Comics The Official Origin of the Species / Sinister 666 thread.

[Meehaul]

Hmms. To me, the founding rule of BND has been to tell interesting, entertaining stories. And for the most part, they've hit the mark.

 

[moraldeficiency]

so then you're saying they failed with this one?

 

[the_ultimate_evil]

unless harry shows up in goblin gear as a hero then yes it's a fail

 

[ben_reilly_s_s]

Harry better show up in either his Green Goblin outfit, Phil's Green Goblin outfit or the American Son armour. And god help marvel if he shows up in something resembling New Goblin from Spider-Man 3

 

[Dragon]

Hmms. To me, the founding rule of BND has been to tell interesting, entertaining stories. And for the most part, they've hit the mark.

That you find the stories entertaining ang interesting is entirely up to you. That doesn't alter he fact that Peter is constantly written to be a moron.

You and I briefly discussed the point of the sophistication of the writing nowadays vs. during Stan's run. And while I'll grant you the subject matter may be more explicit- Stan sure as hell wouldn't have shown a woman delivering a baby in a coffee shop (Thank God)- it's not at all sophisticated. In fact, that the major problem. Stan wrote about adult situations but interpreted them so a twelve year old could understand them. But now it's as though they are presenting adult situations as envisioned by a twelve year old. From the very infantile resolution to Peter and MJ's marriage, to Peter walking in on Aunt May engaging in geriatric sex, to this current farce, the comics have only beome more explicit without being more sophisiticated. Stan didn't present certain things because he knew the majority of his audience at the time were kids. Times have changed and I'm fne with them adjusting the material to keep up. But they should also make the concepts maintain the intelligence that Marvel built its reputation on.

 

[Meehaul]

Well, I disagree that he's being written as a moron...at least no more of a moron than he's ever been portrayed. I think we can find numerous examples, past and present, where Pete did/said/whatever, stupid things. I don't think that's any different today from in the past. Interestingly, while I thought OMIT was pretty lame, and the whole insertion of Mephisto into the story (and then his apparent removal), they actually treated the subject of marriage in an adult way. Its entirely plausible that someone would not want to bring children into a high-risk situation or that they'd be worried about marrying someone who had a dangerous job. My wife, for example, made me give up certain high risk sports I used to do, and we've had friends who refused to marry police officers because of concern about their safety. It happens.

I do agree with you that there's a certain "shock value" comics are going for--whether's its the drunken sex, Black Cat mask on sex, geriatric sex, or whatever. Most of that is a lame excuse to make the material appear a bit more "'adult." Unless it serves the plot in an interesting way--the Lizard-rape implication in Shed--I think it's not worth inserting in scripts just for shock value.

 

[Dragon]

Well, let's take this storyline for example. Peter's point is to protect this newborn baby. But any idiot knows that Peter simply taking a newborn for a webswing would be deadly for it. We can debate how durable this particular baby may or may not be- But Peter couldn't know for sure. So, for him to decide to go running out with the baby is already stupid of him. Then factoring in that the villains would be going after him directly, he'd be essentially sentencing the baby to die. Period.

Now, we can also debate how often Peter has done stupid things in the past. Sometimes, his ill-choices were purposeful, to display that he's a flawed person as we all are and makes mistakes. But in the case of this story, we have him making a dangerous choice and then spending 3 issues, getting nowhere. He doesn't reach his objective. He only hands of the baby to "Harry" for safe-keeping, which he could have done from the beginning. This story could've been structured a hundred different ways to not make Peter look like a dumbass, while still giving him the requisite hard time. Having it begin with Ock kidnapping the baby and having the story deal wth Spidey trying to get him back is an example.

As far as the marriage. First off, when you have Mephisto being brought into the mix, you've already gone too far. Anyone who feels like the only way to end a relationship is to go to the Devil, literally, is creatively bankrupt. But this has already been discussed ad nauseum.

The other problem is that after OMIT, we are brought back to retreading the same concepts. MJ can't be with Peter because it's too dangerous? That's it? She didn't realize that after Gwen was killed? She didn't realize this after she nearly got her ass blown off when Harry bombed his and Peter's apartment? If they had to end the marriage, they should have come up with some new material. The danger of living with Spider-Man has been covered too often. And MJ has been established as to being able to deal with it. Anyway, Stan covered that way back with Betty. He was avoiding it with Gwen.

