The Official Avengers Thread (Heroic Age Bendis/JRJR) - Part 1

[Anubis]

All you really need to become a "God" is for people weaker than you to worship you....so....technically, she is a Goddess.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Nope, gods are a distinct race in the Marvel universe. So she's a fraud, like Havok said. The fraudess of weather, if you will.

 

[Anubis]

Nooo, they are a race of beings created by sentient planets as protectors or whatever. That's what they are. But they weren't "Gods" until people started worshiping them.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Sure they were. They just weren't given forms similar to the gods people worshiped until people worshiped them. Which is all moot to Storm, who was born out a woman's vajay-jay and given form by human DNA.

 

[Anubis]

Sooo, what you're saying is they essentially have the Earth X origin of "Gods" then.......

 

[TheCorpulent1]

No, they have the one from Thor Annual #10. Read it and get back to me.

 

[moraldeficiency]

I don't think a person born of a man and a woman can count as a god unless they do something to radically change themselves. She's just a type of human. Worship alone shouldn't be the criteria or any telepath would count as would purple man and anything that has the power to make people worship them. The ancient roman emperors despite all they tried and who they made worship them weren't gods, same with the egyptians.

 

[JewishHobbit]

Sooo, what you're saying is they essentially have the Earth X origin of "Gods" then.......

That's what I was thinking. Man... how I loved Earth X. Potentially my favorite comicbook story of all time.

 

[KingMob]

I agree. Its definitely one of my favorites.

 

[Anubis]

Sure they were. They just weren't given forms similar to the gods people worshiped until people worshiped them. Which is all moot to Storm, who was born out a woman's vajay-jay and given form by human DNA.

No, they have the one from Thor Annual #10. Read it and get back to me.

No, what you're saying is that the planet created them, but they were formless until people gave them form. Well, the difference between that, and what Earth X had, was that they were just aliens who had gone threw the same celestial process as humans and the Skrulls but reached the final stage of their guided evolution, where they would become whatever people thought of them, and they appeared before ancient Norse or Egyptian or whatever people and turned into whatever they thought they were. Specifically for the Asgardians, it was just some Norse *****e who made himself Odin.

That's kinda the same thing, except instead of aliens, they're......formless God stuffs given form by humans beliefs instead.

Either way that doesn't matter. The term "God" is man made. Therefore, it applies to whoever you worship as a God. So, Storm is a Goddess. Tuff **** if you disagree.

 

[terry78]

One thing that kind of bugs me is, what exactly is Storm's mutant power based in? She's able to control polarities or what? It's not supernatural, she is a mortal, I never really got a full blown explanation regarding that.

 

[kguillou]

There are alot of mutant powers that don't really make sense as "mutations" . To me, a mutation is a physical abnormality like growing blue fur, or having bone claws. Controlling the weather is just a super power not unlike Thor or the rest of the marvel heroes. What always got me was how do the people of the MU know how to differentiate who's a mutant and who's just a guy with superpowers like Captain America. For all they know, Cap could be a mutant.

 

[moraldeficiency]

What always bothered me is that storm could control cosmic storms even though they have nothing to do with terrain based weather. It's like her real mutant power is control over anything called storms no matter what they were actually based on.

 

[moraldeficiency]

No, what you're saying is that the planet created them, but they were formless until people gave them form. Well, the difference between that, and what Earth X had, was that they were just aliens who had gone threw the same celestial process as humans and the Skrulls but reached the final stage of their guided evolution, where they would become whatever people thought of them, and they appeared before ancient Norse or Egyptian or whatever people and turned into whatever they thought they were. Specifically for the Asgardians, it was just some Norse *****e who made himself Odin.

That's kinda the same thing, except instead of aliens, they're......formless God stuffs given form by humans beliefs instead.

Either way that doesn't matter. The term "God" is man made. Therefore, it applies to whoever you worship as a God. So, Storm is a Goddess. Tuff **** if you disagree.

