The 'race' issue...

[Alchemyst]

Unless its Jet Li or Jackie Chan.

There have been asian films that've done well in the US market. Not lately, because it's still a relatively new idea. There are a few actors who've made wonderful careers in Hollywood. But unfortunately, as a mass audience, Americans would rather see those kung fu flicks (ie: Enter the Dragon), than art house epics (ie: Memiors of a Geisha)... Jet Li's "Fearless" is an example of what Americans would respond well to, as far as Asian Setting and Leads.

We're still warming up to a culture that has... well, when you look at it in historical rhetrospect... not put their best foot forward until this past 20 years.
remember, Asian cultures haven't been competitive in the movie market until recently. And so thus the average american isn't quite used to the asian film style... We, the individuals on these boards, have broadened our scopes, and tend to be exposed to more of the movie world than the "non-posters"...

HOWEVER, I think that it's just as narrowminded to presume that JUST BECAUSE he was raised in an Asian enviroment, that he's GOING TO LOOK Asian.

If I was to grow up in Japan, I might not speak English. I probably wouldn't know much about real American culture. But I WOULD NOT LOOK ASIAN. No matter how much weed I smoked, and no matter how 'chink-eyed' I got... I would not look Asian.

With Jet Li and Jackie Chan, alot of their earlier films were released in the US. And on top of that, they made their big break in the U.S. at a time when there wasn't any other martial arts film stars, Van Damme went downhill along with Seagal. Jackie Chan's more recent films are IMO watered down and no where near as Epic as his earlier films, I never really was a big Jet Li fan, his movies are ok, but I dunno, jus never really became a fan

 

[Dark Jaguar]

i don't think anyone here is saying that. i, personally, have always said that it's a conglomerate of aspects that lead me to assume that Goku was supposed to look like an Asian.....not just one thing.



edit: in the spirit of this thread...CONGRATS BARACK OBAMA!!!

ok, then let me add: Even in light of the story being Asian culturally inspired, being created by an Asian, and originally sold in an Asian market... just because of these things would not strictly limit the character to looking asian.

And yes, Congratulations to Presidential-Elect, Barack Obama!!

 

[Dark Jaguar]

With Jet Li and Jackie Chan, alot of their earlier films were released in the US. And on top of that, they made their big break in the U.S. at a time when there wasn't any other martial arts film stars, Van Damme went downhill along with Seagal. Jackie Chan's more recent films are IMO watered down and no where near as Epic as his earlier films, I never really was a big Jet Li fan, his movies are ok, but I dunno, jus never really became a fan

True, Jackie Chan's films are watered down, now. But that's mostly because in Hollywood, they won't insure him if he does all the crazy-ass stunts he used to do.

But, between the two, Jet Li has always done far more epic movies. Movies that take themselves more seriously than Chan's did.

However... i think in light of the new political climate in America.. we stand a chance of seeing an increase in leads being given to other ethnicities...

but i still don't think it should matter if Goku/Bulma are white or not.

 

[DorkyFresh]

ok, then let me add: Even in light of the story being Asian culturally inspired, being created by an Asian, and originally sold in an Asian market... just because of these things would not strictly limit the character to looking asian.

well let me repeat, no one's saying that. those reasons legitimize the casting of an Asian in the role, but that does not mean those reasons need to dictate the actor who plays Goku.

 

[SatEL]

True, Jackie Chan's films are watered down, now. But that's mostly because in Hollywood, they won't insure him if he does all the crazy-ass stunts he used to do.

But, between the two, Jet Li has always done far more epic movies. Movies that take themselves more seriously than Chan's did.

However... i think in light of the new political climate in America.. we stand a chance of seeing an increase in leads being given to other ethnicities...

but i still don't think it should matter if Goku/Bulma are white or not.

Why because Barack Obama is going to open the door?. Yes Obama getting elected is a big step blah blah blah but it doesnt automatically make things square. Perhaps things might change in the future but its not going to happe instantly or even 10yrs from now.