As for the shock value thing, yeah it's juvenile nonsense.

Even if we say that the stories were equally silly in the past (which I disagree with) they should be trying to make these stories better.

 

[mre]

Well, let's take this storyline for example. Peter's point is to protect this newborn baby. But any idiot knows that Peter simply taking a newborn for a webswing would be deadly for it. We can debate how durable this particular baby may or may not be- But Peter couldn't know for sure. So, for him to decide to go running out with the baby is already stupid of him. Then factoring in that the villains would be going after him directly, he'd be essentially sentencing the baby to die. Period.

Now, we can also debate how often Peter has done stupid things in the past. Sometimes, his ill-choices were purposeful, to display that he's a flawed person as we all are and makes mistakes. But in the case of this story, we have him making a dangerous choice and then spending 3 issues, getting nowhere. He doesn't reach his objective. He only hands of the baby to "Harry" for safe-keeping, which he could have done from the beginning. This story could've been structured a hundred different ways to not make Peter look like a dumbass, while still giving him the requisite hard time. Having it begin with Ock kidnapping the baby and having the story deal wth Spidey trying to get him back is an example.

The point of the story is that the villains are going after the baby, not Spider-Man. The target is the baby. I don't understand, how would Harry defend the baby better than Spider-Man?
And I think the fact that Harry turned out to be a villain proves that he can only trust himself in caring for the baby.

 

[moraldeficiency]

The point of the story is that the villains are going after the baby, not Spider-Man. The target is the baby. I don't understand, how would Harry defend the baby better than Spider-Man?
And I think the fact that Harry turned out to be a villain proves that he can only trust himself in caring for the baby.

Well your argument kinda makes peter a moron for handing the baby to harry then doesn't it? Even if he wasn't a villain that is.

 

[Dragon]

The point of the story is that the villains are going after the baby, not Spider-Man. The target is the baby. I don't understand, how would Harry defend the baby better than Spider-Man?
And I think the fact that Harry turned out to be a villain proves that he can only trust himself in caring for the baby.

The point is Spidey saving the baby from the villains. Whether he's running around the city carrying him or fighting to free him, it's all the same. The drama comes from the odds he's facing and how far he'll go to protect an innocent. Everything else is incidental.

And as I'd said earleir- Harry takes the baby- Spidey follows keeping the villains off his back. But Harry, being superhuman is at least equipped to defend himself should the villains get close. And Harry didn't turn out to be a villain- a villain is impersonating Harry.

 

[mre]

Well your argument kinda makes peter a moron for handing the baby to harry then doesn't it? Even if he wasn't a villain that is.

Well, Spider-Man had an advantage because he was able to slip away from all the chaos, and no one would have realized Spider-Man didn't have the baby until hopefully it was too late.
But if he gave the baby to Harry in the first issue, then everyone would know who had the baby.
Spider-Man grabbed the baby from Ock, and just took off as fast as he could. I think that was his best option at the time.

 

[moraldeficiency]

Well, Spider-Man had an advantage because he was able to slip away from all the chaos, and no one would have realized Spider-Man didn't have the baby until hopefully it was too late.
But if he gave the baby to Harry in the first issue, then everyone would know who had the baby.
Spider-Man grabbed the baby from Ock, and just took off as fast as he could. I think that was his best option at the time.

A just born baby being bounced around was the best option an Avenger had to keep a child safe? That's really what you're going with? How about this...He grabs the kid, goes through an ER room, hands the baby off to a doc then bounds out a window with a baby shaped ball of webbing his arms....That would eliminate him killing the baby the same way gwen died and keep him/her/whatever safe from the villains and any other shenanigans. Or call any of the hundreds of his superpowered friends to help him defend the hospital? Or do pretty much anything except what he did would have better all around. Just saying, there were plenty of better safer and less painful options than what he chose.

 

[mre]

A just born baby being bounced around was the best option an Avenger had to keep a child safe? That's really what you're going with? How about this...He grabs the kid, goes through an ER room, hands the baby off to a doc then bounds out a window with a baby shaped ball of webbing his arms....That would eliminate him killing the baby the same way gwen died and keep him/her/whatever safe from the villains and any other shenanigans. Or call any of the hundreds of his superpowered friends to help him defend the hospital? Or do pretty much anything except what he did would have better all around. Just saying, there were plenty of better safer and less painful options than what he chose.

