The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - - Part 11

[TheVileOne]

Sam Raimi did a guest spot on Chris Hardwicke's Nerdist podcast.

He did talk in some ways about the problems with Spider-Man 3. He said it was the "wrong story" and the "wrong movie." It sounded like Raimi still loves the characters and actors and everything, but he knows he screwed up and the movie didn't work and he said he would've done it differently over again.

He said what doomed the movie was the sensibility of raising the stakes so much higher.

 

[Nardz937]

It’s a movie that just didn’t work very well, I tried to make it work, but I didn’t really believe in all the characters, so that couldn’t be hidden from people who loved Spider-Man. If the director doesn’t love something, it’s wrong of them to make it when so many other people love it. I think [raising the stakes after Spider-Man 2] was the thinking going into it, and I think that’s what doomed us. I should’ve just stuck with the characters and the relationships and progressed them to the next step and not tried to top the bar.

https://www.nerdist.com/pepisode/nerdist-podcast-sam-raimi/

 

[A Necessary Evil]

It's okay if Raimi doesn't like it, as a whole SM3 was liked, and tons of directors and artists hate their work. Not to mention it's still classy of him to take the blame for a movie that really wasn't his fault.

 

[Johnny-Oh]

Yeah but it does suck that he has to take all the blame. I loved the interview, he is very honest.

 

[ThePhantasm]

I think he's right. Raising the stakes was a big problem. They shoehorned in too many characters. Gwen Stacy should have never been in the film. 3 villains is too many.

 

[Lantern Venom]

I think he's right. Raising the stakes was a big problem. They shoehorned in too many characters. Gwen Stacy should have never been in the film. 3 villains is too many.

I still don't understand why Betty Brant wasn't used as the other woman. She had already been established as having a soft spot for Peter, if not a crush. It's more logical that Peter would be tempted by a familiar co-worker (and SM3 showed that he did find her attractive) rather than a woman with whom he had only had a couple of brief encounters.

 

[The Joker]

It was because Gwen was a bigger fan favorite.

 

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

He seems like a very humble man. It's great that he recognises the flaws, but as that interviewer stated, I hope he knows about all his strengths he brought to the Spider-Man franchise.

I truly think it hurts him how his tenure with the Spider-Man character ended. Damn Sony for not giving him a chance to redeem himself with a fourth film. I guess almost $900 million dollars at the box office just wasn't enough for them.

A re-energized (Post-Drag Me To Hell) Raimi directing Spider-Man 4 for a 2012 release could have been very interesting.

 

[Lantern Venom]

It was because Gwen was a bigger fan favorite.

But she wasn't really Gwen, she was just window dressing. Slapping a familiar name on a stock character doesn't actually help the character or the narrative. A fling with Betty would have been much more natural in SM3.

 

[The Joker]

You're missing the point. She was Gwen Stacy. Just because she didn't push the movie narrative didn't make her any less Gwen. Betty didn't push the movie the movie narrative in the movies either but she was still Betty.

Fans were more hyped at seeing Gwen than they were Betty because Gwen is a bigger fan favorite. That's why Ziskin pushed her into the movie. Raimi never wanted the Stacys in there.

 

[TheVileOne]

Gwen and Captain Stacy should not have been in the film, nor Eddie Brock and Venom.

We know Venom was Avi Arad's idea.

However, the fans were pretty much demanding Venom for the third film. That was undeniable.

 

[Lantern Venom]

You're missing the point. She was Gwen Stacy. Just because she didn't push the movie narrative didn't make her any less Gwen. Betty didn't push the movie the movie narrative in the movies either but she was still Betty.

Fans were more hyped at seeing Gwen than they were Betty because Gwen is a bigger fan favorite. That's why Ziskin pushed her into the movie. Raimi never wanted the Stacys in there.

Betty actually did have some brief, although important, scenes along the way. Gwen's role in SM3 was basically as a plot device. She had no meaning to Peter other than being a random girl he saved and viewers never really got to know her. There is nothing wrong with a minor character like that, except when he/she is supposedly representative of a huge character in the mythos.

And while it's been established that Raimi got a massive amount of unnecessary interference in SM3, he still could have put forth a better effort in some places.

Gwen and Captain Stacy should not have been in the film, nor Eddie Brock and Venom.
.

