The 'race' issue...

[DorkyFresh]

agh...i just tried to post, but it messed up on me so i'll make this short.

i was never really into Nick Fury, but there WERE black people who fought in WW2 and those reasons are why i'm okay with them depicting the latest version of Nick on screen. i've stated before that i fully expected them to cast a white actor for Goku if they ever made a DB movie, but i simply PREFER that they got an Asian or mixed actor. i would have been perfectly fine with a white actor as Goku as long as they got a qualified actor...which unfortunately, i don't think they did.

as for Goku having Asian behavior...he DOES eat with chopsticks and holds his bowls and plates up to his face like many Asians do. i don't see many Westerners scooping food into their mouths the way many Asians do when they use chopsticks and bowls. i've said in previous posts that i feel whenever something is out of place, it feels less authentic/genuine and more artificial and if they went with a more faithful adaptation where Goku wore Asian inspired clothes the whole time then it would feel weird seeing a white guy in the role (ala Forbidden Kingdom). that's why, as much as i like Jake Gyllenhaal, i feel he was miscast in Prince of Persia. he's a white guy dressing and acting like a middle easterner. great for the box office, but not so good for the sake of the film's authenticity. it would be like getting a Latino for the role of Aragorn in Lord of the Rings, when Aragorn is a character inspired, for the most part, by European ideas and customs.

but then again....that's just the way i feel, and you don't necessarily have to buy into it.

 

[DorkyFresh]

And Malcom X will be played by Brad Pitt t:

Strangely enough in the manga etc grandpa Gohan gives him an Asian name...because he grew up an Asian enviroment??

So when THIS Goku goes to high school and the kids ask him "How is it that a white dude that has grown up in a Western environment has an Asian name?".

"Erm, Erm, Erm...I'll leave that for Fox to explain".

haha....brilliant post

 

[DorkyFresh]

Now you're switching from wanting him to have asian genetics to having asian characteristics instead? Jesus...

i never said that and you don't need to get frustrated over it.

Those two movies are probably cast poorly and won't be well received anyway... Though I do know the man himself was perfectly fine with being cast as a different ethnicity for 21 since it wasn't a documentary...

good for him, but it's not fine for me. it's an indication that this country does not always provide equal opportunity and likes to take foreign ideas and cater them towards mainstream America. that's not necessarily a bad thing but i don't condone it.

Neither is dragonball and it's obvious they're casting goku based on looks since there's a special novelty to having a living breathing goku who is an extremely difficult role to cast because most people don't have chatwin's facial structure. Does hollywood shaft certain races? Yes, absolutely, but come on man, it's clear as crystal this isn't one of those cases.

considering that Fox is a very conservative company, i'm inclined to believe the opposite.

 

[kaypain]

wow you what Dorky, you are very intelligent fellow, I agree with some of the things you say, but I just really think this debate is pointless now...

 

[The Kid]

i never said that and you don't need to get frustrated over it.



good for him, but it's not fine for me. it's an indication that this country does not always provide equal opportunity and likes to take foreign ideas and cater them towards mainstream America. that's not necessarily a bad thing but i don't condone it.


considering that Fox is a very conservative company, i'm inclined to believe the opposite.

More annoyed than frustrated. The overwhelming negativity towards this movie irks me sometimes, and accusations of frakkin racism don't help. It's bad enough that people hate dragonball with a passion now, but taking it to that level is just bordering on insanity. And it's driving me crazy... I better be careful who I'm dealing with on this thing, that's for sure.

Damn right this country's full of the sickest, most evil, hateful disgusting people in power who are trying to do hideous things to minorities for no good reason... but this just isn't one of them nor has anything to do with it I'm certain. We'll just agree to disagree.

 

[mr. peasant]

well, any magazine or website that wants to be respected isn't going to post gossip about what Japan thinks of Goku's race. couple that with the fact that this movie isn't very popular and there's your reason why you haven't run into any articles that talk about Japanese backlash against Goku being Caucasian. the race of the actor who plays Goku is still a superficial thing in many people's minds and most magazines and websites won't risk the humiliation of bringing up such a sensitive subject as race. this movie is so unpopular and unpromising that it's not even worth it.