 

[mr. peasant]

We're still warming up to a culture that has... well, when you look at it in historical rhetrospect... not put their best foot forward until this past 20 years.
remember, Asian cultures haven't been competitive in the movie market until recently. And so thus the average american isn't quite used to the asian film style... We, the individuals on these boards, have broadened our scopes, and tend to be exposed to more of the movie world than the "non-posters"...

I don't think the fault of that lies solely in Asian cultures. As a matter of fact, Asians have been in the U.S. for a long time. However, Westerners in the past were hardly receptive of them, mostly because of the vast differences in cultures between the two societies.

 

[Dark Jaguar]

Why because Barack Obama is going to open the door?. Yes Obama getting elected is a big step blah blah blah but it doesnt automatically make things square. Perhaps things might change in the future but its not going to happe instantly or even 10yrs from now.

No. Because WE, The People of the United States, are ready to stop looking at skin color. And it's WE THE PEOPLE who have said something. And that statement will echo in our entertainment.
And no, it won't be over night. but it won't take 10 years, so long as the black man in the oval office doesn't **** up.

I don't think the fault of that lies solely in Asian cultures. As a matter of fact, Asians have been in the U.S. for a long time. However, Westerners in the past were hardly receptive of them, mostly because of the vast differences in cultures between the two societies.

No, really, it's just the asian culture's xenophobic nature that's made it difficult. Westerners have been trading with Asia for centuries.
Guns for spices & silks. Money for fireworks. Money for American Military knowledge.

Asians wouldn't even share the knowledge of their martial arts until Bruce Lee opened his first dojo here in Seattle.

Americans have always had an interest in Eastern Cultures. It's a shame they didn't feel the same way until the past 20 years.

 

[Mike_D202]

I think the anime was a little stereotypical in a way IMO. Have you seen Mr. PoPo?!

I mean, wtf lol. And Hercule was obviously an American.

 

[kaypain]

that and Oolong's character
which basically gives off the message that Communists are pigs

 

[The Kid]

*Sighs* I dont know maybe your naive, anyway I will try and break it down for you here. There are two types of racism there is the I will shake your hand and be your friend but you cant date my sister because your black racism. And there is the I wont shake your hands and I hate your guts and you cant date my sister because your black racism. Now this is coming from a white guy so I might be wrong having never experienced racism first hand but its what I have seen occur and observed. Obama is in the white house sure but it doesnt stop racism besides his half white so maybe he wasnt the one to trully test Americans.

Ah the brown paper bag test, just white enough to get in. That might be the case. Still a stunning change for America that will inevitably have an effect somewhere.

People will take what they can get, that's for sure. And about dragonball's race issues, completely blown out of proportion, and ridiculous.

 

[BestGirl]

On the first issue of the 21 "whitewash". The guy that inspired the movie, 21, requested and OK'd them using an actor of a different ethnicity. I think this fact is all too readily over-looked.

Otherwise: Well said! Persons of mixed-asian decent probably would've nix'd this debate. But, like you said... the movie is already made. Who knows, if it pulls enough money, but Chatwin sucks... maybe they'll recast a bit better for a sequel...(yeah, right.)

Re 21: I had no idea the lead actor actually requested an actor of a different race to play him. I wonder why? I would probably be okay with someone of a different race portraying me in a movie, but I can't imagine actually asking for it.

 

[BestGirl]

fantastic first post. you're very much welcomed to SHH!

Thanks, glad to be here. You guys aren't too bad yourselves.

 

[DorkyFresh]

Re 21: I had no idea the lead actor actually requested an actor of a different race to play him. I wonder why?

i don't think he REQUESTED an actor of a different race to play him. if an article or video showing that he did could be posted then that would definitely clear some things up, but here is what he said regarding that controversy...