They could have been introduced, but not as disposable characters. If the movie's story calls for a minor character, then use minor characters from the comics or create new ones.

 

[The Joker]

Betty actually did have some brief, although important, scenes along the way.

Name these scenes and how they were important to the plot.

Gwen's role in SM3 was basically as a plot device. She had no meaning to Peter other than being a random girl he saved and viewers never really got to know her. There is nothing wrong with a minor character like that, except when he/she is supposedly representative of a huge character in the mythos.

Gwen's role in Spider-Man 3 had a significantly larger impact on Peter's life than Betty's ever did. Peter saving Gwen led to Spider-Man getting the key to the city, which in turn led to him kissing her in front of MJ, which in turn led to the friction between Peter and MJ over her, then Peter uses Gwen later to make MJ jealous in the jazz club. Eddie Brock spots Peter dating Gwen, and exacts revenge by kidnapping MJ.

She was not a random girl he saved. She was already established as a girl in Peter's class in college before he saved her.

I'm not denying she was basically there as a plot device to create drama, but to say Betty played a more important role than Gwen did is just silly. I liked Betty, but she was just there mainly for the humor scenes in the Bugle office. The only scene that wasn't played for laughs with Betty was the scene in Spider-Man 2 where she tells Peter to keep his chin up when she has to take his pay check off him to cover the advance she gave him. Peter's life wouldn't have changed with her not in it.

Can't say the same for Gwen.

 

[Lantern Venom]

Name these scenes and how they were important to the plot.



Gwen's role in Spider-Man 3 had a significantly larger impact on Peter's life than Betty's ever did. Peter saving Gwen led to Spider-Man getting the key to the city, which in turn led to him kissing her in front of MJ, which in turn led to the friction between Peter and MJ over her, then Peter uses Gwen later to make MJ jealous in the jazz club. Eddie Brock spots Peter dating Gwen, and exacts revenge by kidnapping MJ.

She was not a random girl he saved. She was already established as a girl in Peter's class in college before he saved her.

I'm not denying she was basically there as a plot device to create drama, but to say Betty played a more important role than Gwen did is just silly. I liked Betty, but she was just there mainly for the humor scenes in the Bugle office. The only scene that wasn't played for laughs with Betty was the scene in Spider-Man 2 where she tells Peter to keep his chin up when she has to take his pay check off him to cover the advance she gave him. Peter's life wouldn't have changed with her not in it.

Can't say the same for Gwen.

Betty's advance showed she was looking out for his well-being. The flirty looks and smiles showed attraction. The advance also shows that there was a level of trust between the two of them. For the purpose of making Mary Jane jealous (and nothing else of any importance at all), that was more than enough connection. Raimi could have just made up a name and filled that role as well.

And I don't think I even need to get started on the lazy writing of Eddie and Gwen, two characters who have had nothing to do with one another in comics, forming a toss-away relationship. Betty would have been just fine for that role, too. Gwen is far too important to the Spidey mythos to have been so disposable in SM3.

 

[The Joker]

Betty's advance showed she was looking out for his well-being. The flirty looks and smiles showed attraction. The advance also shows that there was a level of trust between the two of them.

Yeah and? How is this an important scene? What is so important about it? How is Betty's role in the three movies more important than Gwen's? Your response here doesn't justify your belief at all.

For the purpose of making Mary Jane jealous (and nothing else of any importance at all)

Incorrect. Spider-Man saving her led to Spider-Man's celebration by the city, which inflated Spidey's ego, made MJ feel worse about her failing career, and led to the kiss between Gwen and Spidey, which caused friction between Peter and MJ. Knowing that MJ hated that he kissed Gwen, he later deliberately took Gwen to MJ's Jazz club, which Eddie Brock saw, and later kidnapped MJ because of that.

It was never just about making MJ jealous. There was all kinds of repercussions to Gwen being in this movie. She may have been a plot device, but she contributed more to the movie than Betty did in all three put together.

So your claim Betty was important is factually false.

Raimi could have just made up a name and filled that role as well.

Yeah if you ignore she was also a Science major, a model, and the daughter of Captain Stacy, too.

And I don't think I even need to get started on the lazy writing of Eddie and Gwen, two characters who have had nothing to do with one another in comics, forming a toss-away relationship.

