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Batman Returns The Official Batman Returns Thread - Part 4

Batman Returns and its Christmas scenery

http://kane52630.tumblr.com/post/135446192665/batman-returns-christmas-scenery

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What filter did you use on those? It looks weird.
 
....That is literally the first time I've seen Batfreak be critical about anything that wasn't a critical fanboy.
 
Kane52630 you usually do a fantastic job with gifs but I just didn't like those ones but keep up the good work. Keep them coming.
 
I'm sorry to say this, but I'm starting to dislike Batman Returns the more times I see it. It looks "beautiful", but doesn't make much sense at all. Even for a fairy tale.

It was my favorite Batman movie when I was 15 years old.
 
Will always be one of my personal favorites, watched it the other night as my yearly annual Christmas celebration.
 
I'm sorry to say this, but I'm starting to dislike Batman Returns the more times I see it. It looks "beautiful", but doesn't make much sense at all. Even for a fairy tale.

It was my favorite Batman movie when I was 15 years old.

It's crap. Yeah looks good but Burton had no idea how to tell a story here. I like what one contemporary review of 1992 said in Entertainment Weekly,

"Burton still hasn't figured out how to tell a coherent story: He's more interested in fashioning pretty beads than in putting them on a string...."

Burton had no interest in making a film, in telling a story. There's no character to empathize with, there's no bridge between the acts. You're in car driving but where? why? who's driving? It was more of a portfolio piece for Burton and his visual style.
 
I won't use the word "crap", it's hard enough for me to admit that the movie is flawed!:funny: after all, it used to be my favorite Batman film. I still love some parts of it...Michael Keaton is always a pleasure to watch, the visuals are amazing (the shot with Bruce Wayne in the chair and the batsignal is probably one of the best things I've ever seen in a movie) and the music is fantastic. I get chills everytime I hear the music during the opening credits.

My problem isn't that the Penguin is deformed, or that Catwoman becomes a karate champion after being pushed out of a window. I like weird and nonsensical stuff like that in movies. I'm not a big fan of "realistic" comic book movies.

The problem for me is how the Penguin is portrayed, and what Tim Burton is trying to say. Are we really supposed to feel sorry for the Penguin? Don't get me wrong, I'm a pretty forgiving person and all that, everyone needs a second or third chance and all that stuff (hell, I've done a lot of stupid and illegal stuff myself when I was a teenager, stuff I'll regret till the day I croak). But there's nothing likeable about the Penguin at all. The only time I feel sorry for him is when his parents throw him in the water. For the rest of the movie he's just pure evil...

Is Burton trying to say that the Penguin is angry because they way he was treated? That people didn't accept him? They do accept him the very moment he rises from the sewers! And then he ruins it all by being a jerk...

It's perfectly understandable when the Gothamites chase him away. The man is dangerous. He brought it all on himself. It's not like he's a poor, misunderstood guy like the Elephant Man.

When the Penguin dies at the end, and the sad music plays...are we really supposed to feel bad for him? The music tells me it's sad, but logic tells me "who gives a damn, he's a deformed (but still prettier) version of Osama bin Laden". He doesn't show any remorse either. "Damn it, I picked the cute one!" He tried to kill Batman to the very end. And even though Batman acts like a psychopath in the movie (takes pleasure in murder), his actions to stop the Penguin are justifiable.

I have never been a very big fan of Catwoman in this movie either, to be honest. So nothing has changed there. She always freaked me out as a kid. Pure psycho...one moment she seems so sweet, and in the next she cuts Batman in the face. I know that it's intentional, but still. She's more sympathetic than the Penguin, though.

What I'm trying to say is that the movie is way too nihilistic. Burton seems to me to be a moral relativist, he creates a world there are no real heroes, and nobody's right or wrong. I don't like stuff like that...I watch superhero movies to root for the goodguys. There's no real moral to be found in this story.

Even Batman & Robin which is considered a crappy movie had a moral. I feel more bad for Mr Freeze than the Penguin. He tries to destroy the world, but it's clear that what he's doing is wrong, and in the end he's redeemed. Spoiler.

I didn't view the movie in this way as a kid. As a kid, Batman was a pure-hearted hero, the Penguin was a jerk and Catwoman...well, she was a still a psycho. But now as an adult, I see things in a different light, and it frightens me a bit.

This movie shows that studio interference is not always a bad thing. I understand why Warner Bros told Tim Burton to take his hands away from Batman and gave the third movie to Schumacher.