I'm sorry, I was under the impression that Spidey was trying to get the baby to a hospital or Avengers mansion. If I am wrong, let me know. If I am right, all your point proves is that the story is moving at a snails pace.

 

[Dragon]

Actually I don't think that Spidey would try to get the baby to a hospital. Hospitals wouldn't be equiped to protect the baby from the Sinisters' onslaught and the other patients would be in danger. Getting the baby to FF or Avengers' HQ would be safe and they both have medical facilities.

But Spidey's "plan" is again- stupid for someone with his experience.
This story concept, as silly as it is, could have presented Spidey with an interesting dramatic dilemma. How does he protect the baby from Ock, while not be as much of a danger to the baby as Ock would be. But this isn't even considered. All it comes down to is a pursuit. And then the story is padded out- with Spidey on the run for three issues only to wind up nowhere, proving yet again that these Events aren't determined by story content. Only the need to push them into six or more issues.

 

[Themanofbat]

Yet, if we read this story in 1974, we'd still be talking about how friggin' great it was...

 

[moraldeficiency]

Yet, if we read this story in 1974, we'd still be talking about how friggin' great it was...

Then we'd go disco dancing and do some blow. Times change there buddy. There is hopefully a higher standard now then 30 years ago for story structure.

 

[moraldeficiency]

I'm sorry, I was under the impression that Spidey was trying to get the baby to a hospital or Avengers mansion. If I am wrong, let me know. If I am right, all your point proves is that the story is moving at a snails pace.

Avengers mansion. My point is gwen died from stress brought on by a web line. A new born is extremely fragile, and webswinging with the infant would be practically a death sentence. There are better options available and if Peter was somewhat smart then he would have used one.

But you're right the story isn't moving fast or going anywhere resembling forward.

 

[Shockdingo]

Then we'd go disco dancing and do some blow.

I know I'm massively off topic, but I laughed at this. Hard. This reminded me of a quip in the Hobgoblins episode of Mystery Science Theatre 3,000

[A bunch of painfully 80s teenagers are dancing in the saddest house party ever]

Mike (singing): It's the 80s yea! Gonna do lots of coke and vote for Ronald Regan.


Ahem on topic now:
Overall, as opinions are going this way and that, I felt that this story had potential, but it's being tackled wrong. I'm incredibly biased, but I don't think the idea me and Moraldeficiency tossed around was all that bad. I mean if they wanted to do a chase and endurance arc, I think certain things could have been better done. Overall, I just feel like we haven't done much. Though the previews or "pissed silent serious" Pete do look interesting, we'll have to see how that plays out today.

I'm still pretty surprised they didn't have anyone help out; BlackCat, Avenger #2152aa, Human Torch, or in what I think would be a rather interesting surprise; Anti-Venom.

Now before you all drop the bus on me (Greyhound specifically, not a typical Nun & Innocent school kid filled bus), I'm not on an Anti-Venom trip. (Well I sorta have been, but this idea could work)

IDEA MODE:
Say we have Brock and Jenna doing their thing when they notice the streets are a buzz with activity. Jenna makes a comment that they've been busting their humps in the blistering heat for nothing as today has been quiet, so they decide to duck into a coffee shop. Suddenly they notice all the inhabitants in a trance-like gaze staring at the TV sets. Brock walks up to a beared fellow who's shaking his head in concern; he's so fixated on what he's viewing that he's unknowingly spilled his expensive latte.

"'Scuse me buddy, but what's going on?"

"Just get outta bed pal? Spider-man's hauling ass all over the city with a kid in tow! All the crazies are after him for some reason, and no one's showed up to help ol' webhead. Now me, I don't buy the crap that Jameson guy spouts out...I mean would you trust a guy with a 'stache like....that?"

Suddenly he turns around and notices Brock gone. We soon see Spider-Man dispatching the latest goons and narrowly escaping. He ducks into an alley looking for a new path.

