Comics The Official Origin of the Species / Sinister 666 thread.

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Who would want to though... The goods've had both Norman and Harry, not to mention they are goblin looking goods also...
*shudders*
Can they still be called "goods"
 
Who would want to though... The goods've had both Norman and Harry, not to mention they are goblin looking goods also...
*shudders*
Can they still be called "goods"
:dry:

both Norman and Harry
:dry:
Norman and Harry
:csad:
Norman and Harry
:wow:
goblin looking goods
:shock


*screams at such a high pitch it unmakes the Ultimate universe and then remakes it to before the Loeb era....it also improves Liefeld's art majestically for all time.*
 
Sure they're good. A woman having had more than one man in her life (Or even in one night ) doesn't ruin her per se. And hell, lots of women (Far too many, unfortunately..) have their Goblinesque side. But as the Rabbi said to the Priest "It's better than ham_"
 
I finally got around to reading 642. I have to say, I'm a bit skeptical on this one. I enjoyed the cameos. It was great seeing Tombstone, one of my most recents faves. I'm hoping to see Ock back good and new in no time.
 
Part two of Origin of the Species has come out today, so, as usual, here’s my more in-depth thoughts:

First off, while Paul Azaceta’s art appears to have improved in this issue compared to the previous one, it again doesn’t seem as if he’s the right fit for a Spider-Man. Facial features and body-types do not appear to have much in the way of consistency. However, considering how this issue is one long chase sequence, it does allow him to be more energetic and give him far more freedom in terms of space and movement with his panels.

And yes, since part two is an extended chase-sequence, Mark Waid’s script is faster-paced, able to convey the rising dilemma and growing danger Spidey faces as, in attempting to get Lily’s newborn baby to safety, not only are Doc Ock’s army of hired super-villains after him, but so are the NYPD under the orders of Mayor J. Jonah Jameson for believing he‘s a kidnapper, a rabid news media reporting the coverage that makes the public turn against Spidey, Homeland Security who are fully aware the baby is Norman Osborn’s, and--as Lily ominously warns Harry--possibly people still loyal to Osborn. It’s easy to see that Waid has taken a familiar concept used often in Spider-Man stories--that the public, the press, and the authorities, have misunderstood is actions as being criminal--and has, to paraphrase Spinal Tap, ratcheted it up to 11.

Granted, like most action set-pieces, it pays not to think too hard about it for fear of seeing the plot holes. For instance, since Spidey being chased is being broadcast live throughout the nation, you have to wonder why none of the Avengers are stepping in to help out their fellow member? Likewise, you would think that the public having witnessed both Electro and Sandman attempt to kill Spidey would make them think there was something more going on than Spidey kidnapping some “anonymous” baby, especially when he tried heading towards the hospital. Also, with all the cameras watching his every move, including camera phones, Spidey could at least make the effort to defend his actions on live TV or “borrow“ a camera phone and send out a viral video like he did in Amazing Spider-Man: Dark Reign--The List (his saying to the cops that he doesn’t want to put their lives in danger is a mute point when super-villains are showing up to attack regardless). Or, since Homeland Security is fully aware of what the real situation regarding the baby is (which they even inform Jameson of when they take over his operation) why they don’t inform the authorities to keep their distance, least they put the baby in greater jeopardy?

Still, Waid manages to define all the characters motives in this issue in clear-cut terms. Spidey wants to save Lily’s baby. Doc Ock wants the baby at all costs. Lily wants to find her child before he comes to any harm. Harry wants to help Lily because he still loves her despite everything she did to him. Sandman wants the kid to get his daughter back. Jameson, naturally, thinks Spidey is a criminal. Electro is just crazy, and so forth.