But on the flip side, when the G.I. Joe movie was first announced and the producers commented on their plan to reinvent the Joe team to be international (as opposed to being exclusively American) and would thus change the nationalities of some of the core characters, there was a massive number of articles online on websites like IESB, etc. Hence, racial sensitivity alone is not a sufficient deterrent.

i see where you're coming from and i totally agree that, pre-internet, you had to draw influence from your surroundings and experiences if you were to create your own fantasy. however, Euro-based fantasies like Lord of the Rings and Chronicles of Narnia have white actors who play characters who aren't necessarily labeled 'caucasian' in those fantasies, so what's the problem with getting an Asian actor to play Goku?

There's no problem at all. All I'm saying is that I don't feel it's an absolute necessity, just as how I don't think all Euro-based fantasy (i.e. LotR, D&D) movies need Caucasian actors for their characters. Blacks, Hispanics, Asians, Little Green Men, etc. are all welcome.

East vs. West is based on the divides of Europe & Asia, as they apply to cultural reference. West of that divide is European/American cultures. East of that divide is Indian/Asian cultures.
And just because you're traveling West into Russia, doesn't mean you're NOT still traveling West. And being as how the world is divided into hemispheres...
Even Asians refer to the Americas as The West.

True, but it's still nonetheless inaccurate. It ought to be referred to as an Euro-American culture vs. Asian culture. Europe and the Americas are on the western side of the world only because someone decided to draw the map that way. Had they drawn it with China at its center from the beginning, the Americas would then be referred to as the East, no?

 

[Dark Jaguar]

True, but it's still nonetheless inaccurate. It ought to be referred to as an Euro-American culture vs. Asian culture. Europe and the Americas are on the western side of the world only because someone decided to draw the map that way. Had they drawn it with China at its center from the beginning, the Americas would then be referred to as the East, no?

(now that i've had some sleep after a long halloween night of partying)
No. It wouldn't. These terms come from the original journies into Asia. The White Man (Europeans) came from The West, and they traveled East into Asia. And that's dating back to centuries's prior to the Roman Empire. So this isn't just a modern Euro-American conspiracy. It's just that the term "Western Cultures" stems over to Americans because of where we come from as a nation - The Europeans. And they were the first ones to really travel to the Americas... which was a Western course.

So that map, that you're so pointedly blaming, was actually created a few thousand years ago, and was done fairly, according to the age: There was Europe and there was Asia. And the world was flat, and if you sailed too far, you'd fall off the edge. So the middle is that line that divides Europe from Russia, the Middle East & Asia.
Which would've been about the middle of the known world, then.

And I say "Indian & Asian" because Iraq, Iran, Syria, Israel and the other smaller Middle Eastern countries are not European, and are not Asian. So it's less a country specific than a region specific designation. Maybe it might've been more accurate to say "Middle Eastern & Asian cultures", but I felt using the term "Middle Eastern" would be a bit redundant in my argument. But it probably would've worked to help clarify what i meant, however Eur-Asia is such a massive thing that to break it all down into its proper, respective titles would make that list extremely long-winded... kinda like this paragraph.

(And just so no one thinks i forgot: indonesia!)

 

[Dark Jaguar]

And Malcom X will be played by Brad Pitt t:

Strangely enough in the manga etc grandpa Gohan gives him an Asian name...because he grew up an Asian enviroment??

So when THIS Goku goes to high school and the kids ask him "How is it that a white dude that has grown up in a Western environment has an Asian name?".

"Erm, Erm, Erm...I'll leave that for Fox to explain".

here's the proper response: "Because I was raised here."

Anyone who can't accept that response is.. well i'm not going there.

Look, I live in one of the most diverse cities in the USA: Seattle. We have a very prominent Asian population, for those that've never experienced the wonder that is the Pac-N.W.

I know Asians of pure Asian heritage that were born here, in the USA, that have "white names". I've met a couple white guys with "asian names".
Hell, in the NFL there are black guys with irish names.

I had a friend, who just had a baby. She let her two oldest boys pick the girl's name... "Kilala" (the kids are big into Inuyasha). And that baby girl is 3/4 native american.

What is in a name? Would a rose by any other name smell less lovely?