Basically from here, he notices his powers shorting out, and Brock steps in, still eager to earn ol' Pete's trust. Pete, not wanting to 1, give Brock the baby and 2, inform him of the power shorting side effect, remembers Brock impersonated him in New Ways to Die and suggests Brock divert attention for a bit while he gets the baby to safety. Brock makes a comment about being thrown under the bus, and Spidey makes a quip that this is for everything (from all the beat downs, to spawning Carnage and scaring his wife) Brock blankly questions him getting married. Spidey tells toothy to get going. (Okay, the wife part is stupid on my part, but I just thought it sounded funnier in my head)

Anyways, Brock helps settle things down for a bit, but Doc Ock planned for a potential sudden ally. "Heroes always have a knack for miraculous coincidences...I will not allow for dumb luck to position the arachnid alongside an ally for long." He sends out other agents, one of which is the Gargan faced Gargan-headded Mac. (His inclusion is to tie him into his reversion back to ol' Scorpy for Big Time and maybe to tie into the Carnage special if it isn't crap??? Yea I dunno about that...)

Of course, somehow Brock screws up when Gargan is there and the other peeps realize that Brock was Spidey. The other special squad is now fighting Spidey. (who has now managed to hole the baby up in a hospital and sneak away, but not before pulling another switcheroo; at the hospital, he managed to find sympathetic people there who decide to help him, he also meets a little girl who is a HUGE Spidey fan, and gives him her doll. He wraps it up as a decoy and continues to fight AWAY (but not far enough so he can keep tabs on the hospital) <---I feel this is important; showing more people coming together to believe in Spidey, but since it's a bit lengthy, it's told partially in flashback snippets during his fight with the current ugiles.

Brock and Gargan aren't really featured, but their main struggle could be covered in that one-shot that was supposed to happen forever ago or it could be retold in Big Time if time is short.

Eventually Doc Ock himself shows up after Spidey is getting drained (in a similar manner to the wearing down of Batman in Knight Fall, but in a slightly sped up manner) after the gauntlet is thrown down over and over again. A beaten and bloody Spidey loses the baby to Ock in the way we posted about a bit ago, then you have some wacky reason for the heroes not showing up and the previously mentioned lead ins to his new status are followed through. (I didn't really feel like re typing what me and MD posted in the previous page)

While my idea isn't the best, and a bit controversial due to the inclusion of Brock, I think it works a bit here and there. Now, I could be seen as a Brock fanboy for including him, but I think he works for the sole reason that he can, as an ally, shape shift, thus allowing Spidey to get precious moments away from the madness, to get the baby safe and distract and defeat the baddies. But of course, Ock being desperate, eventually counters Pete and gets the baby for story purposes, and this leads to bigger things eventually. I don't know how I'd go about it, but my inclusion of Gargan was to divert Brock and not have him take away too much attention, but set up for other things. Another factor of dealing with their grudge here is because, Carnage is coming back and I'm unsure of how much of a push the new incarnation may get. I was thinking Brock either seriously BLaRgHs up the symbiote or kills it; either way, the effect is enough, via psychic scream, to some how give the Carnage symbiote in space that final push to return to Earth (how this will happen I have no IDEA since re-entry would toast it, unless it's bonded to something offering it protection, or frozen in some rocky....rock...rockness. I don't know. No one's accused me of being a brilliant writer, so I'm forgetting that.

Anyways, sorry for the uber long post. It's just that whenever I have to writer a paper, I always get storyline ideas or "How I would fix this" moments.

 

[Dragon]

Yet, if we read this story in 1974, we'd still be talking about how friggin' great it was...

If I'd read the story in 1974 I'd have been 9 years old. And I'd still probably think it was crap. And I wouldn't have spent the next 36 years following Spidey. I mean, Gerry Conway had some hokiness to his run, but none of his stories were as bad as anything produced during BND.

And are you really saying that your standard is the same as when you were a kid?

 

[USMC]

Yet, if we read this story in 1974, we'd still be talking about how friggin' great it was...

Ah, c'mon TMOB.... not everything that comes out of Spidey since BND is gold-plated. lol t:

I, personally, am not even bothered by the storyline... yes, it doesn't make perfect logical sense in regards to the safety of the baby, but it sounds like everyone is just being nitpicky because they don't like anything to do with BND or OMIT. I can suspend belief simply because it is a comic book and all that.

My issue with this storyline is not the danger to the baby, it's the fact that it's basically a 3-issue chase scene. To me, that speaks more of lackluster writing than Spidey swinging to Avengers HQ to protect the baby.

 

[Themanofbat]

And are you really saying that your standard is the same as when you were a kid?

