The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - - Part 11

[Spider-Aziz]

I can't hate on any of this trilogy movies, as critical as I may sound on certain aspects of them, this trilogy will stand as one of my favorite film trilogies.

Thank you.

Well done.
A compliment from The Joker is a good sign.

 

[Lantern Venom]

It's something strange for me because I actually liked Venom as a villain from the animated series, and I think Raimi even took a few nods from that, but when I found out his origin from the comics I thought, 'Really?' I mean, it's not that far fetched that someone would place blame on Spider-Man for something that wasn't really his fault, but the character is supposed to be sympathetic in the comics as I understand it and placing active blame on a superhero because you got discredited because they caught the actual bad guy that you failed to figure out and that guy being caught saved peoples lives, it kinda dehumanizes Eddie. Now to be fair Raimi didn't really give Eddie a ton of humanity either, but he wasn't trying to, which you can fault certainly, but is it really that big a deal?

For those of us who are ardent Venom fans, it was a slap in the face. Raimi, who had been so competent in his handling of Gobby and Ock, suddenly got lazy and petulant. Sony and Avi Arad were overbearing and short-sighted enough to push Raimi in a direction that he didn't want to go. The result was a version of Eddie with no back story (played by a pathetic actor) and a symbiote without any personality. Weak.


Yet in 2015, only Batman and Iron Man have had their worlds explored in live-action as much or more than Spidey. As a fan of Spidey for over 35 years, I never thought we'd be talking about a live-action trilogy that's now 8 years in the past, another 2-movie franchise, and new possibilities in future live-action features. That is (dare I say it?)...amazing. It also helps to have SHH where I can rid myself of my Blowpher-bashing energy after it has recharged.

 

[Batsfan1]

For those of us who are ardent Venom fans, it was a slap in the face. Raimi, who had been so competent in his handling of Gobby and Ock, suddenly got lazy and petulant. Sony and Avi Arad were overbearing and short-sighted enough to push Raimi in a direction that he didn't want to go. The result was a version of Eddie with no back story (played by a pathetic actor) and a symbiote without any personality. Weak.


Yet in 2015, only Batman and Iron Man have had their worlds explored in live-action as much or more than Spidey. As a fan of Spidey for over 35 years, I never thought we'd be talking about a live-action trilogy that's now 8 years in the past, another 2-movie franchise, and new possibilities in future live-action features. That is (dare I say it?)...amazing. It also helps to have SHH where I can rid myself of my Blowpher-bashing energy after it has recharged.

I'm sorry but I just don't agree. I don't see how Raimi was petulant or lazy in regards to this. Whoa, bashing. That's not very civilized. Topher Grace may not be the greatest actor, but he's fine and he plays the version of Eddie he was given acceptably. This version of the character is supposed to be this way. The actor is playing the part and that part is of a darker version of Peter. Which is really what the movie's about. There was a post on tumblr about this. Let me see if I can find it.

 

[Batsfan1]

Found it.

An Analysis Of Spider-Man 3, Part 2: The Villains, Their Narrative Purpose, Thematic Purpose And Characterization…
The whole point of Sandman is to show how Peter can be a hypocrite in this situation. The whole point is that he was wrong for this. It is to show a villain who is not evil, but is someone who wronged the hero, and how that doesn’t automatically make him evil, or deserving of death. Much like the man who died in SM 1. Flint’s partner was a bad guy. He literally tried to shoot Peter in the face. And Peter was wrong for letting that guy die then too. Him being Uncle Ben’s real killer or not doesn’t make that action right, which again, is the point. Peter is not always in the right. He does wrong things. And makes huge mistakes. Flint’s team up at the end is about how Spiderman’s gotten in his way twice by this point and the only way to stop him from interfering a second time is to take him out.

