The Official Batman Returns Thread - Part 2

[Doc Ock]

The more i think about it, i guess i dont mind Alfred letting her in the cave, he has his moments where he really tries to do what's best for Bruce even if he doesn't like it. My problem is the fact that Vicki has like zero reaction to the cave or him being Batman.

I watched it the other day and that is something I really had a problem with, or couldn't stop thinking about afterwards. I didn't mind Alfred letting her in the cave either but the lack of any reaction from her bothered me. Sure it could of happened off-screen I can believe that but it doesn't change the fact it happened...off-screen.

 

[shauner111]

Vicki's first reaction might have happened off-screen when Alfred told her. Then again. Basinger is not a very good actress.

 

[Human Torch]

They didn't acknowledged how bad it was. they just acknowledged it.

I think they felt the need to acknowledge it by virtue of the fan backlash it got.Even Sam Hamm said it wasn't the best idea.

I mean,Vicki was in town specifically to get the story on Batman.It's kind of a stretch logically to trust her with such a secret on the strength of a drunken night spent in Wayne Manor.

 

[SonOfMim]

I'm not sure if Vicky knew, but surely she wanted some serious explanation from Bruce. And Alfred spent the movie trying to make Bruce accept Vicky in his life by revealing his identity to her. So when Bruce failed at it (at Vicky's apartment) and Vicky went there, Alfred simply concluded what Bruce had started.

Well that's what I said, Vicki figured it out as the film went on. I don't think Alfred just "let her into the cave" on a whim.

 

[Senator Pleasury]

I think they felt the need to acknowledge it by virtue of the fan backlash it got.

But is it true?

Even Sam Hamm said it wasn't the best idea.

Sam Hamm? The guy who didn't want Batman to have a cape?

I mean,Vicki was in town specifically to get the story on Batman.It's kind of a stretch logically to trust her with such a secret on the strength of a drunken night spent in Wayne Manor.

Yeah, and she kind of have a major impact on Bruce's life. And seemed like an honest person that, according to Alfred, wasn't going to stop until she got to the truth, which wasn't going to take too long, being Bruce's girl.
Better have her on your side.

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Well that's what I said, Vicki figured it out as the film went on. I don't think Alfred just "let her into the cave" on a whim.

You said it's obvious. I say it's a possibility, as it wasn't explicit in the movie.

 

[milost]

The Vicki reaction thing was Ebert's beef with the movie. In fact, I recall that's all he talked about during the time of Batman's release.


She does have a reaction though,


"I think your friend Wayne is really screwed up."

"Poor kid watched the whole thing happen right in front of him."

What's her reaction? Shock, disbelief, confusion, sadness. Then she storms out and leaves while Knox says, "don't get personal".

She does get personal though because the next scene she's in, she's in the Batcave, literally THANKING Alfred for letting her in. There's her reaction. She knew.


Vale put the whole thing together. Remember, Knox isn't the one that went looking for the information on Crime Alley, that was VALE. She was stalking Wayne since the beginning of the film. Throughout the whole story she was gathering up evidence about Bruce, the irony is that Knox and Vicki wanted to figure out who Batman was, and he was right there in their midst. In that scene where she see's the look (take it away Travesty), Vicki Vale puts it together, it's all in her face.

So we do see her reaction. The only thing "missing" I guess is something like this,

 

[The Endless]

lol thats hilarious. I think Vicki suspected Bruce was Batman. Just because there was no dialogue explaining it doesn't mean it isn't there for you to see and figure out. I mean she wakes up in the middle of the night and he's there, hanging upside down like a frickin bat at one point in the film.

 

[Kane52630]

 

[Senator Pleasury]

The Vicki reaction thing was Ebert's beef with the movie. In fact, I recall that's all he talked about during the time of Batman's release.


She does have a reaction though,


"I think your friend Wayne is really screwed up."

"Poor kid watched the whole thing happen right in front of him."

What's her reaction? Shock, disbelief, confusion, sadness. Then she storms out and leaves while Knox says, "don't get personal".

She does get personal though because the next scene she's in, she's in the Batcave, literally THANKING Alfred for letting her in. There's her reaction. She knew.

I can buy this.

Spoiler

 

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

Bravo, Milost!

Excellent post. Just because Burton doesn't spell it out scene by scene with all the exposition in the world... doesn't mean we don't have the clues to connect the dots.

 

[Travesty]

 

[chintai80]

i think the burton batman movies were pretty revolutionary for their time.
yea, there was some cheese and jumps in logic to it, but there wasn't really such a "dark" superhero movie before. plus they are great fun to watch.

i should watch returns again, and to admire the art and set designs. it's like a german expressionist film in color. plus the whole movie really shows just how lonely a guy bruce wayne is.

 

[BatLobster]

Haha, great post milost.