 

[javphonic]

Seriously... you had to learn it from Sarah Palin first?

no, just sayin if you didn't know before you must definetly know by now, with the whole big deal they made about her statement

 

[javphonic]

plus about the Nick Fury being depicted as African American, I don't think most people view it as a big deal because Fury isn't usually a main character, whereas Goku has global fame as the star of DB,

It'd be wierd to see a black Wolverine or even Asian, but less controversial if Nick Fury or King Pin is depicted as African American in certain medias


Plus it doesn't matter if he has an Asian name, that doesn't mean he's Asian, I know an African American with the first name Shen Li


This thread's getting heated, people are really unloading, IMO I don't think it's about Racism, just greed, producers cast who they think thier target audience would be more drawn to come see... and as we all know, they can be mistaken

 

[mr. peasant]

(now that i've had some sleep after a long halloween night of partying)
No. It wouldn't. These terms come from the original journies into Asia. The White Man (Europeans) came from The West, and they traveled East into Asia. And that's dating back to centuries's prior to the Roman Empire. So this isn't just a modern Euro-American conspiracy. It's just that the term "Western Cultures" stems over to Americans because of where we come from as a nation - The Europeans. And they were the first ones to really travel to the Americas... which was a Western course.

Surely, you can see the weakness there? It was based on the direction they were found and as such, had the Americas been found by the Japanese by traveling eastward, the Americas would've been known part of the East? I'm not saying that this is a conspiracy, just that it was a somewhat inaccurate use of terminology given what we now know about the shape of the world. I'm not saying it needs to change, especially since now that term 'West' with a capital 'W' has now evolved to refer to the predominant cultures often found in Euro-American nations.

And regarding the race issue, I don't think there's any one right answer as to what race Goku looks like, since it's not explicitly stated nor decipherable based on Toriyama's stylized drawing (as is the case with all fantasy settings, if the artwork is very stylized). It all boils down to our interpretation. And considering there are some fans who think Goku looks White while others think he looks Asian, it goes to show that either way is still acceptable as it could be argued that the filmmakers interpreted it as such.

 

[Antrax255]

Surely, you can see the weakness there? It was based on the direction they were found and as such, had the Americas been found by the Japanese by traveling eastward, the Americas would've been known part of the East? I'm not saying that this is a conspiracy, just that it was a somewhat inaccurate use of terminology given what we now know about the shape of the world. I'm not saying it needs to change, especially since now that term 'West' with a capital 'W' has now evolved to refer to the predominant cultures often found in Euro-American nations.

And regarding the race issue, I don't think there's any one right answer as to what race Goku looks like, since it's not explicitly stated nor decipherable based on Toriyama's stylized drawing (as is the case with all fantasy settings, if the artwork is very stylized). It all boils down to our interpretation. And considering there are some fans who think Goku looks White while others think he looks Asian, it goes to show that either way is still acceptable as it could be argued that the filmmakers interpreted it as such.

No they didnt... like the movie 21 the main character was Asian the author of the book who made it was Asian but yet in the movie the only Asian has a role smaller than a sidekick.

 

[Dark Jaguar]

plus about the Nick Fury being depicted as African American, I don't think most people view it as a big deal because Fury isn't usually a main character, whereas Goku has global fame as the star of DB,

It'd be wierd to see a black Wolverine or even Asian, but less controversial if Nick Fury or King Pin is depicted as African American in certain medias


Plus it doesn't matter if he has an Asian name, that doesn't mean he's Asian, I know an African American with the first name Shen Li


This thread's getting heated, people are really unloading, IMO I don't think it's about Racism, just greed, producers cast who they think thier target audience would be more drawn to come see... and as we all know, they can be mistaken

I think Nick Fury is far more prevelant of a character than you might feel he is.

BUT YES, movie makers will cast according to the looks that will draw a bigger audience.
And they have to be able to appeal to the people who won't vote for Obama.

 

[Dark Jaguar]

Surely, you can see the weakness there? It was based on the direction they were found and as such, had the Americas been found by the Japanese by traveling eastward, the Americas would've been known part of the East? I'm not saying that this is a conspiracy, just that it was a somewhat inaccurate use of terminology given what we now know about the shape of the world. I'm not saying it needs to change, especially since now that term 'West' with a capital 'W' has now evolved to refer to the predominant cultures often found in Euro-American nations.

It could've been known as part of the "East", if Asians had colonized the Americas first. But they didn't. That doesn't change the fact that even us AMERICANS refer to us as a part of "The Western World"... shamelessly, even.
But this doesn't negate my earlier point that these terms come from Old World science, before the founding of the Americas. When Asia was to the EAST, and Europe was to the WEST.
If you don't like the use of these terms, how about we just ditch all the PC pretenses, and refer to it as it is: "Yellow Culture" and "Yellow People"... since it's ok to say "White culture" and "White People" (and the line from Zack and Miri make a Porno come to mind: "Can I order a cup of coffee? Black?" "Can't you see I'm talking to someone? White!")
however, that's not going to happen. And so we remain polite, and politically correct, and shall thus continue using terms such as "Eastern" and "Western" Civilizations.
Now how that relates to Bulma being from "West City", and whether or not she's white or yellow is irrelevant. That's up to Toriyama. Did he call it "West City" because it's in the Western hemisphere of his DB world? Or because people from there are white?