"My race is important to me, and I see their concerns here." "But I'm not sure they understand how little control I had in the movie-making process; I didn't get to cast it."

so while he said that he was okay with them getting a caucasian to play his character, he didn't mention wanting an actor of any particular race to play him. that seems more like stretched truth to me.

 

[The Kid]

You might want to delete that. Mods were cool enough with me when I had my outbursts in the past but something like that might cross the line... just warning ya.

 

[Dark Jaguar]

You might want to delete that. Mods were cool enough with me when I had my outbursts in the past but something like that might cross the line... just warning ya.

thanks for the heads up, and i did. and i might still get in trouble for it, but i'm willing to live with that.

 

[Dark Jaguar]

WTF? Seriously WTF? Your obviously on something, did you even understand what I was trying to state in my post or is your comprehension skills just that poor? How did you deduct from any of my statements that I am racist? Good lord I am not even going to bother with an idiot like you as its just not worth the effort.

Yes, be done with me. because you showed exactly what're you made of.
I state that -we, as a nation, as a people- are ready to "open the door". That Obama isn't the one doing it. It's -US-. And that this decision was shown by our electing him into office.
And I followed it up with the point that this will be reflected sooner than you think in our entertainment industries...

And so instead of focusing on the points of how this would reflect in these industries, you dredge up racism. Something you know -nothing- about. You even admit you know nothing about it.
Only what you've "seen occur and observed"... and so you're gonna "break it down" to ME? I used to get picked on for not being "mexican" enough.
Kid, if it didn't happen to you directly, the only way you could've seen it occur is by participating. Can you comprehend what I'm saying?

The fact that you wanted to bring it up, completely out of context, shows exactly what you think. And the fact that you only state YOUR belief of racism, shows that you're not capable of seeing the third option:
That I can smile at you, shake your hand, and not let you date my sister because I don't think you're man enough.

so thus i say: Shut yer pie hole, and sit down before you hurt yourself.

Mods: Please close this thread, it's gotten out of hand.

 

[DorkyFresh]

Mods: Please close this thread, it's gotten out of hand.

this thread has been fairly civilized and respectable. it isn't until SatEl called you naive that you busted out with that post. i'd suggest BOTH of you either take it to PMs, or drop it and cool off.

mods, we've had 6 and a half pages of intelligent and respectable conversation....please don't close this thread because of a few bad apples.

 

[SatEL]

Yes, be done with me. because you showed exactly what're you made of.
I state that -we, as a nation, as a people- are ready to "open the door". That Obama isn't the one doing it. It's -US-. And that this decision was shown by our electing him into office.
And I followed it up with the point that this will be reflected sooner than you think in our entertainment industries...

And so instead of focusing on the points of how this would reflect in these industries, you dredge up racism. Something you know -nothing- about. You even admit you know nothing about it.
Only what you've "seen occur and observed"... and so you're gonna "break it down" to ME? I used to get picked on for not being "mexican" enough.
Kid, if it didn't happen to you directly, the only way you could've seen it occur is by participating. Can you comprehend what I'm saying?

The fact that you wanted to bring it up, completely out of context, shows exactly what you think. And the fact that you only state YOUR belief of racism, shows that you're not capable of seeing the third option:
That I can smile at you, shake your hand, and not let you date my sister because I don't think you're man enough.

so thus i say: Shut yer pie hole, and sit down before you hurt yourself.

Mods: Please close this thread, it's gotten out of hand.

So the only way I could have seen racism is by participating in it? Ok great logic there. Also the statement I made about shaking your hand and been your friend but you cant date my sister was a metaphor. And it was in relation to people who would interact with people of other ethnicities but thats about as far as they are happy to take it due to that individual been of a diffrent ethnic background. You have obviously not understood any of the things I was trying to state, and perhaps me calling you naive is whats got your blood boiling but I didnt mean to offend it was more to do with what you was spouting. Its obvious that we dont agree so its probably best to agree to disagree.