They had no relationship at all. That was the point. It was an obsession Eddie had with her. A more believable obsession I might had than he ever had with Spidey in the comics since he had an actual connection with Gwen. He equated a coffee they had once as an amazing night together, and Gwen rightly laughed that off.

Betty would have been just fine for that role, too. Gwen is far too important to the Spidey mythos to have been so disposable in SM3.

Yeah Betty could have done the role, too, but she wouldn't have fared any better. We didn't know anything about Betty in these movies. All we knew was she was Jonah's secretary. With Gwen we knew she was a Science major, a model on the side, she collected pictures for her portfolio, and she was the daughter of the Police Captain.

That's ten times more insight than we had on movie Betty Brant. So saying Betty could have filled in Gwen's role isn't saying much.

 

[schereZada]

Lantern Venom, T.J., gentlemen.

I guess the difference is that Betty Brant was already there, so at least you could think, "mh, yes, there was something flirty going on between them that's finally explored." With Gwen, it was a character put there out of nowhere. I mean, considering that in the comics she was so very important to Peter and that her death scarred him forever reducing her to a mere plot device was cheap and way too easy. Betty wasn't as relevant in the comics, so using her as could have been better. Not saying it would have been for sure but it would have a better use of a previously established character.

And then again, Betty works at the Daily Bugle, so it's natural that she and Eddie Brock would meet, and that "something else" would develop between she and Peter. But it's as T.J. said, she was probably better known to fans.

 

[Doctor Octopus]

But she wasn't really Gwen, she was just window dressing. Slapping a familiar name on a stock character doesn't actually help the character or the narrative. A fling with Betty would have been much more natural in SM3.

Disagreed. Betty was the nice girl who worked at the Daily Bugle for years with Peter. They had nothing in common and he only saw her when he visited the Bugle to sell photos. It would be unnatural if Betty suddenly looked like a threat to Peter and MJ's relationship.

Gwen was a better character to look like a threat to their relationship because she is new in Peter's life, she is prettier, she has more in common with Peter with the Science, she sees him outside of class too because he helps her with her studies, and she has status in the city because she is Captain Stacy's daughter so it was natural that a big deal would be made if Spider-Man saved her life. Also with Eddie Brock being an opportunist dating the daughter of the city's Police Captain made more sense. He could use her to get news scoops and photo opportunities if he got in good with her daddy.

Gwen was better for Spider-Man 3 to be used this way than Betty.

 

[Doctor Octopus]

There is also a classic rivalry between Gwen and MJ for Peter's attention and affections from Stan Lee's comic books. So that is another reason why Gwen was perfect for this part in Spider-Man 3.

 

[Ultron-5]

Does anyone know if the original Spider-Man 3 script featuring Vulture is online?

 

[A Necessary Evil]

Nope, just storyboards and possible plot details. It really is lame that Raimi thinks SM3 is awful, i'd say it's a flawed film but still good. He's made and been involved in far worse than that.

 

[Doc Ock]

I enjoy SM3 but it definitely could of been better, I don't care what Sam says. I blame Sony and Arad because it lets me feel better.

 

[Johnny-Oh]

Did Raimi really said awful? I heard the entire podcast and don't remember him saying that exact word.

 

[schereZada]

Did Raimi really said awful? I heard the entire podcast and don't remember him saying that exact word.

He did say awful. Here's the extract and the link:

Raimi: [But] directors don’t like to talk about their bad films.
Hardwick: I don’t think that “bad” is the right word.
Raimi: Awful!

http://collider.com/spider-man-3-sam-raimi/


I agree with him on this. But yes, directors are not always the best judges of their own work.

 

[Johnny-Oh]

He was joking tho

 

[GoldGoblin]

If you were Raimi and you were forced to put Venom in SM3,how would you do it?They didn't say anything about the symbiote,just That they wanted to see spidey fight Venom.

I think Raimi should of just held off on his Vulture/Sandman story for SM4 and for SM3 just use another classic villain that he likes,Kraven.

Then just make spidey have a new costume in SM3,the black costume.Have Kraven take and wear spidey's black costume,and in the final fight have Kraven use a dart that makes spidey hallucinate that makes spidey see Kraven as Venom.