The Official Superman Thread - Part 1

[Superman_]

Ummmm....how did Roberson retcon away JMS' stuff? Superman being in an emotional turmoil due events such as his father's death and the destruction of New Krypton was always in play when JMS was writing the book.

The problem with that is that all that got lost when JMS was writing the title because his whole run on Superman he barely even spoke about or dealt with the events of New Krypton. The way it came off is he started his walk after that woman slapped him. Not because of all the things that have happened. However after your post in the Batman thread I now see what you are talking about and actually get why Flash and the other heroes are in the forefront more in terms of leading the DCU.

 

[hippie_hunter]

The problem with that is that all that got lost when JMS was writing the title because his whole run on Superman he barely even spoke about or dealt with the events of New Krypton.

Actually the start of JMS' run in Superman #700 dealt with Superman leaving Congress to testify about New Krypton. The whole point of Grounded, the one that JMS intended to tell, was to re-establish Superman's connection to humanity after spending one year's worth of comic book time on New Krypton and to re-define it as well, and of course have him process the grief that he's feeling over the deaths of Pa Kent and his native homeworld.

The way it came off is he started his walk after that woman slapped him.

I honestly think that people are reading a completely different scene than what was actually portrayed. As a result of Superman leaving Earth for New Krypton and the 100 Minute War, people feel betrayed by Superman. They depended on him to protect them and they feel like he failed them. And in some cases, they expected too much from him, such as the woman who slapped him. Superman knew that he needed to re-establish his connection to humanity, but this in particular made him realize that he also needed to re-define it.

Even though Superman doesn't blame himself for the death of the woman's husband and most of the crowd saw her as a crazy lady, Superman still took the time to reflect on it and do something about it. The point of the walk is to also show that Superman deep down is as human as they are to a certain extent, that he is not the god that some see him as. He isn't out to just punch things to make them go away, he's actually attempting to solve them for the long term (like getting rid of the drug dealers in Philadelphia, re-establishing industry in Detroit and even more down to Earth issues such as dealing with abuse in a household). And the reason why he's doing this is because he cares. The whole point is to show that he cares. If he didn't care, he could have just brushed aside the woman as crazy as the rest of the crowd did. He wouldn't have found a place in society for the aliens hiding on Earth. He would have passed by that abused child. He wouldn't have just waited with that woman wanting to commit suicide.

Not because of all the things that have happened.

But it isn't just the realization that people expected too much of Superman or feel betrayed by him. JMS planted some seeds of exploring Superman's unprocessed grief by having him talk to people in a bizarre way and then him leaving asking him what the **** he just meant? Or Lois and Dick questioning him and his reactions towards them.

The beginning of Grounded even pretty much stated that as soon as the 100 Minute War ended, Superman went straight back to work, just like how Superman went straight back to work dealing with the return of Kandor after the death of Pa Kent. And the scene between Dick and Superman had Dick flatout say that he thinks that Superman's walk is the result of Superman having an emotional breakdown due to what has happened and that the walk is his subconscious attempting to go back to something more simple. Like I said, seeds have been planted even when JMS was on the book that a lot of this has to do with not only a Superman trying to re-establish himself and his relations, but also a Superman who is emotionally out of it due to the lack of him taking the time to process and grieve. Which gives an explanation to some of Superman's out-of-character characterizations (like his frosty reaction to Dick, his attitude towards Lois, and talking to some random person about Thoreau).

The problem is that JMS left the books before he really could go deeper into them and unlike Phil Hester on Wonder Woman, Chris Roberson is failing to deliver what JMS intended to do with Superman. Though to be fair, Roberson has a much harder job than Hester. Odyssey and Grounded are two completely different stories and it's easier to do what JMS intended to do with Wonder Woman in Odyssey, I think the only person who could do what JMS intended to do with Superman in Grounded competently is well....JMS.

However after your post in the Batman thread I now see what you are talking about and actually get why Flash and the other heroes are in the forefront more in terms of leading the DCU.

I think that once Grounded is finally done, I think that we're going to see a Superman that is more leader like in the DCU.

 

[Tron Bonne]

Recton isn't the right word, I don't think, but I get what BW is saying. That page, for example, really kind of wiped away that scene earlier between Dick and Supes that was beyond nonsensical, and probably one of the dumbest things I've read in a good 4-5 years. And the entire thing with Superman's nonsencial *****ebagness being some kind of mind control thing, as well.

Could have been the plan all along, but it seems a strange coincidence that all of this stuff came about after Roberson took over.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Recton isn't the right word, I don't think, but I get what BW is saying. That page, for example, really kind of wiped away that scene earlier between Dick and Supes that was beyond nonsensical, and probably one of the dumbest things I've read in a good 4-5 years. And the entire thing with Superman's nonsencial *****ebagness being some kind of mind control thing, as well.

