The Official Boxing Thread!!! - Part 3

[STARMAN]

I'm impressed with Gonzalez's technique. Short, crisp punches. Always balanced. Seemed to have been hurt to the body at one point.

 

[Docker2.0]

If you haven't seen Chocolatito until this year, you can't really criticize him; he is as close to a perfect fighter as there is today. He beats almost everybody in both eye-test and resume.
There is no obligation to put a Haymon fighter in an arbitrary P4P list. DSG became one of my favorite fighters from the Khan fight to the Matthysse fight, but since that stretch he's done nothing but disappoint. Khan hasn't done anything impressive since the Garcia KO loss, besides beat a shopworn Devon Alexander.
Who cares about ESPN's P4P list especially. If you're going to trust any list look at The Ring's. But I'll say it again: P4P lists don't really matter.

You're right there isn't but there does seem to be an agenda, which is why I can't take ESPN or Dan Rafael seriously. And you are saying that Garcia and Khan are disappointing but what has Manny done to remain in the top 5? Dude has lost 3 out of his last 6 fights. That shows a lot about ESPN and their agenda. And before someone says that ESPN is showing PBC fights, it's also PBC that is paying ESPN to show them.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I'm not familiar with Roman Gonzalez, never heard of the guy until last year but I honestly don't see how he's ranked #1 p4p on any poll. He's exciting but lacks a lot. Also, anyone notice ESPN's P4P ranking? With the exception of Rigo, all of the top 10 are all HBO fighters! I mean, not one Al Haymon fighter is ranked in the top 10. And before someone says that ESPN plays PBC fights, PBC pays ESPN to display those fights. Garcia(despite the Salka thing)or even Amir Khan should be ranked top 10 over (yes I'm about to say it!)Manny at this point in his career.

You call yourself a boxing fan and dis Chocolatito, and then admit you have no idea what you are talking about.

What does he lack? He lacks nothing. He has the best punches in boxing, the best technique and the best resume. Guys who know what they are talking about rank him very highly. You are the one who just admitted you don't have any idea what you are talking about.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

You're right there isn't but there does seem to be an agenda, which is why I can't take ESPN or Dan Rafael seriously. And you are saying that Garcia and Khan are disappointing but what has Manny done to remain in the top 5? Dude has lost 3 out of his last 6 fights. That shows a lot about ESPN and their agenda. And before someone says that ESPN is showing PBC fights, it's also PBC that is paying ESPN to show them.

Manny doesn't have to ever fight again, and he has done enough to be ranked over Garcia and Khan.

 

[Silver Spider]

I don't care what ESPN thinks, when it comes to boxing. Besides Teddy Atlas, they know nothing about it.
I like Pac but I agree that he shouldn't be top 5.
Obviously, PBC on ESPN fights are higher level than the old Friday Night Fights. I don't know of anyone using that argument.

 

[Silver Spider]

Manny doesn't have to ever fight again, and he has done enough to be ranked over Garcia and Khan.

I think Manny is still way above Khan. And at this point he's still above DSG imo. But I think the P4P people are still giving him the benefit of the doubt at this point in his career. They did that with Maravilla between the Murray and Cotto fights as well.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I don't care what ESPN thinks, when it comes to boxing. Besides Teddy Atlas, they know nothing about it.
I like Pac but I agree that he shouldn't be top 5.
Obviously, PBC on ESPN fights are higher level than the old Friday Night Fights. I don't know of anyone using that argument.

I like Teddy Atlas, but he lets his bias show like crazy. I can get over the crazy talk and rambling, but he has a clear bias against certain fighters. The best guy on ESPN was Kieran Mulvaney, but they let him go and canned his fantastic podcast. Thankfully, he landed with HBO permanently and has another great podcast. Though sadly he isn't capable of covering non-HBO fights.

Personally, I miss the old FNF. Lower quality, but you had boxing for nearly 9 months of the year and every few weeks you'd have a good fight. Now you are left waiting months. Also it seems the PBC starts hot, but then they throw people on with cans.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I think Manny is still way above Khan. And at this point he's still above DSG imo. But I think the P4P people are still giving him the benefit of the doubt at this point in his career. They did that with Maravilla between the Murray and Cotto fights as well.

Sergio was a wreck and not capable of anything as we saw in the Cotto fight. But he was the reigning undisputed MW Champ, and hadn't lost in a good while.

I wouldn't have Manny in my top 10 P4P, but he'd be above those two. Garcia lost a lot of points fighting cans and then having that ridiculous fight with Peterson.

What would be your top 10 Silver Spider?

