Batman Returns The Official Batman Returns Thread - Part 4

[Goshdarn Batman]

Absolutely gorgeous.

As critical as I am of this film, I cannot deny that.

Yes.

 

[Elevator Man]

I always liked that shot where Batman pulls up. Elfman's music perfectly sets up the tone and atmosphere in this scene and the scene following it.

 

[Herofan]

The problem for me is how the Penguin is portrayed, and what Tim Burton is trying to say. Are we really supposed to feel sorry for the Penguin? Don't get me wrong, I'm a pretty forgiving person and all that, everyone needs a second or third chance and all that stuff (hell, I've done a lot of stupid and illegal stuff myself when I was a teenager, stuff I'll regret till the day I croak). But there's nothing likeable about the Penguin at all. The only time I feel sorry for him is when his parents throw him in the water. For the rest of the movie he's just pure evil...

Is Burton trying to say that the Penguin is angry because they way he was treated? That people didn't accept him? They do accept him the very moment he rises from the sewers! And then he ruins it all by being a jerk...

It's perfectly understandable when the Gothamites chase him away. The man is dangerous. He brought it all on himself. It's not like he's a poor, misunderstood guy like the Elephant Man.

When the Penguin dies at the end, and the sad music plays...are we really supposed to feel bad for him? The music tells me it's sad, but logic tells me "who gives a damn, he's a deformed (but still prettier) version of Osama bin Laden". He doesn't show any remorse either.

That's an interesting, fair critique but I thought we were not supposed to feel sorry for him (aside from the prologue), he had a tragic background but was still a despicable character, in part for trying to manipulate people through sympathy. His death and "funeral" seem to be emphasizing that his background was sad, that a lot of other people had been and were villainous too, rather than that he wasn't a real bad villain.

What I'm trying to say is that the movie is way too nihilistic. Burton seems to me to be a moral relativist, he creates a world there are no real heroes, and nobody's right or wrong. I don't like stuff like that...I watch superhero movies to root for the goodguys. There's no real moral to be found in this story.

Burton does feel some sympathy for some of his villains and is pretty anti-establishment but I thought there was moral in the story, with Catwoman objecting to the killing of the Ice Princess and coming to feel conflicted and even regretful about killing Max (though she still went through through with it, but perhaps in part because he shot Batman) and Batman changing his view on killing (although that should have been clearer and more developed).

 

[Goshdarn Batman]

That's an interesting, fair critique but I thought we were not supposed to feel sorry for him (aside from the prologue), he had a tragic background but was still a despicable character, in part for trying to manipulate people through sympathy. His death and "funeral" seem to be emphasizing that his background was sad, that a lot of other people had been and were villainous too, rather than that he wasn't a real bad villain.

A new member, how excitingt: welcome!

Maybe, I'm not sure...sometimes it's hard to understand what Burton wants in his movies. I read somewhere that Burton said that he "rarely sees people as either good or bad" or something like that, but at the same time a lot of stuff in his movies contradict this position. Like in Edward Scissorhands, where the bullies are clearly evil.

Burton does feel some sympathy for some of his villains and is pretty anti-establishment but I thought there was moral in the story, with Catwoman objecting to the killing of the Ice Princess and coming to feel conflicted and even regretful about killing Max (though she still went through through with it, but perhaps in part because he shot Batman) and Batman changing his view on killing (although that should have been clearer and more developed).

That's true, but I don't think it's clear enough. I have the same problem with how Batman acts after the death of the Ice Princess too. He says he tried to save her, but I don't get the feeling that he's really sorry for her death, if you know what I mean? She's never mentioned again.

And I think it's strange that Catwoman teams up with the Penguin to kill Batman to begin with.

 

[Herofan]

I think Batman was sincere in regreting she died/he couldn't save her but it is a fault of the Burton movies that he didn't receive more focus and I think he does, especially in BR, have his heart more into fighting and punishing the villains than protecting the innocent. I think BF did pretty well in making Batman both dark and heroic.

Catwoman instantly wanting to kill Batman because he beat her in a fight is definitely sudden and a bit awkward (especially since she was generally more of an antivillain) but she seems especially and more quickly conflicted about that.

 

[TMC1982]

Did Danny DeVito really deserve a Razzie nomination for his performance as the Penguin!?

 

[Goshdarn Batman]

I think Batman was sincere in regreting she died/he couldn't save her but it is a fault of the Burton movies that he didn't receive more focus and I think he does, especially in BR, have his heart more into fighting and punishing the villains than protecting the innocent. I think BF did pretty well in making Batman both dark and heroic.