Eddie shows to be the darker version of Peter, of what Peter could be. Just like Harry sees the good man he could be by losing his memory, Peter literally sees the monster he could be in its physical manifestation in Venom. Eddie, in this movie, doesn’t see how his actions are wrong, much like Peter in a lot of cases in this film. Again, that’s the point: That is bad. And it’s something that exists in Peter as well in this movie: An unwillingness to admit he’s wrong. Again, it emphasizes the simple fact that Peter is not always right.
Please ask questions if you have any.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

I doubt the Marvel reboot will be as good as the Raimi films, but given the disaster that was the ASM series, at this point I'm just hoping for something half-decent. Half-decent would be a massive improvement over what we just got.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Apparently George R. R. Martin is a big fan of SM2.

From his Ant-Man review:

ANT-MAN has a proper balance of story, character, humor, and action, I think. A couple reviewers are calling it the best Marvel movie ever. I won't go that far, but it's right up there, maybe second only to the second Sam Raimi/ Tobey McGuire Spider-Man film, the one with Doc Ock. I've liked most of the Marvel movies, to be sure, I'm still a Marvel fanboy at heart (Excelsior!), but I liked this one more than the first AVENGERS and a lot more than the second, more than either THOR, more than the second and third IRON MAN and maybe just a smidge more than the first (though I liked that one a lot too).

 

[The Joker]

Well done.
A compliment from The Joker is a good sign.

Aw shucks

Found it.

That's excellent

I've always said Riami did a better job with Venom than the comics ever did.

Apparently George R. R. Martin is a big fan of SM2.

From his Ant-Man review:

He's a Game of Thrones writer isn't he? The man has good taste. It's nice to see the respect for SM-2 holding up over 10 years later. Kevin Fiege said recently it's one of the best superhero movies ever. He said their new Spidey movie has a lot to live up to because of it.

So I'm hoping they're using it as a benchmark in terms of quality to strive to.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

He's a Game of Thrones writer isn't he? The man has good taste. It's nice to see the respect for SM-2 holding up over 10 years later. Kevin Fiege said recently it's one of the best superhero movies ever. He said their new Spidey movie has a lot to live up to because of it.

He wrote the books that the show is based on (and a handful of episodes of the show).

When I hear Feige say things like that, I have faith. I also think SM2 is the best film based on a Marvel property. At least his heart is in the right place.

 

[Lantern Venom]

I'm sorry but I just don't agree. I don't see how Raimi was petulant or lazy in regards to this. Whoa, bashing. That's not very civilized. Topher Grace may not be the greatest actor, but he's fine and he plays the version of Eddie he was given acceptably. This version of the character is supposed to be this way. The actor is playing the part and that part is of a darker version of Peter. Which is really what the movie's about. There was a post on tumblr about this. Let me see if I can find it.

One simple truth of adaptations is that there will be people buying their ticket just to see a specific character, particularly if that character is being translated for the first time. Taking a popular character (hero, villain, or supporting) and making wholescale changes to it is a metaphorical kick in the testicles to the fans who have spent time and money on that character. And I don't say this only as a Venom fan, but for any comic book character.

Apparently George R. R. Martin is a big fan of SM2.

From his Ant-Man review:

I've never gotten into GoT, but I've seen several interviews that have made me respect GRRM. You can tell by reading that one that he knows comic book stories, and I don't just mean the zeitgeist of the movie adaptations. He's been a fan for a long time, and his comments show his true passion for the genre.

 

[UltimateWebhead]

It's something strange for me because I actually liked Venom as a villain from the animated series, and I think Raimi even took a few nods from that, but when I found out his origin from the comics I thought, 'Really?' I mean, it's not that far fetched that someone would place blame on Spider-Man for something that wasn't really his fault, but the character is supposed to be sympathetic in the comics as I understand it and placing active blame on a superhero because you got discredited because they caught the actual bad guy that you failed to figure out and that guy being caught saved peoples lives, it kinda dehumanizes Eddie. Now to be fair Raimi didn't really give Eddie a ton of humanity either, but he wasn't trying to, which you can fault certainly, but is it really that big a deal?

I've never really found Venom to be an interesting villain, he's very superficial and at least in 616 has never done anything nearly as devastating as Spidey's other A list villains, i.e. Goblin and Doc Ock. I count Venom as an A-lister mainly because of his popularity. I'll admit, he does look cool though.