Unfortunately, the character who winds up looking the least sympathetic is Carlie Cooper. To be fair, it’s apparent Waid wants us to applaud her for wanting to find Peter and seeing if he’s all right when neither Mary Jane (who, of course, knows where Peter really is but can‘t tell anyone) and Harry seem to care. However, when it comes to any concern about the safety of Lily’s newborn child (who is also Harry‘s half-brother), she has none, as she now regards Lily (who Harry reminds Carlie was “like a sister to her,”) as being a “monster” and a “murderer,” who doesn’t deserve any sympathy or aid whatsoever, something which she sanctimoniously chastises both MJ and Harry for. But as Spidey himself reminds us earlier in the issue, Lily and Norman’s baby is the innocent victim in all this, and shouldn’t have to suffer because of the sins of his parents. This is a clear-cut example of what happens when the writers try to TELL the reader one thing about a character when their actions SAY something else. Last issue, MJ told Peter how Carlie was right for him because she was a person who “knew there was more to life than just her.” This issue, we see Carlie come across like a self-righteous, judgmental b****. And yet we’re supposed to root for HER to be Peter’s new girlfriend?

All in all, this is a much better issue than part one now that the story’s pacing and plot has accelerated. However, despite what twists Waid brings to the table, just like last issue was your standard “Peter Parker has the worst luck in the history of the human race” story, this one is your standard “everybody hates and misunderstands Spider-Man” story, only it shouldn’t really work in light of Spidey’s current Avenger status. Still fun, even if it’s a bit thin.

http://stillanerd.livejournal.com/3504.html#cutid1
 
I finally got around to reading 642. I have to say, I'm a bit skeptical on this one. I enjoyed the cameos. It was great seeing Tombstone, one of my most recents faves. I'm hoping to see Ock back good and new in no time.

It will be interesting to see where they take the Ock character from here. I enjoyed the first issue. I think it was just more of a sigh of relief to get back on track with the ongoing storyline after that interruption of OMIT.

Thought the Paul Azaceta artwork was pretty solid. I know many around here aren't a fan of his work but I like his gritty style. I've been a fan of him since his work on that BPRD story a few years back.
 
So will Norman's kid grow faster like the Stacey twins?
 
I love how Ock's 'redesign' is "MORE ARMS!"

Hope he gets back to his regular self.
 
The kid has pointed ears....
Anyone else want Carlie dead?
I just never liked any of these new characters with the exception of Norah Winters....
 
The baby is a product of two people with goblin serum running into their veins. God only knows the many birth defects that kid could have.
 
I'm surprised it was green... or gray... or both... and also it could have borh sets of reproductive organs, Lily's seemed to dissapear when she goblin'd out... though that was just a half assed way of tryin to keep her ID a secret...
 
I love how Ock's 'redesign' is "MORE ARMS!"

Hope he gets back to his regular self.

I like the redesign, it makes him creepier. We all know it's going to be temporary anyway.

The kid has pointed ears....
Anyone else want Carlie dead?
I just never liked any of these new characters with the exception of Norah Winters....

I like Carlie over Norah actually.

Just read the second part, it was better than I expected it to be. Although I still don't like how Azaceta draws regular people, his super villain and Spidey art has grown on me.
 
Reading the plot description and that of the art, I can safely say that this has been another 2.99-3.99 every week or two that I'm GLAD not to be spending.

I still find it disgraceful that we don't have teh absolute A-list artists on Spidey anymore. Well, the covers are always awesome...that's about it. :(
 
BLECH. I hated that artist on the Electro arc. Glad I got bored and didn't finish One Moment In Time and DEFinitely glad I'm missing this crap.

Remember when Mainstream comics were drawn by people who could draw mainstream comics? The hell is this sketchy nonsense. Look, yeah, if there was some black and white indie book about some sap who lost his girlfriend or some zombie story or whatever else, sure I can take whatever art and appreciate it fully. Don't expect me to buy a superhero comic drawn by people who can't present superheroes properly.
 
I got to agree with you on that, art is a large part of comics for me. I love visuals as well as strong writing, but I'm so-so on gritty sketches. It's about time and place; Spider-man is energetic and full of life. If I had to make a comparison he's a Capcom game (vibrant usage of colours, over the top) vs Gears of War (Dark, intense, realistic) I feel the art needs to reflect his world, that's why this current artist is hard for me to enjoy.
 
