Batman Returns The Official Batman Returns Thread - Part 4

[Naked Shia]

Dini's strength is characterization most of the time, so indeed, I think he does get these characters. That said, each crator has his own take, and not all of them appreciate every take, and sometimes, their reasons are really personal.

 

[The Joker]

Alan Grant certainly gets Batman, and wrote one of the best runs in Detective Comics, and he doesn't think Burton got Batman right in either of his movies. Same with Matt Wagner. It's still their opinions and doesn't make their dislike of Burton's movies more valid than Smith's.

I don't think you have to be a Batman fanboy to judge a movie as good or bad, which was what Smith was doing with Returns. If he didn't appreciate the imagery or see substance where others did, it doesn't make his opinion invalid. The comments he made as a Batman fan about how off characterizations were as Batman adaptions, were valid. I mean DeVito and Burton even publicly stated they deliberately made Penguin as different from the comics as possible.

 

[Penguin]

I like Kevin’s commentaries on the Burton and Schumacher films, but can’t say I agree with him. I still like the movies even if they have flaws excluding Batman & Robin.

Dini's strength is characterization most of the time, so indeed, I think he does get these characters. That said, each crator has his own take, and not all of them appreciate every take, and sometimes, their reasons are really personal.

Ever since I listened to Smith and Dini talk, I’ve been looking out for stuff that involves Dini on podcasts. He’s very creative and has a great understanding of Batman from what I’ve seen. I enjoy hearing him talk about the Joker and Harley specifically.

 

[Leenie]

I listened to Smith's commentaries for all of the Burton and Schumacher movies. Didn't agree with all of what he said (especially in regards to Batman '89), but I did have some laughs listening to him nonetheless.

Smith is cracking jokes mostly because he has to fill time into full-length commentaries ... And also because he wants to be entertaining for the listeners. That's kind of what he does; he cracks jokes. I take his jokes very lightly, and I thought most of them were quite funny. The whole "Schumacher did it first, Nolan!" jokes during his Batman & Robin commentary were cracking me up.

That said, I do think that Batman Returns is a messy movie in terms of story and focus. As a character movie, though, I think it's good. And it's a beautiful-looking movie, too.

 

[Naked Shia]

Alan Grant certainly gets Batman, and wrote one of the best runs in Detective Comics, and he doesn't think Burton got Batman right in either of his movies. Same with Matt Wagner. It's still their opinions and doesn't make their dislike of Burton's movies more valid than Smith's.

I don't think you have to be a Batman fanboy to judge a movie as good or bad, which was what Smith was doing with Returns. If he didn't appreciate the imagery or see substance where others did, it doesn't make his opinion invalid. The comments he made as a Batman fan about how off characterizations were as Batman adaptions, were valid. I mean DeVito and Burton even publicly stated they deliberately made Penguin as different from the comics as possible.

I think everyone has valid reasons to like or not like those movies, regardless of them being writers or not. so in that regard, I agree with you.

That doesn't mean I should care for their opinion though.

Penguin was a different take, but he still has important elements from the character. Same goes for batman.

 

[Kane52630]

http://kane52630.tumblr.com/post/124819686144/batman-returns

 

[regwec]

 

[The Joker]

I think everyone has valid reasons to like or not like those movies, regardless of them being writers or not. so in that regard, I agree with you.

That doesn't mean I should care for their opinion though.

No you don't have to care for anyone's opinion, that wasn't the point.

Penguin was a different take, but he still has important elements from the character. Same goes for batman.

It depends on what you mean by important elements. If you mean things like umbrellas and love for birds, it's like saying Arnie's Mr. Freeze had the important elements like his sick wife whom he was trying to save, his freeze gun, can't survive out of sub zero temperatures etc.

 

[Travesty]

You guys really hate Kevin Smith.

 

[Naked Shia]

No you don't have to care for anyone's opinion, that wasn't the point.



It depends on what you mean by important elements. If you mean things like umbrellas and love for birds, it's like saying Arnie's Mr. Freeze had the important elements like his sick wife whom he was trying to save, his freeze gun, can't survive out of sub zero temperatures etc.

no, I'm talking about him coming from a rich family and trying to act like a gent, when he's actually not much more than a mere crook who doesn't fit with his family. I know he was a true gentleman of crime when he was created, but I do think this take is an interesting twist on his gentleman play. he was basically a mirror (albeit a twisted one) to batman, the same way oswald is a twisted mirror for bruce in a lot of comics (including Layman's tec, or even the batman animated show).

You guys really hate Kevin Smith.

I don't hate him. I think he's quite funny and nice. But I also don't like his work that much.