 

[Silver Spider]

I like Teddy Atlas, but he lets his bias show like crazy. I can get over the crazy talk and rambling, but he has a clear bias against certain fighters. The best guy on ESPN was Kieran Mulvaney, but they let him go and canned his fantastic podcast. Thankfully, he landed with HBO permanently and has another great podcast. Though sadly he isn't capable of covering non-HBO fights.

Personally, I miss the old FNF. Lower quality, but you had boxing for nearly 9 months of the year and every few weeks you'd have a good fight. Now you are left waiting months. Also it seems the PBC starts hot, but then they throw people on with cans.

Oh I agree completely that Teddy Atlas is crazy and very biased, but he knows his boxing. I love Kieran Mulvaney and have continued to follow him on the HBO podcast, but it is unfortunately that he is obligated to focus only on HBO fighters.

Talking about PBC, it's funny how some of the fights that end up being competitive are mismatches gone wrong.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Oh I agree completely that Teddy Atlas is crazy and very biased, but he knows his boxing. I love Kieran Mulvaney and have continued to follow him on the HBO podcast, but it is unfortunately that he is obligated to focus only on HBO fighters.

Talking about PBC, it's funny how some of the fights that end up being competitive are mismatches gone wrong.

Yep. It is probably because those Haymon fighters aren't all they are made up to be.

 

[Silver Spider]

Sergio was a wreck and not capable of anything as we saw in the Cotto fight. But he was the reigning undisputed MW Champ, and hadn't lost in a good while.

I wouldn't have Manny in my top 10 P4P, but he'd be above those two. Garcia lost a lot of points fighting cans and then having that ridiculous fight with Peterson.

What would be your top 10 Silver Spider?

Exactly, Sergio and Manny have stayed in Top 10 lists based on legacy at this point. That's why you can't really put too much stock in those lists. It's not like other sports where you can actually match up everyone to rank them. Like I said, P4P is very subjective.
So I don't really have a concrete list; I just casually assess different fighters of different weight classes against each other and have a genreal concept of who's high quality.

Who do you have though, just out of curiosity?

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Exactly, Sergio and Manny have stayed in Top 10 lists based on legacy at this point. That's why you can't really put too much stock in those lists. It's not like other sports where you can actually match up everyone to rank them. Like I said, P4P is very subjective.
So I don't really have a concrete list; I just casually assess different fighters of different weight classes against each other and have a genreal concept of who's high quality.

Who do you have though, just out of curiosity?

I get ya. Though I do respect the Ring P4P, just like I respect the Ring Titles at each weight class. I don't really have a list out of the top five, but thinking about it:

1. Roman Gonzalez
2. Sergey Kovalev
3. Gennady Golovkin
4. Wladimir Klitschko
5. Guillermo Rigondeaux

6. Saul Alvarez
7. Terence Crawford
8. Mikey Garcia
9. Miguel Cotto
10. Andre Ward

Mikey Garcia inactivity is starting to catch up to him, but unlike Ward it isn't his fault. Ward might be the best boxer in the world, but he has just flushed his career down the toilet.

 

[Docker2.0]

I think Manny is still way above Khan. And at this point he's still above DSG imo. But I think the P4P people are still giving him the benefit of the doubt at this point in his career. They did that with Maravilla between the Murray and Cotto fights as well.

I'm glad you understood what I was saying. I'd put Garcia over him right now due to dudes past couple of fights. As far as Roman Gonzalez, I didn't say he wasn't a good fighter, just not sure he's justified of being number one p4p. I haven't seen enough of him and I talk to tons of guys who are die-hard fans as well and haven't heard of the guy until the past couple of months. I'm also going to say this about espn. I noticed how they kept Canelo out of their top 10 p4p but once he signed with hbo he suddenly makes the cut now. His resume, though there are questionable wins, has some high marks.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I'm glad you understood what I was saying. Not sure if Darth is purposely being blind for an inside joke that he clearly on gets but I was saying Manny does not deserve to be in the top 10 p4p right now. I'd put Garcia over him right now due to dudes past couple of fights. As far as Roman Gonzalez, I didn't say he wasn't a good fighter, just not sure he's justified of being number one p4p. I haven't seen enough of him and I talk to tons of guys who are die-hard fans as well and haven't heard of the guy until the past couple of months. I'm also going to say this about espn. I noticed how they kept Canelo out of their top 10 p4p but once he signed with hbo he suddenly makes the cut now. His resume, though there are questionable wins, has some high marks.

The only joke is you commenting on Gonzalez without actually knowing him or his resume. And I don't know who these "die-hard" fans are, but it doesn't change what Chocolatito has done. Maybe watch a fight under lightweight.

You don't like Manny, I get it. That is fine. Your comments on the quality of Khan and Garcia are ridiculous however, especially considering Danny has looked straight trash since the Matthysse fight and Khan has done literally nothing since getting his head removed from his body by Garcia and losing to mediocre Peterson. I'd still pick Manny to beat Danny, and rather easily. His movement would give Garcia fits.