Nope... I loved the hokey stuff as a kid... a LOT more than I do now, though at times, I can appreciate an old-school story... which is how I see this one... a big chase scene with Spidey holding a baby... my friend USMC states it best below...

I, personally, am not even bothered by the storyline... yes, it doesn't make perfect logical sense in regards to the safety of the baby, but it sounds like everyone is just being nitpicky because they don't like anything to do with BND or OMIT. I can suspend belief simply because it is a comic book and all that.

My issue with this storyline is not the danger to the baby, it's the fact that it's basically a 3-issue chase scene. To me, that speaks more of lackluster writing than Spidey swinging to Avengers HQ to protect the baby.

I agree that we could have done all that within 1 to 2 issues, but it's been a fun ride so far, and judging by today's cliffhaner, the final part should be a doozy...

If I'd read the story in 1974 I'd have been 9 years old. And I'd still probably think it was crap. And I wouldn't have spent the next 36 years following Spidey. I mean, Gerry Conway had some hokiness to his run, but none of his stories were as bad as anything produced during BND.

So when I was about 9 years old (circa 1976), even I thought the Spider-Mobile was a moan/groan idea... especially ASM #160 where Spidey has a "hard time" fighting his own car...

But similarly to this story, it's one of those things where you have to suspend your thoughts and just simply enjoy (or not) the story.

While the art has been atrocious, I've been liking Origin of the Species, and I know you have not... and that's cool.... there's nothing that states we have to enjoy the same stories... but I somehow doubt that IF you had read this story in 1974, you would have stopped reading ASM... because if that's the case, you probably would have stopped with the Spider-Mobile, or the Aunt May/Doc Ock wedding, or the ghost of Hammerhead that came back to life, or any number of hokey stories of that era... you would have been "Awesome... Spidey is facing a bunch of his foes and the police while trying to save the Goblin Baby. This story is rock solid!!!" (or something like that).

 

[SpideyInATree]

My issue with this storyline is not the danger to the baby, it's the fact that it's basically a 3-issue chase scene. To me, that speaks more of lackluster writing than Spidey swinging to Avengers HQ to protect the baby.

That's my main gripe with this storyline as well. Just padded way too much. The chase scenes were cool. The Sandman/Electro confrontation and then that whole part last issue with Mysterio/Vulture/Freak. However, that could have just been one issue instead of stretching over two full issues.

I think that's what I'm looking forward to Dan Slott's run. We have two issues a month and maybe less of a chance of padding coming into effect. That's what a lot of the Brand New Day stories have had a problem with, the writing for the trade syndrome. Roger Stern's Juggernaut storyline is the other one that came to mind. Cool storyline but just padded too much.

 

[Dragon]

Nope... I loved the hokey stuff as a kid... a LOT more than I do now, though at times, I can appreciate an old-school story... which is how I see this one... a big chase scene with Spidey holding a baby... my friend USMC states it best below...

I've also mentioned the three issue chase thing. And I wouldn't mind a three issue chase if he'd actually gotten somewhere. But as such, it's just more padding to extend the storyline.

But the safety of the baby isn't nitpicking. It's the point of the story. And had Waid addressed it, it didn't have to in anyway slow down the story or take away from the action. It would have created additional drama.

As for hokiness in the 70's versus now; yeah, we had Conway's whacky interpretation of the spider sense (Friends don't set it off- even freinds trying to kill Pete ) Yeah, we had Aunt May's wedding to Ock, which I'll get into later.. But now we have a woman in labor flying into a coffee shop on a Goblin flyer. Even DC's crew in the 60's and 70's would've balked on that one.

I agree that we could have done all that within 1 to 2 issues, but it's been a fun ride so far, and judging by today's cliffhaner, the final part should be a doozy...



So when I was about 9 years old (circa 1976), even I thought the Spider-Mobile was a moan/groan idea... especially ASM #160 where Spidey has a "hard time" fighting his own car...

But similarly to this story, it's one of those things where you have to suspend your thoughts and just simply enjoy (or not) the story.

While the art has been atrocious, I've been liking Origin of the Species, and I know you have not... and that's cool.... there's nothing that states we have to enjoy the same stories... but I somehow doubt that IF you had read this story in 1974, you would have stopped reading ASM... because if that's the case, you probably would have stopped with the Spider-Mobile, or the Aunt May/Doc Ock wedding, or the ghost of Hammerhead that came back to life, or any number of hokey stories of that era... you would have been "Awesome... Spidey is facing a bunch of his foes and the police while trying to save the Goblin Baby. This story is rock solid!!!" (or something like that).