Could have been the plan all along, but it seems a strange coincidence that all of this stuff came about after Roberson took over.

Except the scene between Dick and Supes even had Dick tell Superman the exact same things that Bruce did, that he hasn't taken the time to emotionally process all that has been going on with his life and that he's having an emotional breakdown.

 

[Mystirious]

But it isn't just the realization that people expected too much of Superman or feel betrayed by him. JMS planted some seeds of exploring Superman's unprocessed grief by having him talk to people in a bizarre way and then him leaving asking him what the **** he just meant?

That might have been JMS's intent but it honestly just seemed like bad writing to me

 

[hippie_hunter]

That might have been JMS's intent but it honestly just seemed like bad writing to me

So good writing is having things come out of nowhere? It showed that Superman is just out of it. Even though he still cares, and is still being a hero, he is just out of it.

Or would it have been better to have Superman acting normally and then start breaking down out of nowhere?

 

[Tron Bonne]

Except the scene between Dick and Supes even had Dick tell Superman the exact same things that Bruce did, that he hasn't taken the time to emotionally process all that has been going on with his life and that he's having an emotional breakdown.

How did that tell us that at all?

 

[hippie_hunter]

How did that tell us that at all?

This is Dick's dialog from issue #703:

"Look, I'll get right to the point. You just lost your whole world for the second time. I can understand what you're feeling. My point being that there's a huge emotional price that I think you're literally running fromg...going back to one world without really dealing with what happened to the other, and...and you're flailing, you're trying to latch onto a memory of a better time, when the world was smaller, and you could go home, and I think you're having an emotional breakdown. And I think you need to stop this. Right now. Before somebody gets hurt."

He flat out says it. Flat. Out.

 

[Tron Bonne]

This is Dick's dialog from issue #703:

"Look, I'll get right to the point. You just lost your whole world for the second time. I can understand what you're feeling. My point being that there's a huge emotional price that I think you're literally running from...going back to one world without really dealing with what happened to the other, and...and you're flailing, you're trying to latch onto a memory of a better time, when the world was smaller, and you could go home, and I think you're having an emotional breakdown. And I think you need to stop this. Right now. Before somebody gets hurt."

He flat out says it. Flat. Out.

Well, okay, that is fair enough, I guess, but I think the real problem is that we never actually got a feel of this from Superman himself. Instead, we got a Superman who was being insanely pretentious and has said some of the dumbest stuff written in comics of recent memory. We never got a sense of confusion from him, of struggle, just simply him being a dick to connect to the people. Roberson helped show that there was more going, there was an influence, and actually Superman be kind of unsure of his shift from black and white to moral ambiguity in his first issue. I just don't believe there was as much a sense that 'something is wrong with Superman' in the JMS scripted issues, because the way these things were delivered seemed pretty straight from what I read.

 

[BrianWilly]

Yeah okay, you seriously don't see how Robertson has been full-on calling JMS out on his idiot speeches that he had Superman make? Not the least of which was that Batman apparently doesn't care about drug dealers or gangsters. It's partially the wording, and partially the tone. First of all, I completely disagree that the JMS issues depicted Superman as being confused or grief-stricken and that's why he said what he said. We thought he was incoherent and nonsensical, but the story didn't. And he was grieving, yes, but the words he actually said -- not just to Dick, but to everyone he met -- were meant to come across as these profound gems of super-wisdom that cut away everyone else's bulls**t. There's simply no way that the audience was supposed read that Thoreau line or the "over there has to stand for itself"(????) speech or the illegal aliens adventure or the child abuse sermon and think, Gee, I'll bet Superman's hella confused and that's why he's talking like this. Again, obviously they came across that way to us because they're s**t writing and pretentious as hell to boot, but they certainly wasn't supposed to. They were supposed to be taken at face value and so was his spiel to Dick. The "walk" was in no way depicted as some grief-induced madness; the walk was the cure that, in JMS's mind, placed Superman back to the mindset where he truly belonged.

And then Robertson came along and, seriously, just look at the difference in tone and language that has occurred. Superman was no longer "getting back to his roots" or "feeling the earth" or however JMS was depicting this ongoing experience. Now he's grieving, he's confused, he's mind-controlled, and apparently he's been misinterpreting the situation and everyone around him since the very beginning. Hell, the whole mind-control business was strongly suggested in the very first issue that Robertson wrote!