I'm a day late for this since Amazing Spider-Man #644, part 3 of "Origin of the Species" came out yesterday. Still, that isn't going to prevent me from expressing my reactions after reading this.


Maybe it’s because this is now the third issue in a row with Paul Azaceta’s doing the art chores, so perhaps I’ve become accustomed to it, so this may explain why I’m not particularly turned-off by it this time around. Oh sure, there are still some problems, in that his figures--even the slimmer ones--all appear to be on the pudgy side, and the facial features and expressions appear stiff and distorted. However, I do believe that he’s been doing a decent job depicting fight scenes, from the Rhino almost landing on top of Spidey, to the wall-crawler’s battle with the new Vulture and Freak towards the issue’s end.

Just like last issue, Mark Waid's plot is a prolonged chase sequence as Spidey desperately tries to find help for Lily’s newborn baby while being pursued by various super-villains. And if you think that sounds very similar to what happened last issue, you would be right. The difference amounts to which villains come after Spidey this time around, which includes the new Vulture, Freak, Rhino, Mysterio, and another which I’ll address later on.

To Waid’s credit, he does offer some good character moments. By far, the best example of this occurs during Spider-Man’s confrontation with the Rhino, which builds on Joe Kelly’s previous story during the Gauntlet. It’s effective as it is powerful in showing how frustrated and desperate Spider-Man has become in protecting Lily’s newborn child and the Rhino, despite his desire for revenge against Spider-Man for the death of his wife, is a man of honor and principle.

When it comes to Carlie Cooper on the other hand, her characterization comes across as very inconsistent. After the police show up at that Coffee Bean and rescue her from Tombstone, she chooses to lie to them about Lily being at the scene, which she rationalizes to herself is because “Lily was like a sister to [her] before she went crazy and betrayed everyone” and that she wants to “get to the bottom of this” herself. Perhaps we’re supposed to conclude that she’s feeling guilty about abandoning Lily last issue, but it feels jarring since there was no indication of her feeling emotionally conflicted about Lily before. And of course, she’s shocked--shocked I tell you!--that Peter was no longer at the Coffee Bean (despite the fact Mary Jane told her Spider-Man “rescued him” two issues ago), and, thinking he has selfishly abandoned his friends, writes him off and goes looking for Lily--who she had, just last issue wrote off herself.

There are good twists and fake-outs Waid also written in this issue, though. For example, we find out that Doctor Octopus has not only been tracking Spider-Man on various TV and web broadcasts, but--in a case of using Spidey’s own tricks against him--has planted on Spidey a spider-tracer inspired “octo-tracer” to track his every move. And considering Spidey’s spider-sense is constantly going off throughout the issue and thus confusing him about where the next threat will come from, the implication is that it’s warning him about the tracer he unknowingly has on his person. Another occurs in a hysterically ridiculous moment (although I’m not sure if this was intentional on Waid’s part) in which, thanks to Mysterio, Spidey is tricked into thinking Lily’s baby has mutated into demonic-like Goblin like his parents that’s trying to eat him. It’s certainly an out-of-left field scene which helps to keep the reader on their toes.

The big surprise, however, comes from the cliffhanger at the end of this issue, in which Spidey, after giving Lily’s baby to Harry Osborn to take care off, later is told the baby has died. Thus, furious that he has failed yet again after weeks of constant failure, Spidey swears revenge again Doc Ock--only for the reader to discover that not only is the baby still alive, but that Harry was actually the Chameleon in disguise. The fact that we had an earlier scene of the real Harry leaving MJ and Lily, and another showing Doc Ock talking to an unidentified accomplice, helps to add to how well Waid executed this twist. Although, one does have to wonder why the Chameleon chose to make Spidey think the baby was dead when he could have easily taken off without Spidey being any the wiser? If the Chameleon is working with Doc Ock, then he’s just made Spidey more determined than ever to find him, which would then make him quickly learn that the baby is still alive--unless of course, the Chameleon is pulling a double-cross. It seems like this addition to the twist was put in to make the eventual confrontation between Spidey and Doc Ock more personal and little else.