If so then does it count if people currently no longer see you as a god. For example do those old egyptian pharaohs still count as gods cause they once made people worship them?

 

[Anubis]

If they didn't worship them anymore but, there are people who still worship them.

 

[moraldeficiency]

If they didn't worship them anymore but, there are people who still worship them.

So the pharoah's and roman emperors still count as gods today?

 

[Anubis]

Sure, why not.

Assuming that somebody still worships them.

You seem to be applying some special celestial significance to it, but it's just a word.

being worshiped as a God simply means, you're somebodies God. Doesn't give you powers. And only makes you special to the rubes worshiping you.

 

[moraldeficiency]

That's fair, I disagree, but if that's your criteria I can't fault you for it.

I figure a god has to be more than a man. That's how my definition goes. Someone or something that is above us in significant ways to the point that normal human interaction is possible but it would be like me talking to a dog or something. Worship to me is to arbitrary. It's easy enough to make or convince others to worship you. To me a god is a god whether they're worshipped or not. I don't need a dog to tell me I'm a human, I already know I am. If that makes sense.

 

[Anubis]

Well, by that definition, making it rain in the middle of a drought by flying up into the sky and commanding the clouds to rain kinda counts as Godhood.

 

[moraldeficiency]

Well, by that definition, making it rain in the middle of a drought by flying up into the sky and commanding the clouds to rain kinda counts as Godhood.

Nah, mutants are still humans to me so it doesn't count. It isn't that any superhuman counts only those elevated to a placement that they're just above us in every way and cannot really relate to a standard human. Storm can do one thing most other humans can't, but then so can stephen hawkings.

 

[Anubis]

Stephen Hawking can't tell a cloud to hit you with a lightening bolt.

And "God's" can totally relate to standard humans, through their effed up relationships, need to eat, love, f**k, and generally be a sentient being. What makes Asgardians any better than mutants or even humans? What makes Fandral more a God than say, Black Tom Cassiday? I mean Black Tom could turn a desolate wasteland into a garden of eden. Fandral can run kinda fast and is good with a sword.

Where is this Godhood?

 

[moraldeficiency]

Stephen Hawking can't tell a cloud to hit you with a lightening bolt.

And "God's" can totally relate to standard humans, through their effed up relationships, need to eat, love, f**k, and generally be a sentient being. What makes Asgardians any better than mutants or even humans? What makes Fandral more a God than say, Black Tom Cassiday? I mean Black Tom could turn a desolate wasteland into a garden of eden. Fandral can run kinda fast and is good with a sword.

Where is this Godhood?

Unlike storm he could actually understand how that lightning bolt works. He has abilities that storm will never be able to fathom, the same as storm does to him. Extraordinary is extraordinary but they aren't gods.

They can relate the way I can relate to a dog. Dog's have the same relationships, the same needs and wants as I do, but it's just on different levels.

I would say at a certain point extreme age can make one a god. That level of experience and knowledge is just beyond. Fandral would be like a grown man to black tom's one year old. Just a different level entirely.

An Asgardian or an Olympian has literally seen mankind evolve from the birth of logic to them internets. They've also done so with abilities (strength, speed, stamina, immunity to most diseases as a standard that almost no human could ever aspire to experiencing).

Godhood is about being at a level a human is not. Storm is a mutant. Turn a few genetic markers in any human and they can do what storm can do. Turn a few genetic markers off storm and she's just a hot chick.

 

[Anubis]

So, Immortality makes you a God? (And lets face it, none of these "Gods" are really Immortal, they're kinda immortal. They don't age and as long as nobody kills them they'll live virtually forever.)

Cuz Vandal Savage is immortal. Is he a God?

Superman is potentially immortal..and he can do a hell of a lot more than most Gods I've seen...how about him?

About the whole comparison between humans and dogs, well, that's not really the same thing. Is a dog aware of who and what it is? Honestly, we don't really know. But we do know, from actually seeing these beings operate within this little made up comic universe that they aren't any different than humans. Not really. Just a bit more hearty. Functionally immortal. But truly Immortal? No. They die just like everybody else.