And then Flash was like, "Wait, you thought I was serious when I said what I said under JMS's pen? Dumbass. I was totally kidding!"[/slight paraphrase]

And now Batman's like "Sooo Dick thought you were crazy or something when you were talking your gibberish at him and was afraid you might go further apes**t. Just thought you should know." [/barely-noticeable exaggeration]

 

[BrianWilly]

This is Dick's dialog from issue #703:

"Look, I'll get right to the point. You just lost your whole world for the second time. I can understand what you're feeling. My point being that there's a huge emotional price that I think you're literally running fromg...going back to one world without really dealing with what happened to the other, and...and you're flailing, you're trying to latch onto a memory of a better time, when the world was smaller, and you could go home, and I think you're having an emotional breakdown. And I think you need to stop this. Right now. Before somebody gets hurt."

He flat out says it. Flat. Out.

Case in point. In this sequence, Dick's supposed to come across as the one in the wrong there. Narratively speaking, he's the conflict that the protagonist Superman has to overcome. Much like the fat reporter that Superman publicly humiliated after he asked Superman a very reasonable question, he's the doubter, the skeptic, that Superman has to prove wrong. When Superman refutes Dick's accusations -- again, with some very idiot logic indeed -- it was meant to be no different from him gloriously sitting in his Thoreau-prison in the earlier issue.

Hell, just look at the very different responses that Superman gives to the idea that he's simply grieving. In JMS's issue he was like, "No, I'm doing the right thing, the thing that you and others like us won't do." And here in Robertson's issue? He's far more receptive to the idea. Simply having others accuse Superman of grief-stricken delusions doesn't meant that the stories are the same...it's how they or Superman come across in the scene. Dick-Bats came across as the conflict. Bruce-Bats comes across as the resolution.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Well, okay, that is fair enough, I guess, but I think the real problem is that we never actually got a feel of this from Superman himself. Instead, we got a Superman who was being insanely pretentious and has said some of the dumbest stuff written in comics of recent memory. We never got a sense of confusion from him, of struggle, just simply him being a dick to connect to the people.

The senses of confusion come from scenes like in Superman #701 where Superman essentially started on his walk without telling Lois and even going as far as brushing her off after she questioned him why he was doing this and when the guy in Philadelphia questioned him why he was doing this and Superman went into a pretentious tangent about Thoreau and left with the guy screaming and demanding just what the hell he was talking about. Or in Superman #703 where Superman completely brushed off Dick's valid concerns. Or in Superman #705 where Superman didn't defend himself against people's accusations that he brings trouble and Superman admitted to Lois that he's not sure that they're wrong.

Those scenes specifically show that Superman has either been out of it and has a sense of confusion about himself.

Roberson helped show that there was more going, there was an influence, and actually Superman be kind of unsure of his shift from black and white to moral ambiguity in his first issue. I just don't believe there was as much a sense that 'something is wrong with Superman' in the JMS scripted issues, because the way these things were delivered seemed pretty straight from what I read.

Like I said, I honestly think that a lot of people are reading a completely different story than what JMS has produced. Seeds had been planted about Superman being in an emotional breakdown, but before they could sprout, JMS left the book after writing three issues out of a twelve issue story.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Case in point. In this sequence, Dick's supposed to come across as the one in the wrong there. Narratively speaking, he's the conflict that the protagonist Superman has to overcome. Much like the fat reporter that Superman publicly humiliated after he asked Superman a very reasonable question, he's the doubter, the skeptic, that Superman has to prove wrong. When Superman refutes Dick's accusations -- again, with some very idiot logic indeed -- it was meant to be no different from him gloriously sitting in his Thoreau-prison in the earlier issue.

Hell, just look at the very different responses that Superman gives to the idea that he's simply grieving. In JMS's issue he was like, "No, I'm doing the right thing, the thing that you and others like us won't do." And here in Robertson's issue? He's far more receptive to the idea. Simply having others accuse Superman of grief-stricken delusions doesn't meant that the stories are the same...it's how they or Superman come across in the scene. Dick-Bats came across as the conflict. Bruce-Bats comes across as the resolution.

Dick wasn't the antagonist, he's someone that Superman is supposed to be close to and yet because Superman was out of it, he completely brushed him off the way he did with Lois. Superman was still in denial about his grief.

Now that time has passed within the story, he has had time to think about what has gone on, and things have improved such as the return of his best friend, we now have a more receptive Superman. It would be stupid for a story to have the exact same conversation and have Superman react the exact same way SEVEN ISSUES LATER. It's a little thing called plot progression.

 

[Mystirious]

And now Batman's like "Sooo Dick thought you were crazy or something when you were talking your gibberish at him and was afraid you might go further apes**t. Just thought you should know." [/barely-noticeable exaggeration]

:funnny:

Dick probably thought Superman had gone nuts again

And who could blame him for thinking that

 

[BrianWilly]

I mean, if virtually everyone is reading a story differently than how an author intended it to be read, then maaaaaaybe the problem isn't the readers.

