Apocalypse The Official Sophie Turner/Jean Grey Thread - Part 2

[DarknessOfDeath]

I'm sure we'll probably get an explanation or perhaps it is one of the deleted scenes..

 

[Havok83]

Is there a possibility for that Phoenix force entity like in the comics and that its not part of her mutation?

There's nothing to suggest that it's some separate entity and that doesn't work with the established narrative from X3 to DOFP to this

 

[DarknessOfDeath]

I would just forget everything X3 was meant to have happened cause that version doesn't exist to me anymore. Dofp...again I'll have to watch again but honestly they could have saved dofp for another opportunity. Either make a sequel between what happened after FC leading into Apocalypse.

Oh well it doesn't matter now. It is what it is.

I'm sure they'll possibly give a much better explanation of the Phoenix choosing Jean if they go there at some point. If I were them...I'd like to see one more film take place before the end of the 80s.

 

[Havok83]

I would just forget everything X3 was meant to have happened cause that version doesn't exist to me anymore. Dofp...again I'll have to watch again but honestly they could have saved dofp for another opportunity. Either make a sequel between what happened after FC leading into Apocalypse.

Oh well it doesn't matter now. It is what it is.

I'm sure they'll possibly give a much better explanation of the Phoenix choosing Jean if they go there at some point. If I were them...I'd like to see one more film take place before the end of the 80s.

well you cant. X3 is no longer the valid future for the characters but the film is still canon. It was core to Xavier's development in DOFP and this film and without it, Jean's story arc in Apocalypse loses a bit of its significance. Saying that the PF is now some seperate entity is a contradiction and takes away from all this. The Phoenix as established in the films is an extension of Jean's powers.

In the OT, Xavier placed mental blocks on her powers which caused her to go insane and lose control she finally got full access to her powers as an adult. It ultimately leads to destruction and her own death. In DOFP, future Xavier showed past Xavier a vision of this and as a result he has been set on righting that wrong. Instead of supressing Jean, he encouraged her to embrace her powers and they manifested now as a teen where she can properly be trained.

I dont see where an entity fits into this. In the books, that was retconed as the PF bonding with her in space when she and her team nearly died. Teen Jean hadnt encountered such an event that would have prompted that. IMO, it would unnecesarily complicate things when its best to keep it simple as they have

 

[DarknessOfDeath]

Well mind you, there were elements of X3 I liked but most of them were poorly executed. Its my own choice to forget most of it and while it may still be canon, I've accepted long ago there won't be another film with the original cast. Might as well embrace what we have now. Not saying everyone should. That's their choice. I understand the backlash its getting but I'm done with bashing the crap out of the Xverse and Fox. They're not perfect...and even the MCU had some disappointments. I'm leaving my mind open to whats to come moving forward.

So as of right now, Sophie pretty much is Jean Grey to my eyes.

 

[DACrowe]

Is there a possibility for that Phoenix force entity like in the comics and that its not part of her mutation?

I suspect that it is. Apocalypse saying, "All is revealed" to me could mean just that. Sure he might be referring to him finally meeting a stronger mutant than himself, however I believe he recognizes that energy radiating out of Jean. And since his tech right but unearthly (the body switching stuff does look like Celestial stuff from the comics), I could see that happening in a future film.

Assuming of course, they ever pursue the Dark Phoenix storyline or go to space where that would likely become a big plot point.

 

[DACrowe]

There's nothing to suggest that it's some separate entity and that doesn't work with the established narrative from X3 to DOFP to this

It could easily be revealed that the Phoenix is a separate entity and implied that Xavier and the X-Men never realized this until the Shi'Ar (or whoever) reveals the truth. Which means that Charles just had no clue what he was dealing with in X3. Again, "All is revealed" might hint at just that.

 

[Havok83]

It could easily be revealed that the Phoenix is a separate entity and implied that Xavier and the X-Men never realized this until the Shi'Ar (or whoever) reveals the truth. Which means that Charles just had no clue what he was dealing with in X3. Again, "All is revealed" might hint at just that.

IMO, that would be silly and unnecesary and undermines part of Xavier's development in this series as well as Jeans

 

[DavidHaller]

IMO, that would be silly and unnecesary and undermines part of Xavier's development in this series as well as Jeans

why is it so complicated to combine both aspects with each other?

Jean Grey's ability increases to an unlimited level to omnipotence and thus she is able to contact/attract/become a cosmic force on different plane of existence.

The whole Phoenix myth in the comic book is not entirely clearly defined. Is Jean the Phoenix or not? What separates Jean from the cosmic entity Phoenix? Did Jean Grey transcendent her human existence and became a cosmic force? We do not really know what exactly separates the human Jean Grey from the cosmic Phoenix. Several authors have different opinions on that. Morrison for example retconned the whole Jean Grey-clone idea for the Phoenix Saga in his run and introduced the Phoenix egg which house a new rebirthed Jean Grey after her old body has been killed. But Morrison also made it clear that Jean loses her humanity and transcendents into something godly!

