

They may have been tied up and unarmed but their intentions were clear. They were killers and they would kill Joel, Ellie or someone else if left alive.

Also, what he did to Henry I feel was justified too. If you pretty much let someone to die.. That magically doesn't go away when you feel bad and suddenly decide to pull them out of the river. I would have kicked the dudes ass too.

IMHO Joel isn't a bad guy.. Just a survivor. Sure he may have to do questionable things but in a world like TLOU.. It's you it them. Seriously.. And outside of Tommy and his Fortress of Solitude everyone in the damn game we come across is a scum bag that more or less deserves their fate.

I don't even feel bad for what happened to the fireflies. Mankind doesnt hold a candle to those I love.. Sorry but "for the greater good" can kiss it.

 

[Wolvieboy17]

I still think the ending and the moral ambiguity of it all is one of the best endings I've ever played in a game. It challenges what I think and which character I side with every single time I play it.

This game also looked so damn good remastered, I would LOVE a remastered Uncharted Trilogy pack on PS4.

 

[Benstamania]

Yeah. I was in the fence about this game looking any better.. But damn if it isn't one of the best looking "next gen" games I've seen to date.

And that's saying something for a remastered PS3 game. Uncharted Trilogy NEEDS (and I can bet will happen soon) and the 4th is going to look absolutely ridiculous.

 

[Upset Spideyfan]

Spoiler

Having finished the game: Due to his actions at the end Joel in my eyes is a monster, but that doesn't necessarily mean he's a malicious or evil one. The real betrayal at the end is that deep down he knows Ellie wanted to sacrifice herself and took her away because it was he wanted.

If Ellie had wanted to live, Joel's rescue of her would have been more heroic. Considering his background what he did is totally understandable from an emotional perspective but it is also totally selfish. For as horrible a thing Marlene was doing she was ultimately playing the numbers game and making what was a sane and rational choice. Even from their compromised position she's on much firmer moral ground than he is.


Also related, Joel is a terrible liar. He should have just said the place got overrun by Infected before they could begin the operation and he barely managed to escape with her. What he told her was rife with contradictions.

All in all, a pretty fantastic game. My enjoyment of the Uncharted series has always been a little lukewarm, but save for the Tess segment I was engrossed in this.

 

[Benstamania]

Spoiler

Ellie became part of Joel's family..his kid pretty much. The world doesn't mean a damn next to your kids. Plus Ellie is 14.. Hardly mature enough (and as "grown up" as she comes off.. She's still very much a child) so IMHO she doesn't get to choose if she lives or dies for "the sake of humanity" which, IMHO.. Is pretty ******.

She became a daughter to Joel.. And he already lost one due to this stupid plague... And he'll be damned if he loses another one to "save a world" that, quite frankly.. Ain't worth saving. I don't care how "sane" saving the human race sounds.. I would choose my family every time. Sorry.. World already went to pot.. Just because there's a "cure" 20 years later doesn't mean it will get better. Game already proved that what was left of humanity was worse than the infected.

 

[Upset Spideyfan]

Spoiler

Like I said I understand and totally get and even empathize with why he made the decision he made but Joel knows that she's not just a kid. If she was still very much a child she never would have survived Winter.

And the game showed there was still a lot out there worth saving: Henry and Sam, Ish and his community, Jamestown. The infection was killing good people while twisting the rest of humanity into something ugly to survive. Joel knew Ellie would have wanted to lay down her life to stop that and decided to override her wishes for the sake of hanging onto her.

If at least he had the guts to tell her the truth that would be something but a lot of the selfish overtones of his decision become apparent when he can't bring himself to be honest with her.

Like I said I don't think that makes him evil but at the end of the day Joel is at best no better than Marlene and the Fireflies.