I agree that Ock marrying May was a cheese-ball gimmick. There were certainly other ways that Ock could have swindled May out of her Nuke plant, if she was so infatuated with him as to be willing to work for him even after his arrest. But then, we now have May's marriage to JJJ Sr., which is equally a gimmick. The only point is to create the strain on Peter of now being a relative of Jonah's.

As for the Hammerhead's Ghost thing, I honestly have no problem with it. It was an interesting way of explaining how he survived the blast at the nuclear plant. Yeah, the Spider-moblie was also kind of dumb. But I don't think it was meant to be anything but, which is why it's appearances were limited and Spidey never used it as a serious weapon in his crime-fighting arsenal. Same even with Spidey's "battle" against it. A One-shot story to jettison the concept.

But I'll say this for then versus now- Joe Q and his boys would've turned the Spider-mobile into a multi-issue recurring storyline. Look at the Iron Spider concept.

Back in the 70's after Gwen's death, Spidey took on a darker approach with rather complex storylines and subplots. And they were always resolved in a reasonable period of time and much of the time with interesting results. It was pretty much after the Hamilton-Goblin storyline and Len Wein's exit where things started to get gooey. Marv Wolfman's run was pretty good, although the inconsistent art hurt it. After Wolfman left, Spidey went down the tubes until Stern came on, but by that time, Marvel's editorial policy had become problematic and there was but so much Stern could do.


But look at what we have since Quesada's reign- Totems, Sin's Past, Civil War, OMD all resulting in resolutions that both Marvel and the fans are still aching over.

Back in the 70's there were no mulit-issues of padding as is done pretty much every storyline now. A story needed only two-issues, it lasted two issues. I may not agree with every choice made during that time, but the choices made were usually reasonbale based on Spidey's established character. Nowadays he's all over the place. Decisions are made not based on character, but on content. And Peter is the round-peg pounded into the square hole at pretty much every turn. Simple things such as ending a marriage are turned into kitchen-sink mish-mashes that when all is said and done still leaves folks scratching their heads. Like I said to Meehaul- it isn't so much a problem for me that the marriage ended. i didn't like how it was handled in the first place- But the the fact that after ll this time the only resolution they could find was MJ being afraid of a life with Spidey, when she had long ago been established to be able to handle the danger is just another in a constant string of examples that these guys have no real plan.

i give the 60's and 70's no more graces than i do the writers now. But the thing that really bugs me about the current stuff is that these guys have it easy. All the hard work of establishing character and creating a great cast and rogues gallery was done by Stan and his crew. And yet still they struggle with the simpest of story concepts. When i re-read the early stuff, I don't need to switch my mind off to enjoy it. Sure there's suspension of disbelief, as exists with any fiction expecially entering the sci-fi fantasy realm. But my problem with the current stuff is that even after accepting that the fantastic is possible, there's just one string of dumbness after another. It would've been pretty powerful drama IMO to have Peter perhaps, realize that he was doing as much to endager the child as Ock (Again, in light of Gwen's death), and actually allowing Ock to spirit the baby away- and then have Peter obsessively fight to save the baby, than what we've been given. I think at this point these guys should be breaking new ground.

 

[Themanofbat]

I also have SEVERE issues with the "pad the story for the trade" method of writing nowadays, so I have no arguments with you on that...

 

[Spider-Gnome]

Dragon, nice post. I agree and relate.

This storyline is definitely all padding, one long chase. I don't know if I posted it, but after reading the second issue, I thought back in the 70's, that would have been one page or two at the most of an issue.

And what a JUST NEWLY BORN BABY is going through? Seriously? I honestly believed Chameleon as Harry when he said the baby died, because it would have been the first thing to make sense in this story.

That "Back in the 70's after Gwen's death" was when I started reading (actually ish #120), so I have fond memories of that era. And the "Hamilton-Goblin storyline" was the last good storyline I remember before I drifted away, only to come back with the intro of Hobgoblin (and return of MJ).

And although Totems didn't bother me totally (I still side with the original "scientific" origin), once Sins Past started, Spidey has hit the skids and still hasn't recovered.

Ironically, I like what's going on in the larger MU now than I did before. So I guess I give Quesada credit for that.