And regarding the race issue, I don't think there's any one right answer as to what race Goku looks like, since it's not explicitly stated nor decipherable based on Toriyama's stylized drawing (as is the case with all fantasy settings, if the artwork is very stylized). It all boils down to our interpretation. And considering there are some fans who think Goku looks White while others think he looks Asian, it goes to show that either way is still acceptable as it could be argued that the filmmakers interpreted it as such.

As has been allegedly reported, Toriyama might've implied that Goku is very ambigious, racially. So why not have him played by Vin Diesel? Who's concidered to be Racially Ambigious.
And then we can have Jessica Alba play Bulma.
I think this couldn't be any worse than what they've already got.

 

[mr. peasant]

No they didnt... like the movie 21 the main character was Asian the author of the book who made it was Asian but yet in the movie the only Asian has a role smaller than a sidekick.

What does 21 have to do with Dragon Ball? They don't share producers, directors or casting directors.

 

[Antrax255]

What does 21 have to do with Dragon Ball? They don't share producers, directors or casting directors.

The main character in 21 in real life is Asian many of feel that Goku should have been Asian this is an example of how Hollywood whitewash.

 

[BestGirl]

The main character in 21 in real life is Asian many of feel that Goku should have been Asian this is an example of how Hollywood whitewash.

Yeah, but the guy who inspired the movie 21 is a real life person. There really can't be a legitimate "interpretation" of his character that differs markedly from who he really was. He was Asian but Hollywood decided to make him white. That's totally wrong: a complete "whitewash", as you said. Goku, on the other hand, is a fictional character whose race is never truly specified that I know of. He's an alien, so I guess you could technically make him white is you wanted to.

Personally, if I had been in charge of casting Dragonball, I'd have assembled a cast of Eurasians. Anime characters often have a combination of European (round eyes) and Asian features (straight black hair), much like people of mixed European and Asian ancestry do. Besides, there really aren't enough actors out there in Hollywood of Asian ancestry. Maybe Dragonball could've given some half-Asian actor his opportunity to get into the industry. Oh well. The movie has already been made, so I guess there's no point in me dwelling on what could've been now.

 

[Antrax255]

Yeah, but the guy who inspired the movie 21 is a real life person. There really can't be a legitimate "interpretation" of his character that differs markedly from who he really was. He was Asian but Hollywood decided to make him white. That's totally wrong: a complete "whitewash", as you said. Goku, on the other hand, is a fictional character whose race is never truly specified that I know of. He's an alien, so I guess you could technically make him white is you wanted to.

Personally, if I had been in charge of casting Dragonball, I'd have assembled a cast of Eurasians. Anime characters often have a combination of European (round eyes) and Asian features (straight black hair), much like people of mixed European and Asian ancestry do. Besides, there really aren't enough actors out there in Hollywood of Asian ancestry. Maybe Dragonball could've given some half-Asian actor his opportunity to get into the industry. Oh well. The movie has already been made, so I guess there's no point in me dwelling on what could've been now.

Never thought of that would have not complained if that had happen.

 

[Dark Jaguar]

Yeah, but the guy who inspired the movie 21 is a real life person. There really can't be a legitimate "interpretation" of his character that differs markedly from who he really was. He was Asian but Hollywood decided to make him white. That's totally wrong: a complete "whitewash", as you said. Goku, on the other hand, is a fictional character whose race is never truly specified that I know of. He's an alien, so I guess you could technically make him white is you wanted to.

Personally, if I had been in charge of casting Dragonball, I'd have assembled a cast of Eurasians. Anime characters often have a combination of European (round eyes) and Asian features (straight black hair), much like people of mixed European and Asian ancestry do. Besides, there really aren't enough actors out there in Hollywood of Asian ancestry. Maybe Dragonball could've given some half-Asian actor his opportunity to get into the industry. Oh well. The movie has already been made, so I guess there's no point in me dwelling on what could've been now.

On the first issue of the 21 "whitewash". The guy that inspired the movie, 21, requested and OK'd them using an actor of a different ethnicity. I think this fact is all too readily over-looked.