Going by this definition of "Gods" I don't think most of the ones called Gods in the MU really deserve the title. Celestials? Galactus? Eternity? They fit the definition more than Fandral, Set, or even Odin.

 

[moraldeficiency]

So, Immortality makes you a God? (And lets face it, none of these "Gods" are really Immortal, they're kinda immortal. They don't age and as long as nobody kills them they'll live virtually forever.)

Cuz Vandal Savage is immortal. Is he a God?

Superman is potentially immortal..and he can do a hell of a lot more than most Gods I've seen...how about him?

About the whole comparison between humans and dogs, well, that's not really the same thing. Is a dog aware of who and what it is? Honestly, we don't really know. But we do know, from actually seeing these beings operate within this little made up comic universe that they aren't any different than humans. Not really. Just a bit more hearty. Functionally immortal. But truly Immortal?

I think the beings that are called "Gods" in the MU don't really deserve the title. Celestials? Galactus? Eternity? They fit the definition more than Fandral, Set, or even Odin.

I would say given enough time as an immortal you would achieve godly status by your perspective whether mortal or not. Again it's how much more you are than someone else. So a thousand year old would have more experience and understanding than any living person has had or ever will. To him/her even an old person now would be an infant in comparison. You could speak to an infant and even interact, but it's just not on the same level.

Vandal Savage I think would count, yes.

To humans, yes I think superman would count as a god.

Mind you I think you don't follow that I'm only talking about gods as defined by humans. There would have to be other stratospheres and levels amongst gods from there on. For example silver surfer would definitely fit my conception as a god to humans but for him galactus would be a god. I see it like this. To a one celled organism algae would be a god, to algae a fish would be, to a fish etc, etc. Higher life forms taking the place of gods to the lower. I don't see mutants as gods. Extraordinary humans sure but not there yet. Perhaps a stepping stone.

We don't know a dogs level of awareness sure. I don't think all gods know everything about humans either. In truth they would care about as much as we care if a dog is aware. Would it be interesting to find out? Sure. But really we're too busy doing higher being stuff to really have much of a desire to know. Most of our work with dogs or other lower life forms involve using them to test out things that would benefit us. Playing god if you will.

I would refer the last point to my silver surfer comparison. To the one celled organism pretty much everything is a god. But each always seem to have something vastly above them.

 

[Anubis]

I would say given enough time as an immortal you would achieve godly status by your perspective whether mortal or not. Again it's how much more you are than someone else. So a thousand year old would have more experience and understanding than any living person has had or ever will. To him/her even an old person now would be an infant in comparison. You could speak to an infant and even interact, but it's just not on the same level.

Vandal Savage I think would count, yes.

To humans, yes I think superman would count as a god.

Mind you I think you don't follow that I'm only talking about gods as defined by humans. There would have to be other stratospheres and levels amongst gods from there on. For example silver surfer would definitely fit my conception as a god to humans but for him galactus would be a god. I see it like this. To a one celled organism algae would be a god, to algae a fish would be, to a fish etc, etc. Higher life forms taking the place of gods to the lower. I don't see mutants as gods. Extraordinary humans sure but not there yet. Perhaps a stepping stone.

I can understand that, and really, that's kind of my point with Storm. Cuz I think that when you get right down to it, Mutants, particularly omega class mutants, would in fact count as Gods to humans. Hell, she gets bit by a vampire, and boom. Immortal on top of being a mutant. So in another 1,000 years, would she qualify? By your definition, I'd say so.

We don't know a dogs level of awareness sure. I don't think all gods know everything about humans either. In truth they would care about as much as we care if a dog is aware. Would it be interesting to find out? Sure. But really we're too busy doing higher being stuff to really have much of a desire to know. Most of our work with dogs or other lower life forms involve using them to test out things that would benefit us. Playing god if you will.

And what would this higher level stuff be? Most Asgardians are farmers, warriors, merchants, and smiths. Hardly higher level s**t.