Yeah, that could be the problem. Had Batman been the main character then maybe there would have been more time to explore it.

I agree with you on Batman Forever (which is probably my favorite Batman movie). It's the first movie where we get to know Batman a little better.

I know I'm in the minority, but I would have liked it if they just continued the series after Batman & Robin, just like they did with James Bond, instead of rebooting all of it.

Did Danny DeVito really deserve a Razzie nomination for his performance as the Penguin!?

No, he did a good job as a mutated pervert. Nothing wrong with his acting.

 

[Herofan]

Did Danny DeVito really deserve a Razzie nomination for his performance as the Penguin!?

Some Razzie nominations really are for the worst of a category but I think most of them are really about piling on and further mocking what's been the most memorably embarrassing, a status that can come about when a huge star does something that doesn't quite live up to the hype they got in general or for the specific film rather than because it's actually bad.
DeVito gave a great performance as the character, one of the best acting jobs of the year rather than the worst.

I agree with you on Batman Forever (which is probably my favorite Batman movie). It's the first movie where we get to know Batman a little better.

I think it's average but still the second-best of the old series (after BR) and it is nice to have one where Batman pretty much is the lead and focus rather than the villains (although even there it's close).

I know I'm in the minority, but I would have liked it if they just continued the series after Batman & Robin, just like they did with James Bond, instead of rebooting all of it.

Robin being old enough to go to college practically demands a movie with the Scarecrow as the villain.

 

[Decepticonus]

The razzies are ******ed. They usually nominate and award what are already known as poor performances and movies that even the general audience knows. They show up just to over-state it, but DeVito...

I dunno? To be fair not a huge DeVito fan. But given all the material he was given to work with in this film, even though I despise the character the performance was good.

 

[StarLord]

By Patrick Connan

 

[The Joker]

^ They're fantastic. I wish Penguin had used the cigarette holder, and worn the monocle more in the movie. Would have made him look more Penguin-y.

 

[Decepticonus]

^ They're fantastic. I wish Penguin had used the cigarette holder, and worn the monocle more in the movie. Would have made him look more Penguin-y.

Agreed, they should just be used more often even outside of Batman in general.

 

[Goshdarn Batman]

^ They're fantastic. I wish Penguin had used the cigarette holder, and worn the monocle more in the movie. Would have made him look more Penguin-y.

Yeah, that disappointed me as a kid...I had some stickers from a Batman chewing gum that showed him with the cigarette holder and the monocle. The chewing gum was black/gray, by the way.

 

[Decepticonus]

Yeah, that disappointed me as a kid...I had some stickers from a Batman chewing gum that showed him with the cigarette holder and the monocle. The chewing gum was black/gray, by the way.

Pfftt, of course it was. So it was truly Burton approved?

 

[Goshdarn Batman]

Burton made every piece of gum by himself. Nightly in the attic...while the moon was rising in the sky.

Burton: "If I'm too rough, tell me. I'm so scared your little head will come off in my hands! *cuts pieces of rubber from a Batman doll with his scissorhands and melts them into chewing gum*"

He's crazy!

 

[Decepticonus]

Burton made every piece of gum by himself. Nightly in the attic...while the moon was rising in the sky.

Burton: "If I'm too rough, tell me. I'm so scared your little head will come off in my hands! *cuts pieces of rubber from a Batman doll with his scissorhands and melts them into chewing gum*"

He's crazy!

Out of context this sounds wrong on so many levels.

 

[AnneFan]

Yeah, that disappointed me as a kid...I had some stickers from a Batman chewing gum that showed him with the cigarette holder and the monocle. The chewing gum was black/gray, by the way.

I don't mind their use of the Penguin iconography. I see it that this Penguin is a cold blooded animal, with the props more about creating a friendlier image to the voting public. He grew to like the lifestyle, "a touch of the bubbley?", but he eventually reverted to his old ways.

 

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

From the latest issue of Catwoman. Awesome stuff:

 

[jaymes_e06]

Beautiful.

 

[Young Superman]

Michelle Pfeiffer, the best Selina Kyle / Catwoman ever.

 

[Hunter Rider]

Is that from issue #48 or #49?

 

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

Issue #48.

Also...

 

[Goshdarn Batman]

I thought the young woman was Pfeiffer for a moment

 

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

He finally came! This just became my favorite figure of my collection.

 

[Greens]

Looks like they morphed Keaton and Bale when they sculpted the face. Love the cowl, though.