The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - - Part 11

[Spider-Aziz]

I remember when Spider-Man 2 was new, my brother loved the way Ock's tentacles were constructed and complimented the work done on it.
I agree, both in construction and how it was visually implemented/animated, to this day it remains a marvel to look at.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Nope. Direct from Marvel wiki:



http://marvel.wikia.com/Edward_Brock_(Earth-616)

That is the complex tale of a truly tragic, and more than a bit delusional, man.

SM3's VINO is "I knowingly cheated and got caught. Whaaaa!" I would call that B-movie writing, but I'm not sure that a movie with VINO as a main character would have even been quality enough for USA Up All Night.

This proves nothing to me except that I am right.

 

[The Joker]

All that link showed was why not adapting the comic book Venom back story is a big plus, that's why nobody has ever done it. It's so bad.

 

[Doc Ock]

One of comic's greatest rivalries? That's as funny as saying Venom is one of comic's greatest villains..

I don't consider Venom one of comic's greatest villains but one of the more popular ones, especially for people familiar with Spider-Man in some capacity. Venom really is just one of the "cool dude" characters from the 90s like Lobo, Spawn, etc. Although I thought Flash as Venom in the recent comics was fantastic, or at least the most I have really enjoyed Venom. I used to love Venom as a child just because he looked cool and that was about it.

Spoiler

Always brings a smile to my face, so good Mr. Raimi...so good.

I remember when Spider-Man 2 was new, my brother loved the way Ock's tentacles were constructed and complimented the work done on it.
I agree, both in construction and how it was visually implemented/animated, to this day it remains a marvel to look at.

When Ock is introduced in the TASM films I will be ready to critique the tentacles, they were just so good in Spider-Man 2 I'm afraid of changes!

 

[Lantern Venom]

No doubt a quote from the 90's when awful Venom craze was at fever pitch. A classic example of why the 90's was one of the worst eras for Spider-Man. A lot of stupid things were said and done then.

There's no valid reason why Spider-Man should be kept up nights by Venom when their feud has never gone anywhere interesting.



That's exactly why Venom doesn't need more time than the other villains. His motive is singular and straight forward. Kill Spider-Man. He doesn't have other goals like Goblin and Ock, so there's nothing else to focus on.

.

The late 80s and 90s were outstanding times for the Spidey books. I was 15 when I read ASM 300, and I was at a point where I was already bored with teenage heroes with high school as a backdrop and villains who wanted to take over the city/world/galaxy. When I saw Peter facing marital troubles, worrying about Mary Jane's pregnancy, and facing down ferocious lunatics like Brock and Kasady, comics grew up for me. That's when I knew they would be a life-long passion, and not something left to gather dust in my old toy box.

Eddie's had plenty of different motivations over the years (he cracked me up when he was detoxing drug addicts without their permission) but his initial one was anything but simplistic. To properly convey Eddie's hatred of Spidey, Eddie has to hate his own life first. Spidey is the avatar of Eddie's failures, ones that often came with sincere effort, and his shattered relationships. Venom, at least the true Eddie Brock version, can't have an origin that is pathetically cheesy and lackadaisical.

SM3 is the character's low point, and I'm talking drunk Vanilla Ice eating week-old ramen out of a dog dish in soiled tighty-whities low. Even the Phineas and Ferb: Mission Marvel appearance was less embarrassing than the no-origin symbiote and Blowpher's vomit-inducing dialogue delivery.

 

[A Necessary Evil]

lol

 

[The Joker]

The late 80s and 90s were outstanding times for the Spidey books. I was 15 when I read ASM 300, and I was at a point where I was already bored with teenage heroes with high school as a backdrop and villains who wanted to take over the city/world/galaxy. When I saw Peter facing marital troubles, worrying about Mary Jane's pregnancy, and facing down ferocious lunatics like Brock and Kasady, comics grew up for me. That's when I knew they would be a life-long passion, and not something left to gather dust in my old toy box.

Eddie's had plenty of different motivations over the years (he cracked me up when he was detoxing drug addicts without their permission) but his initial one was anything but simplistic. To properly convey Eddie's hatred of Spidey, Eddie has to hate his own life first. Spidey is the avatar of Eddie's failures, ones that often came with sincere effort, and his shattered relationships. Venom, at least the true Eddie Brock version, can't have an origin that is pathetically cheesy and lackadaisical.

SM3 is the character's low point, and I'm talking drunk Vanilla Ice eating week-old ramen out of a dog dish in soiled tighty-whities low. Even the Phineas and Ferb: Mission Marvel appearance was less embarrassing than the no-origin symbiote and Blowpher's vomit-inducing dialogue delivery.

The late 80's and 90's were a cracking time if you're a die hard Venom fan. Because that was the height of the symbiote craze, and one of the reasons why the 90's is regarded as one of the worst periods for the Spider-Man comics.

Eddie's hatred of Spider-Man is based on nothing. Zero, zip, zilch, nada. Hating his own pathetic life is not a solid basis for him to embark on a murderous vendetta on someone he didn't know from Adam. That is just not good writing. That is not believable. That is not the kind of basis great personal feuds are built on. That's why no adaption of Venom has ever done it that way. It's as weak as they come.