Finally, I’m still wondering why Mayor Jameson (and Homeland Security for that matter) still hasn’t informed the police the real situation regarding Spider-Man and the baby, especially since they’re just now getting reports of super-villains going after Spider-Man and the baby as well? Or, since Spidey was able to go to a woman to ask for help (who then ran away thinking Spidey was going to kidnap her kid), why he still hasn’t gone in front of a TV camera and explain what is going on--especially since his every move is being monitored on live TV? And why dud Doc Ock choose to let Mary Jane, Harry, Lily, and Carlie go last issue when they could have been ideal hostages for him to force Spidey to give the baby back? Especially since it’s obvious that, given how Tombstone is following Carlie, she, MJ, and Lily are probably going to wind up getting captured anyway?

At the half-way point of Origin of the Species, it does appear as though the story is improving, it still feels as though the story is dragging its heels, thus making it merely an adequate Spider-Man story. Considering this is supposed to be the “grand finale” to “Brand New Day,” one would have thought would have been much more.

http://stillanerd.livejournal.com/3988.html
 
have yet to read part 3, but i cant help but think...
What kind of a complete and utter wench Mary Jane is becoming...
She can't stand knowing Pete and Spidey are one and the same and left him for that knowledge.
She fears for her life and her families yet continues to hang around him anyway...That makes no sence....
Also, why would she try and hook Pete up with someone if she feels that way... It seems very cruel to that girl, i'm not saying that she should stop pete from seeing someone, just that she shouldn't be influencing it....
 
I'm a day late for this since Amazing Spider-Man #644, part 3 of "Origin of the Species" came out yesterday. Still, that isn't going to prevent me from expressing my reactions after reading this.


Maybe it’s because this is now the third issue in a row with Paul Azaceta’s doing the art chores, so perhaps I’ve become accustomed to it, so this may explain why I’m not particularly turned-off by it this time around. Oh sure, there are still some problems, in that his figures--even the slimmer ones--all appear to be on the pudgy side, and the facial features and expressions appear stiff and distorted. However, I do believe that he’s been doing a decent job depicting fight scenes, from the Rhino almost landing on top of Spidey, to the wall-crawler’s battle with the new Vulture and Freak towards the issue’s end.

Just like last issue, Mark Waid's plot is a prolonged chase sequence as Spidey desperately tries to find help for Lily’s newborn baby while being pursued by various super-villains. And if you think that sounds very similar to what happened last issue, you would be right. The difference amounts to which villains come after Spidey this time around, which includes the new Vulture, Freak, Rhino, Mysterio, and another which I’ll address later on.

To Waid’s credit, he does offer some good character moments. By far, the best example of this occurs during Spider-Man’s confrontation with the Rhino, which builds on Joe Kelly’s previous story during the Gauntlet. It’s effective as it is powerful in showing how frustrated and desperate Spider-Man has become in protecting Lily’s newborn child and the Rhino, despite his desire for revenge against Spider-Man for the death of his wife, is a man of honor and principle.

When it comes to Carlie Cooper on the other hand, her characterization comes across as very inconsistent. After the police show up at that Coffee Bean and rescue her from Tombstone, she chooses to lie to them about Lily being at the scene, which she rationalizes to herself is because “Lily was like a sister to [her] before she went crazy and betrayed everyone” and that she wants to “get to the bottom of this” herself. Perhaps we’re supposed to conclude that she’s feeling guilty about abandoning Lily last issue, but it feels jarring since there was no indication of her feeling emotionally conflicted about Lily before. And of course, she’s shocked--shocked I tell you!--that Peter was no longer at the Coffee Bean (despite the fact Mary Jane told her Spider-Man “rescued him” two issues ago), and, thinking he has selfishly abandoned his friends, writes him off and goes looking for Lily--who she had, just last issue wrote off herself.