 

[Kane52630]

His recent stuff is god awful.

 

[Naked Shia]

I also don't like that he doesn't seem to be able to write a story without having the lady in distress being killed in front of the hero. He's lady-in-the-fridge-man.

 

[The Joker]

no, I'm talking about him coming from a rich family and trying to act like a gent, when he's actually not much more than a mere crook who doesn't fit with his family. I know he was a true gentleman of crime when he was created, but I do think this take is an interesting twist on his gentleman play. he was basically a mirror (albeit a twisted one) to batman, the same way oswald is a twisted mirror for bruce in a lot of comics (including Layman's tec, or even the batman animated show).

He didn't come from a rich family in the comics. His family owned a small bird shop, which is where Oswald made friends with birds as a child. His father died of pneumonia after being caught in a rain storm, and that's when his mother forced him to carry an umbrella everywhere, which is where the umbrella obsession came from. In Returns he wasn't trying to act like a gent because he believed he was like in the comics. It was a scam Max Schreck came up with so he could make Oswald Mayor and thereby get his crooked power plant green lit. Schreck, or to be more exact his image consultants, even came up with the top hat and Victorian style suit Oswald wore for that running for Mayor portion of the movie. As soon as Batman foiled that, he was back in the sewers ripping off his fancy clothes and wearing that filthy onesie again.

Btw how was he a mirror for Bruce in BTAS?

 

[Naked Shia]

He didn't come from a rich family in the comics. His family owned a small bird shop, which is where Oswald made friends with birds as a child. In Returns he wasn't trying to act like a gent because he believed he was like in the comics. It was a scam Max Schreck came up with so he could make Oswald Mayor and thereby get his crooked power plant green lit. Schreck even came up with the top hat and Victorian style suit Oswald wore for that running for Mayor portion of the movie. As soon as Batman foiled that, he was back in the sewers ripping off his fancy clothes and wearing that filthy onesie again.

Btw how was he a mirror for Bruce in BTAS?

Oswald has several origins in the comics, I'm not talking about the golden age penguin in this instance.

In returns Max scam still plays with the fact that the cobblepot family was a rich one though.

I was refering to the batman, not BTAS.

 

[The Joker]

Oswald has several origins in the comics, I'm not talking about the golden age penguin in this instance.

That was his origin right up until 2013. It didn't change, they just added elements to it, like the whole thing with the bully, Sharkey, who tormented him as a child.

In returns Max scam still plays with the fact that the cobblepot family was a rich one though.

How?

I was refering to the batman, not BTAS.

I'm confused. You said "he was basically a mirror (albeit a twisted one) to batman, the same way oswald is a twisted mirror for bruce in a lot of comics (including Layman's tec, or even the batman animated show).

 

[Naked Shia]

That was his origin right up until 2013. It didn't change, they just added elements to it, like the whole thing with the bully, Sharkey, who tormented him as a child.



How?



I'm confused. You said "he was basically a mirror (albeit a twisted one) to batman, the same way oswald is a twisted mirror for bruce in a lot of comics (including Layman's tec, or even the batman animated show).

I was convinced the rich family stuff was there after the first crisis. my bad then. Thanks to you I learnt something today.

I meant that Max decided to put the scam the way he did because the cobblepot family was a rich one, which is why he used the gentleman imagery.

I'm talking about this show: https://www.google.fr/search?q=the+...oTCJujkae58cYCFco9FAodYIUKtQ&biw=1680&bih=957.

which is why I said animated show, ad not animated series.

So in the end, they kept some of the imagery (like you said, the top hat, the umbrellas), and changed his origins and a lot of his persona indeed. That makes you right.
That said, I still think it's a fascinating take on the character, and I do like the way the wealthy family stuff made its way to the comics. For instance, Hurwitz pain and prejudice is kind of a matchup between penguin first origins and burton's take, and it makes him a complex and interesting character.

 

[The Joker]

I was convinced the rich family stuff was there after the first crisis. my bad then. Thanks to you I learnt something today.

No prob. Pengy is my second fav Batman villain. He's been underrated for years, ironically it happened just after Returns, which should have boosted his popularity after being in a movie.

But he was absent for pretty much the next three years in the comics, even leaving him out of the whole Knightfall storyline, and then when they eventually brought him back it was as a boring casino owner.

Thankfully in the last few years he's been getting back on top again, with the comics (Penguin Pain and Prejudice in particular. Read it if you haven't already. Penguin is so scary in it), the Arkham games, and the Gotham TV show.