So maybe leave it also open in the movie version! It is only important that Jean transcendent her humanity and becomes something else!

 

[DarknessOfDeath]

why is it so complicated to combine both aspects with each other?

Jean Grey's ability increases to an unlimited level to omnipotence and thus she is able to contact/attract/become a cosmic force on different plane of existence.

The whole Phoenix myth in the comic book is not entirely clearly defined. Is Jean the Phoenix or not? What separates Jean from the cosmic entity Phoenix? Did Jean Grey transcendent her human existence and became a cosmic force? We do not really know what exactly separates the human Jean Grey from the cosmic Phoenix. Several authors have different opinions on that. Morrison for example retconned the whole Jean Grey-clone idea for the Phoenix Saga in his run and introduced the Phoenix egg which house a new rebirthed Jean Grey after her old body has been killed. But Morrison also made it clear that Jean loses her humanity and transcendents into something godly!

So maybe leave it also open in the movie version! It is only important that Jean transcendent her humanity and becomes something else!

Watching where I left off of GoT thanks to Sophie...she gave me the reason to catch up on the show.

 

[Havok83]

why is it so complicated to combine both aspects with each other?

Jean Grey's ability increases to an unlimited level to omnipotence and thus she is able to contact/attract/become a cosmic force on different plane of existence.

If her powers have evolved to become so powerful to an unlimited level, why does some cosmic force have to be introduced? At this point, said force seems rather redundant as it adds nothing to Jean. A cosnic force only makes sense before her powers evolve, but since they already did, I dont see what the point of giving her some external PF. It complicates something that was easy enough to understand in this film.

The whole Phoenix myth in the comic book is not entirely clearly defined. Is Jean the Phoenix or not? What separates Jean from the cosmic entity Phoenix? Did Jean Grey transcendent her human existence and became a cosmic force? We do not really know what exactly separates the human Jean Grey from the cosmic Phoenix. Several authors have different opinions on that. Morrison for example retconned the whole Jean Grey-clone idea for the Phoenix Saga in his run and introduced the Phoenix egg which house a new rebirthed Jean Grey after her old body has been killed. But Morrison also made it clear that Jean loses her humanity and transcendents into something godly!

So maybe leave it also open in the movie version! It is only important that Jean transcendent her humanity and becomes something else!

It was clearly defined in the books. The original story had no cosmic entity. Jean's powers accelerated and she took on a new codename to symbolize her evolution into Phoenix. Morrison's just expanded on that. Even the X-Factor retcon was clearly defined as it changed things so that some cosmic force cloned her body and took her place. Those were the two versions of the Phoenix interpretation that Marvel used for Jean. It wasnt really all that ambiguos

 

[DarknessOfDeath]

I love Sophie's sense of humor. Lols. What a dork. Heh. She did a song for James. Lol. Hilarious when I'm trying hard not to be like Xavier when he says to Alex, "What kind of a pervert do you take me for?" Lols

 

[psylockolussus]

I suspect that it is. Apocalypse saying, "All is revealed" to me could mean just that. Sure he might be referring to him finally meeting a stronger mutant than himself, however I believe he recognizes that energy radiating out of Jean. And since his tech right but unearthly (the body switching stuff does look like Celestial stuff from the comics), I could see that happening in a future film.

Assuming of course, they ever pursue the Dark Phoenix storyline or go to space where that would likely become a big plot point.

Thats great.

Because some people didn't like Phoenix reveal in this movie.

And I guess it'd be easier to introduce Shi'ar with that.

 

[CaptainCanada]

I'm confused why anybody would want to see the Phoenix Force. The Phoenix Force was a gigantic retcon to bring Jean back and remove her culpability. In a story with the Phoenix Force, the result is that it's way less about Jean's character than it is about a cosmic pest.

 

[DACrowe]

IMO, that would be silly and unnecesary and undermines part of Xavier's development in this series as well as Jeans

I don't see why at all. It just means that this is something greater than Xavier's understanding. It also opens up the storyline for a really fascinating conflict if/when this is broached (several films down the road, assuming the franchise goes so long). It is kind of like a possession story and the team is fighting to save Jean's life and soul as opposed to just an external bad guy.

I think it has a ton of potential.

 

[Havok83]

I'm confused why anybody would want to see the Phoenix Force. The Phoenix Force was a gigantic retcon to bring Jean back and remove her culpability. In a story with the Phoenix Force, the result is that it's way less about Jean's character than it is about a cosmic pest.

Agreed.

I don't see why at all. It just means that this is something greater than Xavier's understanding. It also opens up the storyline for a really fascinating conflict if/when this is broached (several films down the road, assuming the franchise goes so long). It is kind of like a possession story and the team is fighting to save Jean's life and soul as opposed to just an external bad guy.