There are good twists and fake-outs Waid also written in this issue, though. For example, we find out that Doctor Octopus has not only been tracking Spider-Man on various TV and web broadcasts, but--in a case of using Spidey’s own tricks against him--has planted on Spidey a spider-tracer inspired “octo-tracer” to track his every move. And considering Spidey’s spider-sense is constantly going off throughout the issue and thus confusing him about where the next threat will come from, the implication is that it’s warning him about the tracer he unknowingly has on his person. Another occurs in a hysterically ridiculous moment (although I’m not sure if this was intentional on Waid’s part) in which, thanks to Mysterio, Spidey is tricked into thinking Lily’s baby has mutated into demonic-like Goblin like his parents that’s trying to eat him. It’s certainly an out-of-left field scene which helps to keep the reader on their toes.

The big surprise, however, comes from the cliffhanger at the end of this issue, in which Spidey, after giving Lily’s baby to Harry Osborn to take care off, later is told the baby has died. Thus, furious that he has failed yet again after weeks of constant failure, Spidey swears revenge again Doc Ock--only for the reader to discover that not only is the baby still alive, but that Harry was actually the Chameleon in disguise. The fact that we had an earlier scene of the real Harry leaving MJ and Lily, and another showing Doc Ock talking to an unidentified accomplice, helps to add to how well Waid executed this twist. Although, one does have to wonder why the Chameleon chose to make Spidey think the baby was dead when he could have easily taken off without Spidey being any the wiser? If the Chameleon is working with Doc Ock, then he’s just made Spidey more determined than ever to find him, which would then make him quickly learn that the baby is still alive--unless of course, the Chameleon is pulling a double-cross. It seems like this addition to the twist was put in to make the eventual confrontation between Spidey and Doc Ock more personal and little else.

Finally, I’m still wondering why Mayor Jameson (and Homeland Security for that matter) still hasn’t informed the police the real situation regarding Spider-Man and the baby, especially since they’re just now getting reports of super-villains going after Spider-Man and the baby as well? Or, since Spidey was able to go to a woman to ask for help (who then ran away thinking Spidey was going to kidnap her kid), why he still hasn’t gone in front of a TV camera and explain what is going on--especially since his every move is being monitored on live TV? And why dud Doc Ock choose to let Mary Jane, Harry, Lily, and Carlie go last issue when they could have been ideal hostages for him to force Spidey to give the baby back? Especially since it’s obvious that, given how Tombstone is following Carlie, she, MJ, and Lily are probably going to wind up getting captured anyway?

At the half-way point of Origin of the Species, it does appear as though the story is improving, it still feels as though the story is dragging its heels, thus making it merely an adequate Spider-Man story. Considering this is supposed to be the “grand finale” to “Brand New Day,” one would have thought would have been much more.

http://stillanerd.livejournal.com/3988.html

Again the Idiot Plot rears its ugly head.

Weren't Harry and Peter both at the Coffee Bean at the start of this farce? Why would Harry then catch up to Peter (when none of the villains could). And what can Harry do to protect the child that Peter couldn't? Or why not simply have Peter and Harry together from the start, with Harry trying to get the baby to safety with Spidey keeping the villains off his back? At the very least, it would've put the baby in the direct line of fire for less periods of time. And this might have even helped to make the surprise twist make more sense and be a little more shocking. And is Peter actually going somewhere with this newborn child (FF HQ, Avengers HQ..?) or is he running aimlessly with a newborn, ignoring that newborns can die from exposure? And why doesn't Spidey just duck away and switch back to Peter Parker? The villains are hunting for Spidey with a baby, not Peter Parker.

And as for the suprise plot twist- ASM #1 back in 1963 showed us that the spider sense would have solved that problem. I know that his spider sense has almost always been inconsistent, but he at least always knows where the danger is coming from. that's how he dodges atacks coming from all directions.
 
Again the Idiot Plot rears its ugly head.

Weren't Harry and Peter both at the Coffee Bean at the start of this farce? Why would Harry then catch up to Peter (when none of the villains could). And what can Harry do to protect the child that Peter couldn't? Or why not simply have Peter and Harry together from the start, with Harry trying to get the baby to safety with Spidey keeping the villains off his back? At the very least, it would've put the baby in the direct line of fire for less periods of time. And this might have even helped to make the surprise twist make more sense and be a little more shocking. And is Peter actually going somewhere with this newborn child (FF HQ, Avengers HQ..?) or is he running aimlessly with a newborn, ignoring that newborns can die from exposure? And why doesn't Spidey just duck away and switch back to Peter Parker? The villains are hunting for Spidey with a baby, not Peter Parker.