I mean x2, even if you shrug off the recent Batman scene, how the heck do you explain Flash doing a complete 180 on what he said at the very start of this run? (...pun...not intended...?) You're saying JMS intended his "everything is a blur" spiel to be eventually revealed as a joke that Superman didn't get?

 

[hippie_hunter]

But "readers" are complaining about things that aren't even there.

Personally I have found Grounded ever since Roberson took over to be a complete and utter mess.

 

[BrianWilly]

What's not in there? Superman acting like a pretentious *****e? Making speeches that make no sense? 'Cause that's all in there. The only thing really up for debate is how JMS meant for that to come across. You think that the scene of the guy shouting back at Superman, "What's that supposed to mean?" is supposed to show how confused and incoherent Superman has become due to his grief. Others think it's supposed to be Superman having a face-value unironic grandiose speech about how people should really be acting and that the listener was simply too dense and low-brow to understand his great wisdom.

I don't really care so much about Robertson's stuff. Mostly I care about him writing over JMS's sheninigans.

 

[hippie_hunter]

JMS doing the whole thing solo was far superior than the stuff that came out when Roberson took over the scripting.

 

[Superman_]

The senses of confusion come from scenes like in Superman #701 where Superman essentially started on his walk without telling Lois and even going as far as brushing her off after she questioned him why he was doing this and when the guy in Philadelphia questioned him why he was doing this and Superman went into a pretentious tangent about Thoreau and left with the guy screaming and demanding just what the hell he was talking about. Or in Superman #703 where Superman completely brushed off Dick's valid concerns. Or in Superman #705 where Superman didn't defend himself against people's accusations that he brings trouble and Superman admitted to Lois that he's not sure that they're wrong.

Those scenes specifically show that Superman has either been out of it and has a sense of confusion about himself.

Like I said, I honestly think that a lot of people are reading a completely different story than what JMS has produced. Seeds had been planted about Superman being in an emotional breakdown, but before they could sprout, JMS left the book after writing three issues out of a twelve issue story.

Actually your right about this one. The seeds for grounded really can be traced all the way back to New Krypton where other heroes told Superman about how he needed to deal with the things happening to him starting with the death of his father but he never did so. Once again IMO the first two issues of Grounded started off fine but then it started to slow down with me after that because even though I got where Dick was coming from the writing didn't portray that or the way they made him come off didn't to much. That's the only real problem I had with this arc. Because in all reality the concept of the story was good but with the delays, how the story came across and a few other stuff it just seems like something is missing. As I said when the arc started it had that feel of All-Star Superman but it just seems to me to have lost that feel as it went on.

 

[Mystirious]

Glad you liked it hippie hunter but I thought JMS on Superman and Wonder Woman was awful

And the dialouge he gave Superman seemed hillariously bad and utterly nonsensical and confuzzling to me

 

[Superman_]

JMS doing the whole thing solo was far superior than the stuff that came out when Roberson took over the scripting.

That part I have to agree with as well if this was the reason why Superman went for his walk than that is something he needed to figure out himself with the help of Lois and maybe Batman since that is his best friend. But the other heroes IMO and the new Superman Squad I really saw no use for. However I would have loved if someone had told him what Lex has been up to while he has been away so that we can at least see that the books are interconnected.

 

[hippie_hunter]

I think that they're having Grounded not be connected with other books because originally, JMS wanted it to stand on its own without being forced to crossover into other storylines and I think that DC just wants to move on from this debacle.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Glad you liked it hippie hunter but I thought JMS on Superman and Wonder Woman was awful

How can you hate JMS' Wonder Woman yet like it when Hester came on board? All Hester did was script the plots that JMS put out, those things that Hester did that you said you liked were JMS' ideas. It's a reason why he wants to do another arc of Wonder Woman before Odyssey so that he can put out his own ideas.

 

[Superman_]

I think that they're having Grounded not be connected with other books because originally, JMS wanted it to stand on its own without being forced to crossover into other storylines and I think that DC just wants to move on from this debacle.

Understood but at the same time as well Superman should have been updated by Lois or someone with what Lex has been up to or at least like how they did with that whole Perry White story have Superman just floating outside of Lex's window one time telling him he'll be keeping an eye on him or something like that to let you know Superman is watching or aware of what he's doing.

As far as DC wanting to move on I don't blame them. Grounded is not a bad concept but is a story that should have been a 6 to 8 issue story arc; not 12. Had it been 6 issues I think people would have been more open to it because it would not have dragged the story out but kept it at a good pace.

 

[Superman_]

How can you hate JMS' Wonder Woman yet like it when Hester came on board? All Hester did was script the plots that JMS put out, those things that Hester did that you said you liked were JMS' ideas. It's a reason why he wants to do another arc of Wonder Woman before Odyssey so that he can put out his own ideas.

Personally I like JMS Wonder Woman and kind of wished she would stay around.