Sorry for the long post, and if I offend anyone it's not intentional.
 
I won't use the word "crap", it's hard enough for me to admit that the movie is flawed!:funny: after all, it used to be my favorite Batman film. I still love some parts of it...Michael Keaton is always a pleasure to watch, the visuals are amazing (the shot with Bruce Wayne in the chair and the batsignal is probably one of the best things I've ever seen in a movie) and the music is fantastic. I get chills everytime I hear the music during the opening credits.

My problem isn't that the Penguin is deformed, or that Catwoman becomes a karate champion after being pushed out of a window. I like weird and nonsensical stuff like that in movies. I'm not a big fan of "realistic" comic book movies.

The problem for me is how the Penguin is portrayed, and what Tim Burton is trying to say. Are we really supposed to feel sorry for the Penguin? Don't get me wrong, I'm a pretty forgiving person and all that, everyone needs a second or third chance and all that stuff (hell, I've done a lot of stupid and illegal stuff myself when I was a teenager, stuff I'll regret till the day I croak). But there's nothing likeable about the Penguin at all. The only time I feel sorry for him is when his parents throw him in the water. For the rest of the movie he's just pure evil...

Is Burton trying to say that the Penguin is angry because they way he was treated? That people didn't accept him? They do accept him the very moment he rises from the sewers! And then he ruins it all by being a jerk...

It's perfectly understandable when the Gothamites chase him away. The man is dangerous. He brought it all on himself. It's not like he's a poor, misunderstood guy like the Elephant Man.

When the Penguin dies at the end, and the sad music plays...are we really supposed to feel bad for him? The music tells me it's sad, but logic tells me "who gives a damn, he's a deformed (but still prettier) version of Osama bin Laden". He doesn't show any remorse either. "Damn it, I picked the cute one!" He tried to kill Batman to the very end. And even though Batman acts like a psychopath in the movie (takes pleasure in murder), his actions to stop the Penguin are justifiable.

I have never been a very big fan of Catwoman in this movie either, to be honest. So nothing has changed there. She always freaked me out as a kid. Pure psycho...one moment she seems so sweet, and in the next she cuts Batman in the face. I know that it's intentional, but still. She's more sympathetic than the Penguin, though.

What I'm trying to say is that the movie is way too nihilistic. Burton seems to me to be a moral relativist, he creates a world there are no real heroes, and nobody's right or wrong. I don't like stuff like that...I watch superhero movies to root for the goodguys. There's no real moral to be found in this story.

Even Batman & Robin which is considered a crappy movie had a moral. I feel more bad for Mr Freeze than the Penguin. He tries to destroy the world, but it's clear that what he's doing is wrong, and in the end he's redeemed.
Spoiler.

I didn't view the movie in this way as a kid. As a kid, Batman was a pure-hearted hero, the Penguin was a jerk and Catwoman...well, she was a still a psycho. But now as an adult, I see things in a different light, and it frightens me a bit.

This movie shows that studio interference is not always a bad thing. I understand why Warner Bros told Tim Burton to take his hands away from Batman and gave the third movie to Schumacher.

Sorry for the long post, and if I offend anyone it's not intentional.

1.) Agree on Keaton, the visuals and that particular scene. The music... is good in some spots until that damn carnival music kicks in. I get it, there's a circus gang but that doesn't mandate circus inspired music, I'm sorry. The music goes from somber, dark, melancholy to downright juvenile cause it's not even creepy carnival music.

2.) I never thought of the deformity or karate stuff. And yeah, realistic can be annoying sometimes. My complaint was her origin in general just always confused me. Did she die and the cats revive? Was she alive all along and the cats just woke her up? And now she has 9 lives and I dunno cat powers? I didn't need a long drawn out origin here, some basic exposition here and it can be goofy like... she was bitten by radioactive cats that escaped Shreck's testing laboratory, great, at least it explains.... something!

3.) Yeah Penguin sucks. He's basically a poon hound, there's no reason to like him at all, Full agreement there.

4.) Nihilistic, yes. Thank you, I never could find the word, but yes. This is also a problem I have with it. Mind you, I do not mind sad endings as long as there is something to take away with it like Schindler's List. I don't care for endings like Requiem For a Dream or Revolutionary Road, and Batman Returns fits into this. Where the ending is sad, dark and downright negative. I didn't take anything away, no moral, no lesson just emptiness and I need to reach for a bottle of Zanax.