 

[Silver Spider]

I'very gotta see what Danny does at 147 after Paulie before I can decide.
Alot of even hardcores don't follow the really low weight classes though. I'm not going to claim to be an expert myself, but even I know about guys like Chocolatito and Estrada. The people that do follow the weight classes closely will tell you all of the champions he's and top fighters he's beaten and beaten soundly.

 

[Docker2.0]

The only joke is you commenting on Gonzalez without actually knowing him or his resume. And I don't know who these "die-hard" fans are, but it doesn't change what Chocolatito has done. Maybe watch a fight under lightweight.

You don't like Manny, I get it. That is fine. Your comments on the quality of Khan and Garcia are ridiculous however, especially considering Danny has looked straight trash since the Matthysse fight and Khan has done literally nothing since getting his head removed from his body by Garcia and losing to mediocre Peterson. I'd still pick Manny to beat Danny, and rather easily. His movement would give Garcia fits.

You caught it before I edited it. Cool. We agree to disagree. Manny has done nothing to remain in the top 10 CURRENT p4p list. He has had a great career but dude is batting .500 in his last 6 fights. And I don't get the "you don't like this guy because you criticize him" philosophy. I actually like GGG but I think he hasn't faced a name nor is he willing to build up his resume the old fashion way. I also think that Manny in his prime beats Garcia but I think DG beats Manny badly now. Dude is a shell of himself and his mind is clearly not into boxing.

 

[Silver Spider]

Darth, I can't rank Mikey since he's hasn't fought in like 80 years even if it isn't his fault.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I'very gotta see what Danny does at 147 after Paulie before I can decide.
Alot of even hardcores don't follow the really low weight classes though. I'm not going to claim to be an expert myself, but even I know about guys like Chocolatito and Estrada. The people that do follow the weight classes closely will tell you all of the champions he's and top fighters he's beaten and beaten soundly.

I am not an expert either, but I watch the relevant fights. I had to actually catch on Chocolatito last year because his fights weren't anywhere. Estrada is legit as well.

 

[Docker2.0]

I'very gotta see what Danny does at 147 after Paulie before I can decide.
Alot of even hardcores don't follow the really low weight classes though. I'm not going to claim to be an expert myself, but even I know about guys like Chocolatito and Estrada. The people that do follow the weight classes closely will tell you all of the champions he's and top fighters he's beaten and beaten soundly.

That's why I said I didn't know about him but again, I'm not saying he's a bad fighter but I'm just not sure he's top p4p. That's it. I actually think Wlad should be higher than what he is. Dude has dominated the heavyweight division for years but you don't hear about it.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Darth, I can't rank Mikey since he's hasn't fought in like 80 years even if it isn't his fault.

That is more then fair. It is why I mentioned it at the end.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

You caught it before I edited it. Cool. We agree to disagree. Manny has done nothing to remain in the top 10 CURRENT p4p list. He has had a great career but dude is batting .500 in his last 6 fights. And I don't get the "you don't like this guy because you criticize him" philosophy. I actually like GGG but I think he hasn't faced a name nor is he willing to build up his resume the old fashion way. I also think that Manny in his prime beats Garcia but I think DG beats Manny badly now. Dude is a shell of himself and his mind is clearly not into boxing.

I don't have Manny in my top 10. You are the one that made the ridiculous Haymon comment and mentioned Khan and Garcia deserved to be in the top 10. Also how generous of you to say Manny, a top 30 all time fighter, would beat Danny Garcia in his prime. Shell Manny still has better movement and Garcia struggled to handle Peterson's movement, which wasn't even good.

You are not a GGG fan. You say you are, and then bash him. You do this all the time with plenty of fighters, including Manny.

 

[Silver Spider]

Wlad is pretty underappreciated even if he's horrible to watch anymore. He should get a lot of credit he he beats Fury though.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

That's why I said I didn't know about him but again, I'm not saying he's a bad fighter but I'm just not sure he's top p4p. That's it. I actually think Wlad should be higher than what he is. Dude has dominated the heavyweight division for years but you don't hear about it.

Heavyweight is a horrible division and the one fight worth having never happened because the two guys are brothers. I am a Wlad fan, and have been for a long time. But he isn't dominating a good division, he is dominating a very bad one. I think he is past his prime now, but at his best he was a very good fighter. His dominance should put him on a P4P, though not at the top.

 

[Silver Spider]

I always liked Vitali more, personally.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I always liked Vitali more, personally.

Vitali's legit toughness made him the better fighter imo. I have no doubt who would win a fight between the two.