Spider-Man 3 took all that was wrong with Venom and corrected it. We got a solid characterization and motivation that you could buy for someone to want to kill Spider-Man because Peter did intentionally hurt Brock. There was a connection between them before they became enemies. That's how you do it right.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

I don't consider Venom one of comic's greatest villains but one of the more popular ones, especially for people familiar with Spider-Man in some capacity. Venom really is just one of the "cool dude" characters from the 90s like Lobo, Spawn, etc. Although I thought Flash as Venom in the recent comics was fantastic, or at least the most I have really enjoyed Venom. I used to love Venom as a child just because he looked cool and that was about it.

Lobo is from the 80s.

When Ock is introduced in the TASM films I will be ready to critique the tentacles, they were just so good in Spider-Man 2 I'm afraid of changes!

The tentacles are outstanding, showing them on set and for public display made it a better sell on the awesomeness of the tentacles.
Gadgets and devices made for this trilogy are incredible.

 

[Johnny-Oh]

I love New Goblin's glider, a lot of people hated it but it was so practical in the movie. I loved how Harry used it to punch enemies and the way it comes back to him when he falls.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

I love New Goblin's glider, a lot of people hated it but it was so practical in the movie. I loved how Harry used it to punch enemies and the way it comes back to him when he falls.

 

[W/ Great Power]

Just wanted to throw in a point here that was related to a discussion about the ratings of Spidey films (PG-13, R, etc):

I enjoyed the almost horror-like feel of SM1, in terms of Goblin. The sudden, split-second flashbacks Osborn has of Goblin caught me off guard as a kid, but they certainly added a darker depth to Goblin as a sinister villain.

Yes, even Raimi's films had minor elements that were geared towards kids, but I hate how the current films are, at times, almost blatantly trying to appease children.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Lobo is from the 80s.

Yeah, but he didn't really get popular until the 90s. He fit in more with the 90s anti-hero craze.

 

[The Joker]

Just wanted to throw in a point here that was related to a discussion about the ratings of Spidey films (PG-13, R, etc):

I enjoyed the almost horror-like feel of SM1, in terms of Goblin. The sudden, split-second flashbacks Osborn has of Goblin caught me off guard as a kid, but they certainly added a darker depth to Goblin as a sinister villain.

Yes, even Raimi's films had minor elements that were geared towards kids, but I hate how the current films are, at times, almost blatantly trying to appease children.

Nothing will top the glorious Evil Dead throwback with Ock's hospital massacre. That was vintage Sam Raimi. The one scene out of the trilogy that feels like it has Sam's biggest stamp on it. I often wonder how it made it into the movie. That was brutal for a PG-13 comic book movie. Finger nails scraping on the floor, people being picked up by their faces, impaled into walls etc.

So dark and so brilliant.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Nothing will top the glorious Evil Dead throwback with Ock's hospital massacre. That was vintage Sam Raimi. The one scene out of the trilogy that feels like it has Sam's biggest stamp on it. I often wonder how it made it into the movie. That was brutal for a PG-13 comic book movie. Finger nails scraping on the floor, people being picked up by their faces, impaled into walls etc.

So dark and so brilliant.

That was maybe the best scene of any Spider-Man film to date.

 

[Lantern Venom]

Eddie's hatred of Spider-Man is based on nothing. Zero, zip, zilch, nada. Hating his own pathetic life is not a solid basis for him to embark on a murderous vendetta on someone he didn't know from Adam. That is just not good writing. That is not believable. That is not the kind of basis great personal feuds are built on. That's why no adaption of Venom has ever done it that way. It's as weak as they come.

Spider-Man 3 took all that was wrong with Venom and corrected it. We got a solid characterization and motivation that you could buy for someone to want to kill Spider-Man because Peter did intentionally hurt Brock. There was a connection between them before they became enemies. That's how you do it right.

Psychological projection is very real, especially to someone who is mentally ill. Even if he/she doesn't understand it as such, it's a defensive coping mechanism. What we saw of comic book Eddie's childhood-to-adult life is a series of major traumas for which he lacked the insight and emotional tools to properly deal with them. Spider-man's adjacent intervention in Eddie's life had an impact that sent psychological shockwaves through Eddie's evaluation of the past and current (at the time) events of his life as well as his sense of self.

Moreover, we know that the black symbiote from the comics differs from the collective mindset of its own race. It sought a mutualistic bond with its host rather than simply using it up and moving on. When it was rejected by Peter, it formed a hatred similar to the volatile mindset of a spurned lover. Hence, the "we" part of Venom is a shared and amplified projection of pain, loneliness, and disillusionment.

But we got nothing so layered and magnificent in SM3--zero, zip, zilch, nada. We got a stock "bad guy" and some alien goo with no personality or backstory that just happened to be in all the right places at the right times. That's hack writing 101.

 

[A Necessary Evil]

hahahahahaha

 

[W/ Great Power]

Nothing will top the glorious Evil Dead throwback with Ock's hospital massacre. That was vintage Sam Raimi. The one scene out of the trilogy that feels like it has Sam's biggest stamp on it. I often wonder how it made it into the movie. That was brutal for a PG-13 comic book movie. Finger nails scraping on the floor, people being picked up by their faces, impaled into walls etc.