And as for the suprise plot twist- ASM #1 back in 1963 showed us that the spider sense would have solved that problem. I know that his spider sense has almost always been inconsistent, but he at least always knows where the danger is coming from. that's how he dodges atacks coming from all directions.

That wasn't Harry, it was Chameleon. And he knew where Spidey was because Ock's been tracking Spidey with a special Octo-Tracer he placed on him.

Spidey's spider sense didn't react to it or Chameleon specifically because it's on overload reacting to the Cops chasing him, and the plethora of super villains attacking him.

He was heading to the Avenger's mansion with the infant.
 
That wasn't Harry, it was Chameleon. And he knew where Spidey was because Ock's been tracking Spidey with a special Octo-Tracer he placed on him.

Spidey's spider sense didn't react to it or Chameleon specifically because it's on overload reacting to the Cops chasing him, and the plethora of super villains attacking him.

He was heading to the Avenger's mansion with the infant.

I know who it was. That's why i mentioned the shocking plot twist. Which gets me back to my point. Why would Harry be able to catch up to Spidey after having been left at the Coffee Bean? This is also why I mentioned that the surprise you mentioned might have been better (Although still problematic) if Harry had been with Spidey the whole time.

And and about the overload.. Nah, man. If there's danger or a dangerous person near, he knows it. And he knows where its coming from. That's how he dodges gunfire when its coming from all around him. In ASM #1, as I'd mentioned, Spidey was in constant danger from the police, since they wanted to capture him. In the darkness, every cop would have triggered his spider sense. But Spidey still zeroed on The Chameleon.
 
I know who it was. That's why i mentioned the shocking plot twist. Which gets me back to my point. Why would Harry be able to catch up to Spidey after having been left at the Coffee Bean? This is also why I mentioned that the surprise you mentioned might have been better (Although still problematic) if Harry had been with Spidey the whole time.

Well, Spidey does ask "Harry" how he managed to find him, to which "Harry" (The Chameleon) tells him, "Are you kidding? I had no trouble. Between News Crews, Cops and cellphones, you're being tracked to the block by every TV and laptop in the city!"

Of course, this brings up two other problems. 1. As I mentioned in my review for last issue, if Spidey is being tracked by every TV and laptop in the city, why doesn't he just go to one of those cameras and explain what is really going on? After all, he had time enough to stop and try to get help from a woman to help with the baby, not to mention was able to convince the Rhino by appealing to logic and sense of common decency. 2. How come none of the Avengers haven't shown up to help, especially since last issue, the chase was being broadcast live all over the country?

And and about the overload.. Nah, man. If there's danger or a dangerous person near, he knows it. And he knows where its coming from. That's how he dodges gunfire when its coming from all around him. In ASM #1, as I'd mentioned, Spidey was in constant danger from the police, since they wanted to capture him. In the darkness, every cop would have triggered his spider sense. But Spidey still zeroed on The Chameleon.

Very true. Although, I think Waid was trying to imply that Spidey's spider-sense was being triggered by Doc Ock's "octo-tracer." Of course, since this is not outright stated, this is only a guess.
 
Very true. Although, I think Waid was trying to imply that Spidey's spider-sense was being triggered by Doc Ock's "octo-tracer." Of course, since this is not outright stated, this is only a guess.

Yeah, I thought that was pretty much spelled out when they went to Ock and he said "...he was giving Spider-Man a taste of his own medicine". That's why I figured his spider sense was pretty much going off through the whole issue. I think every panel that he was drawn they had the Spidey sense lines above his head. Factor in all the constant danger from Rhino, Freak, and Vulture...plus people with the cell phones taking his picture and the police helicopters. It's like an overload. I'm hoping that he catches on that it was Chameleon somehow though. :o
 

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