 

[SatEL]

this thread has been fairly civilized and respectable. it isn't until SatEl called you naive that you busted out with that post. i'd suggest BOTH of you either take it to PMs, or drop it and cool off.

mods, we've had 6 and a half pages of intelligent and respectable conversation....please don't close this thread because of a few bad apples.

I agree the thread shouldnt be closed besides I am leaving anyway this is my last post in this thread.

 

[Dark Jaguar]

well, at this point it's .. pointless.

asians want an asian lead.
whites could go either way.

there's no proof of whether or not Goku should be white.
no proof of whether or not he should be asian.
no one wants to agree that it's a moot point. the movie is cast and being shot, and the only thing that should matter is whether or not Justin Chatwin has the chops to be Goku.
which, would be a discussion that belongs in another thread that already exsists.

so i guess i'm done here, unless Akira Toriyama comes out with some big statement about the "race issue"...

 

[vegeta21]

After seeing the trailer, Goku's race seems to be the least of the problems with this movie.

 

[mr. peasant]

No, really, it's just the asian culture's xenophobic nature that's made it difficult. Westerners have been trading with Asia for centuries.
Guns for spices & silks. Money for fireworks. Money for American Military knowledge.

Asians wouldn't even share the knowledge of their martial arts until Bruce Lee opened his first dojo here in Seattle.

Americans have always had an interest in Eastern Cultures. It's a shame they didn't feel the same way until the past 20 years.

Not really true. Take a quick read of the first paragraph in this Wikipedia article as well as this. Also, take a look at some of the topics covered under this category. Now, I'm not saying that this is still the case (though the attitude still exists in certain groups) or that Asians are completely faultless, but can you really blame them for not really wanting to completely open up?

 

[Dark Jaguar]

Not really true. Take a quick read of the first paragraph in this Wikipedia article as well as this. Also, take a look at some of the topics covered under this category. Now, I'm not saying that this is still the case (though the attitude still exists in certain groups) or that Asians are completely faultless, but can you really blame them for not really wanting to completely open up?

Now, at least we agree, no one is completely faultless.

But those were over 120 years ago. And most of which ended in 1943: 85 years ago.
And while Asian approval ratings didn't get very high with one-sided views of Vietnam & Korea... and sure didn't do much to help Americans appeal to Asians...

We overcame those things. But it's still only been our generation(past 20 years) that has truly trancended these barriers and started to assimilate each other's cultures. So I would say at this point its less about racism, and more about marketing...
IE: the current storm of horror film remakes, converting Japanese horror films over to share with the appeal to the American market...
These kinds of remakes (recasting, and slightly altering the stories to appeal to Americans and sell better in the American market...) have helped bridge the gap between the East and the West...

I know that when I learned about the original japanese films, and actually got to see them, I started watching more and more asian made films...
It hasn't added any great wisdom to how I watch and critique movies, because it doesn't involve anything i didn't already know... but it's given Americans a broader scope of how we should be making our own movies...

So I guess there's one reason to appreciate the casting of a white actor for Goku: It -will- appeal to a wider scope of Americans who don't know about the cartoon or original comics. And -will- help bridge that gap between East and West...

Maybe it's not appealing to us "hardcore fans"... or at least not all of us. I know I'm just happy to see a live action adaptation of the movie.
It probably won't be great. It probably won't be profound. It definitely won't set box office records...
But hopefully it won't be another Street Fighter.




Thank you for the literature, too. It's nice that someone is citing a reliable source. After all the twisted propaganda of the election, and misguided representation of facts and data... it's nice to know SOMEONE can use an encyclopedia. instead of citing sites that are full of heresay and conjecture.

 

[kaypain]

delete

 

[kaypain]

casting Goku white was destined, they knew he would be white the moment they brought the rights, making him white is a brilliant idea, bringing a white-alien into a Asian influenced society given a Asian name shows how different he is from everyone, unfortunately they messed that with the Americanized high school setting