5.) I've grown to like B&R more than Returns. Don't get me wrong, B&R still sucks. At least B&R attempts to tell a story, we know what the villains want... to some degree. It's straight forward-ish as good versus evil, here is the villain, here is the hero, this is their plan now hero stop them. If you want to make it more complex, fine BUT learn basic story telling. In Returns stuff just happens for um... uh... reasons and the characters just go along with it.
 
2.) I never thought of the deformity or karate stuff. And yeah, realistic can be annoying sometimes. My complaint was her origin in general just always confused me. Did she die and the cats revive? Was she alive all along and the cats just woke her up? And now she has 9 lives and I dunno cat powers? I didn't need a long drawn out origin here, some basic exposition here and it can be goofy like... she was bitten by radioactive cats that escaped Shreck's testing laboratory, great, at least it explains.... something!

4.) Nihilistic, yes. Thank you, I never could find the word, but yes. This is also a problem I have with it. Mind you, I do not mind sad endings as long as there is something to take away with it like Schindler's List. I don't care for endings like Requiem For a Dream or Revolutionary Road, and Batman Returns fits into this. Where the ending is sad, dark and downright negative. I didn't take anything away, no moral, no lesson just emptiness and I need to reach for a bottle of Zanax.

5.) I've grown to like B&R more than Returns. Don't get me wrong, B&R still sucks. At least B&R attempts to tell a story, we know what the villains want... to some degree. It's straight forward-ish as good versus evil, here is the villain, here is the hero, this is their plan now hero stop them. If you want to make it more complex, fine BUT learn basic story telling. In Returns stuff just happens for um... uh... reasons and the characters just go along with it.

2. To this day, I'm really not sure. As a kid I thought she died and the cats brought her back to life, and that she was a ghost/zombie...which really creeped me out. Not because it was supernatural, but because Batman fell in love with a "Corpse Bride":hehe:

But I think the cats just woke her up, or they woke up her repressed persona or something like that. The nine lives stuff is worse. Can't explain it. It's inspired by German expressionist movies like The Cabinet of Dr Caligari, which is pretty surreal and messed up. It's probably not supposed to make sense, just give you a headache or nightmares.

4. Yeah, I can watch sad movies too, but in the end, truth and goodness must win. Batman defeated the Penguin, everything else went down the crapper. Everyone died violently. I know, Catwoman is standing on top of the building at the end, the batsignal and all that crap...but that was added in the last minute because everything was so depressing.

I felt better when Batman 89 ended. It's not a perfect movie, but it's "Batmanier" than Returns. And even though Batman kills enemies, it's not like he enjoys doing it. It can be seen as self defense. The Joker is defeated, the girl is saved and Gotham is safe. It's more optimistic. And Gotham City is bigger...the Returns version makes me hyperventilate just by thinking about it.

5. I actually like Batman & Robin for what it is, but I agree.

Wow, I really hate to be negative, but I'm just trying to be honest.
 
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2. To this day, I'm really not sure. As a kid I thought she died and the cats brought her back to life, and that she was a ghost/zombie...which really creeped me out. Not because it was supernatural, but because Batman fell in love with a "Corpse Bride":hehe:

But I think the cats just woke her up, or they woke up her repressed persons or something like that. The nine lives stuff is worse. Can't explain it. It's inspired by German expressionist movies like The Cabinet of Dr Caligari, which is pretty surreal and messed up. It's probably not supposed to make sense, just give you a headache or nightmares.

4. Yeah, I can watch sad movies too, but in the end, truth and goodness must win. Batman defeated the Penguin, everything else went down the crapper. Everyone died violently. I know, Catwoman is standing on top of the building at the end, the batsignal and all that crap...but that was added in the last minute because everything was so depressing.

I felt better when Batman 89 ended. It's not a perfect movie, but it's "Batmanier" than Returns. And even though Batman kills enemies, it's not like he enjoys doing it. It can be seen as self defense. The Joker is defeated, the girl is saved and Gotham is safe. It's more optimistic. And Gotham City is bigger...the Returns version makes me hyperventilate just by thinking about it.

5. I actually like Batman & Robin for what it is, but I agree.

Wow, I really hate to be negative, but I'm just trying to be honest.

Nah, it ain't negative at all. But yeah I didn't need her "origin" to make sense per se, it could be as stupid as possible as long as something was explained.