I agree with Raimi on his opinion of the character and I think that it only speaks well of Raimi that he basically had a character forced on him, one that he didn't care for, and utilized him the best he could. Raimi made an improvement over the comic version despite that dislike and in the end, did it all because he was told he'd be pleasing the fans. This doesn't support Raimi is lazy at all, in fact, it would suggest the opposite.

I doubt the Marvel reboot will be as good as the Raimi films, but given the disaster that was the ASM series, at this point I'm just hoping for something half-decent. Half-decent would be a massive improvement over what we just got.

It honestly won't be difficult to get something that is better than ASM2. But imo, half-decent isn't really going to cut it. One could argue that the first ASM movie is half-decent...we don't need another one of those. And with the current state of Spider-Man's rep in cinema and with audiences, they really do need a home run with this next solo film. Maybe it won't top SM2, but it's gotta come close. Critical and audience reception need to be high. Basically, this first MCU Spidey film, imo, needs to be on par with DoFP both in terms of quality and also what that movie did to help the X-Men franchise.

So I'm hoping they're using it as a benchmark in terms of quality to strive to.

Sounds like they are based upon Feige's comments and of course Pascal even noted she preferred the Raimi movies.

 

[OcStat]

I can appreciate the version of Eddie Brock we've gotten on the big screen, and how he serves a unique roll in the film, being a reflection of Peter. But I don't think the movie pulled it off in a way that was truly satisfactory. There was too much glossed over that could've really added more to our sympathies with the character. Not even in regards to his adaptation from the comics, but his own story as it progresses in the film. The movie was already long, but a few differences here and there to save screen time, if not a couple extra minutes just added to the movie could have helped. I try not to dwell on it too much because the movie we got is the movie we'll always have, take it for what it is and enjoy it if you can. And I do enjoy the movie very much, I probably was one of the relative few who proclaimed their love for it before another franchise had to remind people "You don't know what you got 'til it's gone".

But while Venom has been abused, misused, and neutered in the comics, there's plenty of stories that give him relevance in the Spider-Man mythos. And in my opinion, the movie version doesn't hold a candle to him when he is written properly.

Also, did you guys see the recent quote from Raimi, where he says he finally saw the Amazing movies? He "thought they were great" (always the professional) and he has high hopes for the new series under Marvel.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

I thought as a character, film Venom was pretty similar to comics Venom. Most of the major character traits were there. It was an alien symbiote that attached to Peter Parker, affected his mind to make him more aggressive, was ditched by Peter, attached itself to a disgraced former newspaper photographer/journalist who wants revenge against Peter/Spider-Man, while retaining Peter's memories and giving Brock powers similar to Spider-Man. They modified a little bit to tie in Brock's downfall to something Peter did directly and thus giving Brock's motivations more legitimacy, but the whole story in the film as well as his look, powers, and weaknesses are pretty faithful to the comics.

It was certainly not an INO portrayal of the character.

 

[Kane52630]

http://kane52630.tumblr.com/post/124896926924/spider-man-2002

 

[Lantern Venom]

http://kane52630.tumblr.com/post/124896926924/spider-man-2002

]

These are sweet, Kane. I've always wondered what the DC brass thought of Peter referencing two of their characters?

 

[The Joker]

I would have loved if Peter said Thwip in that scene when he was trying to make the webbing come out.

 

[Nardz937]

I still can't believe I heard the name "Superman" in a Spider-Man movie. Blows my mind to this day.

 

[Lantern Venom]

I would have loved if Peter said Thwip in that scene when he was trying to make the webbing come out.

That's the kind of comic book jargon with words like "bamf", "snikt" "braka-braka-braka-", "skreeeee", "ka-thoom" that signals more than just a casual moviegoer. If you know what those mean, you're....

....ONE OF US.

 

[The Joker]

Lol I'm proud to be one of us. And CBMs often have little nods and winks like that to comic book fans that would fly over the heads of the casual movie goers.

 

[Lantern Venom]

Lol I'm proud to be one of us. And CBMs often have little nods and winks like that to comic book fans that would fly over the heads of the casual movie goers.