I meant that Max decided to put the scam the way he did because the cobblepot family was a rich one, which is why he used the gentleman imagery.

I don't ever recall him saying anything like that. It was obvious they were just trying to make Penguin look presentable as a candidate because his regular clothing was horrendous.

"Research tells us that voters like fingers" lol. I still want to know how she expect to get five fingered gloves on his flipper hands.

I'm talking about this show: https://www.google.fr/search?q=the+...oTCJujkae58cYCFco9FAodYIUKtQ&biw=1680&bih=957.

which is why I said animated show, ad not animated series.

Oh The Batman cartoon. Sorry when people say the Batman animated show it usually means BTAS.

I can't stand that show, so if they tried to make Bruce and Penguin mirror images of each other, then I'll take your word for it. I couldn't watch more than a few episodes. Their ape looking barefoot straightjacket Joker was the last straw for me.

 

[Naked Shia]

No prob. Pengy is my second fav Batman villain. He's been underrated for years, ironically it happened just after Returns, which should have boosted his popularity after being in a movie.

But he was absent for pretty much the next three years in the comics, even leaving him out of the whole Knightfall storyline, and then when they eventually brought him back it was as a boring casino owner.

Thankfully in the last few years he's been getting back on top again, with the comics (Penguin Pain and Prejudice in particular. Read it if you haven't already. Penguin is so scary in it), the Arkham games, and the Gotham TV show.

I don't ever recall him saying anything like that. It was obvious they were just trying to make Penguin look presentable as a candidate because his regular clothing was horrendous.

"Research tells us that voters like fingers" lol. I still want to know how she expect to get five fingered gloves on his flipper hands.
Oh The Batman cartoon. Sorry when people say the Batman animated show it usually means BTAS.
I can't stand that show, so if they tried to make Bruce and Penguin mirror images of each other, then I'll take your word for it. I couldn't watch more than a few episodes. Their ape looking barefoot straightjacket Joker was the last straw for me.

Max definitely didn't say that, that just me assuming.

Man, I'm sorry, I wanna answer you, because it's an inetresting talk, but I have to go. I will post a full answer tomorrow!

 

[Rocketman]

Oh The Batman cartoon. Sorry when people say the Batman animated show it usually means BTAS.

I can't stand that show, so if they tried to make Bruce and Penguin mirror images of each other, then I'll take your word for it. I couldn't watch more than a few episodes. Their ape looking barefoot straightjacket Joker was the last straw for me.

Agreed. As a fan, I tell myself that I should watch this show and give it a chance, but I can't get past 90% of the choices they made on that show, lol. I can't even stand Batman's look. The design of his body is fine, but his mask and horns and eyes look absolutely horrendous. What were they thinking?

 

[The Joker]

Max definitely didn't say that, that just me assuming.

Man, I'm sorry, I wanna answer you, because it's an inetresting talk, but I have to go. I will post a full answer tomorrow!

Agreed. As a fan, I tell myself that I should watch this show and give it a chance, but I can't get past 90% of the choices they made on that show, lol. I can't even stand Batman's look. The design of his body is fine, but his mask and horns and eyes look absolutely horrendous. What were they thinking?

I always thought Bruce Wayne on that show looked like Jackie Chan lol.

 

[Two-Face]

He did lol

I enjoyed some things in The Batman but mostly I hated the designs of the characters. I don't think Harvey Dent/Two-Face show up in the series but I liked Det Allen and Det Yang (spelling?) it was strange Gordon wasn't in from the start. I Liked Conroy voicing Dick Grayson's father it was a nice touch of the producers oh and I didn't like sports car Batmobile. The Batsuit was ok I guess.

 

[Elevator Man]

I remember back in day the critics/detractors of "The Batman" animated show nicknaming it "BatChan". I don't hate the show. I thought it was decent as a whole, but B:TAS it definitely ain't.

 

[Decepticonus]

I remember back in day the critics/detractors of "The Batman" animated show nicknaming it "BatChan". I don't hate the show. I thought it was decent as a whole, but B:TAS it definitely ain't.

Well I think we all need to understand it is NOT trying to be TAS and it was designed with kids in mind. Whereas TAS was produced to be dark and kinda take after the Burton films at the time, but still for kids.

 

[Kane52630]

The Batman is a perfectly fine batman show on its own, the problem is people kept comparing it to BTAS and that's where you see the divide.

 

[Cain]

I didn't see all of The Batman. Just the seasons with Batgirl and Robin & the DC team up/Brave & The Bold season both which I enjoyed. What I will say is that I think that The Batman Vs. Dracula was an underrated gem. Probably the best thing to come from that incarnation.