Batman killing.... I honestly don't mind. It it out of character, after the first year of Batman during the golden age, give or take. But the scene with dynamite down the guy's pants and the grin - love it.

But yeah, there were like 18 people there for the tree lighting. If that happened in NY, then hell Christmas would like be canceled.
 
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But yeah, there were like 18 people there for the tree lighting. If that happened in NY, then hell Christmas would like be canceled.

:hehe:

1. Speaking of tree lighting, I have always disliked the part where the Ice Princess is killed...it upset me as a kid. I couldn't stand it when women died violent deaths in movies. I still don't like it, because it makes Batman look like a jerk.

He's just standing there while she's "attacked" by bats. He doesn't move before she's already over the edge...and then he just stands there again, looking over the edge. What happened to your grappling gun, Batman?

2. Then there's the Penguin again. Why is he so damn horny? "I'd like to fill her void...show her my (something)!" Ugh...and those grunting and panting sounds. I'm kind of surprised that Tim Burton didn't show us scenes of Oswald *********ing (sorry).

3. Batman is suddenly against killing. I know, he changes his mind about killing evildoers, probably because he sees himself in Selina and all that..but it's not entirely clear. It would have been better if they showed it through conversations with Alfred in my opinion.

Oh well, merry Christmas to you all.
 
:hehe:

1. Speaking of tree lighting, I have always disliked the part where the Ice Princess is killed...it upset me as a kid. I couldn't stand it when women died violent deaths in movies. I still don't like it, because it makes Batman look like a jerk.

He's just standing there while she's "attacked" by bats. He doesn't move before she's already over the edge...and then he just stands there again, looking over the edge. What happened to your grappling gun, Batman?

2. Then there's the Penguin again. Why is he so damn horny? "I'd like to fill her void...show her my (something)!" Ugh...and those grunting and panting sounds. I'm kind of surprised that Tim Burton didn't show us scenes of Oswald *********ing (sorry).

3. Batman is suddenly against killing. I know, he changes his mind about killing evildoers, probably because he sees himself in Selina and all that..but it's not entirely clear. It would have been better if they showed it through conversations with Alfred in my opinion.

Oh well, merry Christmas to you all.

Damn we're gonna keep this up for a while.

1.) Her death never bothered me, or this whole women dying thing in general I get it but never suffered from it. But yeah Batman looks like a complete incompetent fool. Watch it again he just walks, more or less stumbles up to the ledge she's on. And yeah looks over like "oh darn". And Penguin more or less announces himself, comes from behind going "LAWN DART" forgive me but real Batman would hear that, turn out and batarang the umbrella out of the ****er's hand.

2.) Yeah that stuff flew over my head as a kid. Now I get them... but don't at the same time. I know what he means by "fill her void" but honestly, who says that? It's not sexy or even funny, but just stupid. And he referred to his dick as a parasol. REALLY?!?!

3.) Never thought of that, but good point. My guess is he doesn't know at the time that Walken killed her and that sense she just brought a gun to the party to find him and kill him. Where each time he killed someone was self-defense or was a crook intent to do harm to someone else. I get why he didn't want her killing him at the end, basically saying he ain't worth it, just come home with me, it'll be better that way.

But now that I think about it, this could have made for some interesting story telling. Let's erase all the killing in Returns from Batman, he did turn a new leaf. A lot of people and myself look at his opening scene as a guy who just sits and broods, just waiting for the Bat signal, his life revolves around that now. He's not running Wayne Enterprises or doing playboy billionaire stuff. He got his vengeance but he's stuck in this life wanting to dish our more vengeance. Think the whole speech Kilmer gives in Forever. And then Catwoman shows up who is a vigilante crime fighter (kinda like her first scene) in the alley and no blowing up the department store. Anyways, she's fighting muggers and what not but kills them. It ends up in the papers, and Batman is like "I need to check this out." Confronts her and, well you can take it off from there.
 
Decepticonus:

1. Yes, it's like he doesn't really want to save people, or he's afraid to embarrass himself.

Civilian: "heeelp, some crazy guy in a banana costume is trying to stab me with a screwdriver!"

Batman: "Don't move! I have to think...I could just try to...(interrupted by screaming and crazy laughter)"

Fat guy with hat: "Batman pushed the pri...stabbed the old man!"


2. Most of it went over my head when (I was 8 years old or something), but I understood the part where the Penguin grabs the woman's breast, and that he wants to hump Catwoman. Creepy stuff...the man is a walking penis.
 

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