The Vicki plotline never bothered me all that much to be honest. I think the reason this became such a sticking point is because fans just tend to think of the secret identity thing as this super sacred, impenetrable thing (hence all the backlash over the Blake thing too). Even though it's pretty blatantly implied in the movie that Vicki is able to piece it together on her own, I think a lot of fans at the time just refused to even entertain the notion that Vicki could just simply deduce Batman's identity and therefore just jumped to blaming Alfred for letting her into the cave.

 

[Elevator Man]

Almost thought I went into the B89 thread by mistake.

Vicki's first reaction might have happened off-screen when Alfred told her. Then again. Basinger is not a very good actress.

Her Oscar win says different.

 

[shauner111]

To milost, it has nothing to do with exposition. Im fine with them not saying a damn word to each other, it's about the expression on her face which is completely blank, unbothered. Like she just saw him at some magazine store and she wanted to talk to him about something. Like completely unaware that she's in a cave.....batman's cave. I dont know if that was Vale's fault for a bad performance in that scene or poor direction by Burton.

 

[milost]

But, uhhh, the problem with that is, she was there already and actually did make that face.

I might be wrong but I think I recall her almost stumbling off the ledge until Batman tells her to be careful. She looks plenty surprised to me.

Making her do that again would not only be redundant, but would make her look completely stupid. She was THERE before, right at that computer console. She KNOWS he's Batman. She's there to question him about his crusade, talk him out of it, get him to tell her he loves her, etc. not, "woah, you're Batman, this cave is awesome". She's past the "figuring out" stage. She KNOWS Bruce Wayne is Batman. Why would the cave or Bruce sitting in there working surprise her? That doesn't make any sense.

I'll tell you what's great in that scene though, how bewildered and uncomfortable Bruce Wayne looks. It's almost like he just got caught in the act. He doesn't know whether to **** or wind his watch, get mad or leave. When I was looking for screen caps for the pics above, Keaton looks genuinely annoyed with Vicki Vale.

 

[shauner111]

Ummm no. She doesn't know he's Batman. If she does, they did a horrible job with it. Bruce/Keaton's reaction was great though.

 

[milost]

Ummm no. She doesn't know he's Batman. If she does, they did a horrible job with it.

Why doesn't she know.

 

[Ponyboy]

Ummm no. She doesn't know he's Batman. If she does, they did a horrible job with it. Bruce/Keaton's reaction was great though.

You're being willfully obtuse shauner. Vicki's delving into old Brucey throughout the entire film. She's a reporter for Christsake. Look, she's supposed to meet "Bruce" at the museum and gets rescued by Batman.
Then, Bruce comes to her to tell her about his "complex life" and she's assaulted by Joker, and Bruce magically escapes from the gunshot?
Finally, Knox shows her the old papers about Waynes parents being murdered. And Knox says, "What do you suppose something like that does to a kid?"...Duhhh, turns him into Batman perhaps? Let's not be boneheads here - Vicki knew by that point.

 

[The Endless]

That's what i like about Batman 89. People say it isn't an origin story, but it kinda is. It's just done in a way where we uncover the mystery that is Batman along with Vicki.

 

[Human Torch]

But is it true?

Yup

Sam Hamm? The guy who didn't want Batman to have a cape?

Yeah,also the same Sam Hamm that wrote the movie that had Joker kill Batman's parents and had Batman kill with impunity.Even a stopped clock gets it right twice a day.t:t:

Yeah, and she kind of have a major impact on Bruce's life. And seemed like an honest person that, according to Alfred, wasn't going to stop until she got to the truth, which wasn't going to take too long, being Bruce's girl.
Better have her on your side.

Still doesn't make much sense when you know the girl is trying to get the story on Batman for Knox,and you allow her in on a secret of that magnitude.It isn't like he knew her for years and years.Alfred must've been a darn good judge of character.

 

[BatLobster]

I will say, even though milost's argument is convincing...given the writer's strike situation with all the Act 3 re-writes happening during filming, it wouldn't surprise me if even Burton himself didn't have a definitive stance on whether or not the scene with Vicki and Knox was actually meant to convey that she KNEW knew.

Either way, it's kind of funny that Burton allowed the "who let Vicki into the Batcave?" joke into BR (annnd we're back on topic), which takes the fanboy side and blames Alfred entirely.

 

[The Shape]

That's what i like about Batman 89. People say it isn't an origin story, but it kinda is. It's just done in a way where we uncover the mystery that is Batman along with Vicki.

Yes. That's one of my favorite things about B89. It's like a reverse origin story, where we learn bits and bits of info about Bruce/Batman until we get that one, crucial flashback.

I'm confident that this new interpretation of Batman in BvS will follow that structure.

 

[The Joker]

milost, are you a stand up comedian in your spare time? That post was freakin' HILARIOUS lol.

 

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

I can't believe that any fan of 89 wouldn't know that by the time Knox shows Vicki the news articles that she connects for herself that Bruce is Batman, it's a pretty obvious part of the film.

That and why is there a huge 89 discussion in the Batman Returns thread, did someone switch the threads?