Indeed they do, and they never fail to bring a smile to my face. I've noticed that many TV shows, including cartoons, are loaded with easter eggs. It's a good thing that my kids don't mind that their dad is such a comic book geek because they get footnotes and endnotes to everything from the Marvel Cinematic Universe to Teen Titans Go.

 

[Batsfan1]

Aw shucks



That's excellent

I've always said Riami did a better job with Venom than the comics ever did.

The person did a post on Harry as well, I believe. If you'd like to see it I could find it and post it.

 

[The Joker]

Indeed they do, and they never fail to bring a smile to my face. I've noticed that many TV shows, including cartoons, are loaded with easter eggs. It's a good thing that my kids don't mind that their dad is such a comic book geek because they get footnotes and endnotes to everything from the Marvel Cinematic Universe to Teen Titans Go.

None of your kids are into comic books themselves?

The person did a post on Harry as well, I believe. If you'd like to see it I could find it and post it.

Please do.

 

[Batsfan1]

Please do.

Here you go.

An Analysis Of Spider-Man 3, Part 1: Harry Osborn, His Character Status, Thematic Status And Characterization…
Harry was never meant to be the main villain. There’s no story there. It’s just GG #2 with an added dose of revenge. That’s nothing new and doesn’t bring any new themes or ideas into play. The amnesia has a purpose. It shows us the kind of man he was or would’ve been without this darkening influence on him of his father, and it shows Harry the kind of man he’s capable of being. It also plays into the whole “everyone’s happy until their problems come back to bite them in the butt” aspect of the film. This happens to all the characters. The main ones anyway. For Peter, it’s his guilt and anger at the loss of Uncle Ben. For Mary-Jane, it’s her insecurities and unresolved issues with her father and her sense of self. For Harry, it’s his desire for revenge and unresolved issues with HIS father and HIS sense of self. That’s actually a really good reasoning for Mary-Jane and Harry connect so easily as they do. The amnesia is also something straight out of the comic book. I believe we’re supposed to understand that Harry’s insane. Again, something from the comics: When Norman loses his memory, he becomes sane until a large amount of stress causes another psychotic break and brings back his memories of being the Green Goblin. Harry also doesn’t snap for no reason. The kiss he and Mary-Jane have triggers it, partially. Although it’s never stated, I believe that until then Harry had been living in ignorant bliss of any of his resentful feelings towards Peter. But when the kiss happens and Mary-Jane takes off, because she feels guilty, Harry envies Peter and feels anger and resentment towards him for having something he can’t, which triggers the flood of everything else. I do think Harry’s turn into friend is a little fast, but it’s like Peter says about choice at the end: Harry, now having seen the good man he can be without his father’s influence, CHOOSES to be that. He CHOOSES to be the best version of himself because that’s what’s right and Harry’s knows it. That’s Harry’s arc: Finding a way out of the shadow of his Father. He literally does that to its fullest extent. Where Norman tried to kill Spiderman with his glider and accidentally killed himself, Harry CHOSE to throw himself in front of his glider to save Peter, getting himself killed. He CHOSE to be the best version of himself in that moment: Not Norman Osborn’s son, or even the Green Goblin’s son Goblin Jr., but Harry Osborn Peter’s friend. It’s actually really beautiful. He didn’t die to pay for anything. That’s not what it was about.
Please ask if you have any questions.

 

[The Joker]

That is really well written. I always loved that little analogy/mirror image between Norman and Harry's deaths. One was impaled trying to kill Peter, and the other was impaled saving Peter.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

"We sure showed him."

"What do you mean 'we'?"

"Oh"


Never understood that bit.
Was May saying she showed Ock?

I still can't believe I heard the name "Superman" in a Spider-Man movie. Blows my mind to this day.

The tie-in games have a few more references to the character, one of them is said by Bruce Campbell (who had a role in a Superman TV show).

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

http://kane52630.tumblr.com/post/124896926924/spider-man-2002

Kane these are awesome, can I please request an avatar from you? It's the scene in the first Spidey vs Ock fight at the end when Oco drops Aunt May and Spidey jumps after her, specifically when he webs her and pulls her closer to him, you can reply with it here or PM me whichever is easiest.

Thanks in advance