Otherwise: Well said! Persons of mixed-asian decent probably would've nix'd this debate. But, like you said... the movie is already made. Who knows, if it pulls enough money, but Chatwin sucks... maybe they'll recast a bit better for a sequel...(yeah, right.)

 

[DorkyFresh]

wow you what Dorky, you are very intelligent fellow, I agree with some of the things you say, but I just really think this debate is pointless now...

thanx, kaypain! glad we can agree on some things. i don't agree that the debate is pointless though. i think it's a healthy discussion that brings up an otherwise touchy subject and makes it okay to talk about race....as opposed to just ignoring it and keeping the racial discussion suppressed.

Yeah, but the guy who inspired the movie 21 is a real life person. There really can't be a legitimate "interpretation" of his character that differs markedly from who he really was. He was Asian but Hollywood decided to make him white. That's totally wrong: a complete "whitewash", as you said. Goku, on the other hand, is a fictional character whose race is never truly specified that I know of. He's an alien, so I guess you could technically make him white is you wanted to.

Personally, if I had been in charge of casting Dragonball, I'd have assembled a cast of Eurasians. Anime characters often have a combination of European (round eyes) and Asian features (straight black hair), much like people of mixed European and Asian ancestry do. Besides, there really aren't enough actors out there in Hollywood of Asian ancestry. Maybe Dragonball could've given some half-Asian actor his opportunity to get into the industry. Oh well. The movie has already been made, so I guess there's no point in me dwelling on what could've been now.

fantastic first post. you're very much welcomed to SHH!

 

[Alchemyst]

thanx, kaypain! glad we can agree on some things. i don't agree that the debate is pointless though. i think it's a healthy discussion that brings up an otherwise touchy subject and makes it okay to talk about race....as opposed to just ignoring it and keeping the racial discussion suppressed.



fantastic first post. you're very much welcomed to SHH!

Goku's race is always gonna be a big topic because the decision is split right down the middle. With all the Asian influences the show carried, you would assume Goku would have an asian appearance. But this is an issue more or less on Hollywood's part, at times i think they feel as though a asian in a title role wont carry a film.

 

[SatEL]

Goku's race is always gonna be a big topic because the decision is split right down the middle. With all the Asian influences the show carried, you would assume Goku would have an asian appearance. But this is an issue more or less on Hollywood's part, at times i think they feel as though a asian in a title role wont carry a film.

What annoys me the most is the fact they wont take on an asian lead but they go after asian shows and asian themed titles.

 

[Alchemyst]

What annoys me the most is the fact they wont take on an asian lead but they go after asian shows and asian themed titles.

Very true indeed

 

[Dark Jaguar]

Goku's race is always gonna be a big topic because the decision is split right down the middle. With all the Asian influences the show carried, you would assume Goku would have an asian appearance. But this is an issue more or less on Hollywood's part, at times i think they feel as though a asian in a title role wont carry a film.

Unless its Jet Li or Jackie Chan.

There have been asian films that've done well in the US market. Not lately, because it's still a relatively new idea. There are a few actors who've made wonderful careers in Hollywood. But unfortunately, as a mass audience, Americans would rather see those kung fu flicks (ie: Enter the Dragon), than art house epics (ie: Memiors of a Geisha)... Jet Li's "Fearless" is an example of what Americans would respond well to, as far as Asian Setting and Leads.

We're still warming up to a culture that has... well, when you look at it in historical rhetrospect... not put their best foot forward until this past 20 years.
remember, Asian cultures haven't been competitive in the movie market until recently. And so thus the average american isn't quite used to the asian film style... We, the individuals on these boards, have broadened our scopes, and tend to be exposed to more of the movie world than the "non-posters"...

HOWEVER, I think that it's just as narrowminded to presume that JUST BECAUSE he was raised in an Asian enviroment, that he's GOING TO LOOK Asian.

If I was to grow up in Japan, I might not speak English. I probably wouldn't know much about real American culture. But I WOULD NOT LOOK ASIAN. No matter how much weed I smoked, and no matter how 'chink-eyed' I got... I would not look Asian.

 

[DorkyFresh]

HOWEVER, I think that it's just as narrowminded to presume that JUST BECAUSE he was raised in an Asian enviroment, that he's GOING TO LOOK Asian.

i don't think anyone here is saying that. i, personally, have always said that it's a conglomerate of aspects that lead me to assume that Goku was supposed to look like an Asian.....not just one thing.



edit: in the spirit of this thread...CONGRATS BARACK OBAMA!!!