I think it has a ton of potential.

the better conflict is if it is JEAN that they are dealing with. Alot of that is lost if its just some entity possessing her that they try to get rid of. Its ironic that you say as opposed to just an external bad guy, but thats exactly what the PF would be, bc it's not Jean; its some corrupt entity that possesses her.

 

[DACrowe]

Yes, but if it is closer to Linda Blair than Darth Vader, then it is a very different kind of plot than any superhero movie before it. And it would still be about Jean physically battling it while all of the X-Men also have to grapple with Jean is losing herself in this monster. It is a unique place to go in the genre.

 

[Loki882]

I don't need The Phoenix to be a giant cosmic firebird personally. The explanation that they seemed to be building in X1 and X2, that Jean's powers were evolving even beyond those of other mutants, would have worked just fine for me. The retcon in X3 however, that was just lame.

 

[DavidHaller]

I agree that the Phoenix Force makes things a lot more complicated. Especially the retcon that the Phoenix Force is actually a cosmic parasite which can attach itself to any human host...the whole Grey family genome was annihilated by the Shi'Ar for nothing basically: "Oops, our mistake! We thought the Phoenix emerges from the Grey bloodline but the Phoenix actually likes everybody equally and has nothing particularly to do with Jean Grey and Rachel Grey."

But they could still introduce a myth from the Shi'Ar religion which relates to a cosmic entity and brings some mythological weight to Jean's devlopment. Something similar they did with Cassandra Nova in the comic books. In the end we don't really know what Cassandra Nova is. Is she a mummudrai in the sense of Shi'Ar mythology or is she simply Xavier's crazy twin sister born without a physical body?

I wouldn't mind some Shi'Ar connection for Phoenix.

 

[Havok83]

Yes, but if it is closer to Linda Blair than Darth Vader, then it is a very different kind of plot than any superhero movie before it. And it would still be about Jean physically battling it while all of the X-Men also have to grapple with Jean is losing herself in this monster. It is a unique place to go in the genre.

That sounds similar to TLS without the cosmic angle when they made the Phoenix, some alternate personality inside of Jean.

I agree that the Phoenix Force makes things a lot more complicated. Especially the retcon that the Phoenix Force is actually a cosmic parasite which can attach itself to any human host...the whole Grey family genome was annihilated by the Shi'Ar for nothing basically: "Oops, our mistake! We thought the Phoenix emerges from the Grey bloodline but the Phoenix actually likes everybody equally and has nothing particularly to do with Jean Grey and Rachel Grey."

But they could still introduce a myth from the Shi'Ar religion which relates to a cosmic entity and brings some mythological weight to Jean's devlopment. Something similar they did with Cassandra Nova in the comic books. In the end we don't really know what Cassandra Nova is. Is she a mummudrai in the sense of Shi'Ar mythology or is she simply Xavier's crazy twin sister born without a physical body?

I wouldn't mind some Shi'Ar connection for Phoenix.

That's reminiscent of the Ultimate X-men take on Phoenix. I actually wouldnt mind that. I really dont see how Nova relates to any of this though

 

[Mad Ones]

I'm confused why anybody would want to see the Phoenix Force. The Phoenix Force was a gigantic retcon to bring Jean back and remove her culpability. In a story with the Phoenix Force, the result is that it's way less about Jean's character than it is about a cosmic pest.

bingo

 

[DACrowe]

That sounds similar to TLS without the cosmic angle when they made the Phoenix, some alternate personality inside of Jean.


That's reminiscent of the Ultimate X-men take on Phoenix. I actually wouldnt mind that. I really dont see how Nova relates to any of this though

The Last Stand toyed with that idea on the most basic and surface level. I want to make this more about Jean and her friends trying to save her from herself than she is just some passive character who has no arc, her friends (other than Logan) want to kill her, and she does nothing the whole movie but forces the hero to save her as a damsel from herself.

There are much better and more sophisticated ways of approaching such a storyline, including in of all things, the Saturday Morning X-Men cartoon show from the '90s. The Last Stand just fails on so many levels.

 

[Havok83]

The Last Stand toyed with that idea on the most basic and surface level. I want to make this more about Jean and her friends trying to save her from herself than she is just some passive character who has no arc, her friends (other than Logan) want to kill her, and she does nothing the whole movie but forces the hero to save her as a damsel from herself.

There are much better and more sophisticated ways of approaching such a storyline, including in of all things, the Saturday Morning X-Men cartoon show from the '90s. The Last Stand just fails on so many levels.

I cant exactly argue there

 

[CaptainCanada]

Sophie is Glamour UK's TV actress of the year.

 

[conan69]

The Last Stand just fails on so many levels.

With the Phoenix story, it absolutely does. Everything Xavier, Jean and Wolverine fails in that film ( I got a advanced copy of the novel and reviewed it early here many years ago and said exactly this).


I think the cure story works well.