So dark and so brilliant.

So damn true. I watched SM2 a few weeks ago after a very long time, and I almost forgot how brutal it actually was.

The PG-13 rating is what's so frustrating. Raimi pushed those ratings to the limit, yet the producers of the current series, for example, were afraid to show the original scene they did with Harry's transformation into Goblin.

I realize people have complaints about Venom and Sandman, but you have to give Raimi credit for creating villains that instilled fear in the audience. Goblin's twisted nature, Ock doing a complete 180 from the loving husband and scientist he was, and Brock's transformation into Venom (I don't care what people say, he looked badass) made me believe that Spidey was in deep trouble. I certainly can't say I've felt that as much in TASM 1 and 2.

I don't mean to compare, but I'm just trying to support my point that Raimi did a hell of a job with what he had.

 

[The Joker]

That was maybe the best scene of any Spider-Man film to date.

It's certainly in my top 5.

Psychological projection is very real, especially to someone who is mentally ill.

Not for the basis of a personal murderous feud against someone you don't know from Adam. Name one great personal feud that had a basis like Spider-Man's and Venom's where they never knew each other or even met until they became enemies, and the guy who was being targeted didn't even do anything wrong.

Even if he/she doesn't understand it as such, it's a defensive coping mechanism. What we saw of comic book Eddie's childhood-to-adult life is a series of major traumas for which he lacked the insight and emotional tools to properly deal with them. Spider-man's adjacent intervention in Eddie's life had an impact that sent psychological shockwaves through Eddie's evaluation of the past and current (at the time) events of his life as well as his sense of self.

That is just a bunch of fancy window word dressing for a flimsy piece writing. You're basically saying in fancy wording that Eddie is so pathetic that he has to blame a total stranger who did nothing but catch a serial killer for al his own self inflicted loserness.

How is this joke of a motive supposed to make us take him more seriously?

Moreover, we know that the black symbiote from the comics differs from the collective mindset of its own race. It sought a mutualistic bond with its host rather than simply using it up and moving on. When it was rejected by Peter, it formed a hatred similar to the volatile mindset of a spurned lover. Hence, the "we" part of Venom is a shared and amplified projection of pain, loneliness, and disillusionment.

It's nothing to do with the symbiote. The idiotic moron was already blaming Spider-Man for everything before the symbiote even bonded with him. All the symbiote did was give him the power to take out his little hissy fit on Spider-Man.

But we got nothing so layered and magnificent in SM3--zero, zip, zilch, nada. We got a stock "bad guy" and some alien goo with no personality or backstory that just happened to be in all the right places at the right times. That's hack writing 101.

It not being the like the comic book version is the biggest compliment you can give it. That's why I keep pointing out no adaption of Venom has ever done the comic book origin because it so hilariously bad.

They want a credible version of the character that's why they ignore, just like Sam Raimi. He took garbage and turned it into gold.

So damn true. I watched SM2 a few weeks ago after a very long time, and I almost forgot how brutal it actually was.

The PG-13 rating is what's so frustrating. Raimi pushed those ratings to the limit, yet the producers of the current series, for example, were afraid to show the original scene they did with Harry's transformation into Goblin.

I realize people have complaints about Venom and Sandman, but you have to give Raimi credit for creating villains that instilled fear in the audience. Goblin's twisted nature, Ock doing a complete 180 from the loving husband and scientist he was, and Brock's transformation into Venom (I don't care what people say, he looked badass) made me believe that Spidey was in deep trouble. I certainly can't say I've felt that as much in TASM 1 and 2.

I don't mean to compare, but I'm just trying to support my point that Raimi did a hell of a job with what he had.

I agree. There's actually several scare moments in Raimi's movies. Norman's flashback moment when Harry finds him on the floor. Ock's tentacles shooting up over the balcony and pushing Harry back. Ock's hospital massacre etc.

I guess it wasn't as strict in the older days. I mean look at Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom. PG-13 and it has stuff like a guy getting his heart cut out.

 

[LizardMan07]

Not for the basis of a personal murderous feud against someone you don't know from Adam. Name one great personal feud that had a basis like Spider-Man's and Venom's where they never knew each other or even met until they became enemies.

Real Life or Comic books?

 

[The Joker]

Either.

 

[Kane52630]

 

[Spider-Aziz]

^That.. is the greatest Stan Lee cameo ever.

 

[Nardz937]

^That.. is the greatest Stan Lee cameo ever.

Definitely!

First Stan Lee cameo I can recall that wasn't just done for a quick laugh or for a "Oh, look. There's Stan Lee!" reaction.

It was serious, meaningful and awesome.

 

[A Necessary Evil]

They actually deleted a part of Stan Lee's cameo in SM1, which is why it's the least impressive of his cameos in the trilogy.

 

[spiderman2]

They actually deleted a part of Stan Lee's cameo in SM1, which is why it's the least impressive of his cameos in the trilogy.

Where did you hear that? I never heard any thing or saw anything about that.