The 'race' issue...

[Dark Jaguar]

supposedly someone asked him, after DBZ took off, what Goku's race is and he said he meant for Goku to be ambiguous. however, i believe he was giving a politically correct answer and he originally intended Goku to have Asian features considering that Dragon Ball is inspired by Asian culture and was meant to attract an Asian audience at first. it wasn't until DBZ's episode that it started to stray from the Asian ideas and gravitate more towards a universal feel.




btw, Akira Toriyama had nothing to do with the way this movie turned out seeing as how Fox booted him as producer, supposedly because he wanted too much creative control....therefor, he could not have decided on Chatwin as Goku.

Akira Toriyama, thank you.

if that's what he said, then that's what he's said. Who're we to put any other interpretation to his words?

Ok, so he got booted as Producer. Did he remain in any kind of consultant position? I would imagine that he maintains some kind of right to the materials, and they would need his approval for the movie, right... And FOX would need some kind of creative consultant, wouldn't they??

So he designed Goku to be racially ambigious. Why're we debating a race issue then?

How about... Is Justin Chatwin Racially Ambigious enough to be Goku?

 

[DorkyFresh]

Akira Toriyama, thank you.

no problem

if that's what he said, then that's what he's said. Who're we to put any other interpretation to his words?

that was SUPPOSEDLY what he said. no one can confirm it...which is why we're left speculating. however, no one can deny that he had to appeal towards his original audience...which happened to be Japanese, and later on, all of Asia. really it wasn't until the series hit the shores of America that he started approaching Dragon Ball from a universal point of view.

Did he remain in any kind of consultant position? I would imagine that he maintains some kind of right to the materials, and they would need his approval for the movie, right... And FOX would need some kind of creative consultant, wouldn't they??

as far as we know...he was totally booted off the project. no one has heard anything about what he has to say about this movie.

So he designed Goku to be racially ambigious. Why're we debating a race issue then?

i didn't say he DESIGNED Goku to be racially ambiguous...i said he SUPPOSEDLY told someone that Goku was meant to be racially ambiguous, but that doesn't necessarily mean that he originally meant for Goku to be that way. Vegeta is one of the most popular villains/anti-heroes in the franchise but that doesn't necessarily mean he was designed that way. in fact, Toriyama originally intended Vegeta to be a throw away character. so what the characters eventually turn into doesn't mean that's the same way that the characters originally were intended.

How about... Is Justin Chatwin Racially Ambigious enough to be Goku?

for me (speaking only for myself).......HELL no. when i see Chatwin, all i see is a suburban white teen. i do not see a celestial alien being.

 

[The Kid]

Chatwin's not a white boy. He's an anime boy. He's a freak of nature born with huge eyes, tiny mouth, big ears, a huge head. That's what race he is. Think about it.

 

[kaypain]

what are you, racial supremacists or something?....

 

[Dark Jaguar]

i had to go back and look at a picture....
and holy crap...

that's a very accurate description... 'specially the "big head" part. t:

 

[kaypain]

Goku is black

proof:

 

[The Kid]

what are you, racial supremacists or something?....

no, though I wish I was... t'would make life easier, heh. I'm just getting aggrivated by the continuing race debate. There's literally no one alive who looks more like Goku than Chatwin. It'd be ridiculous to suggest he should be limited to race alone and not similarity, but the 'haterz' are persistant. So be it. I need to just calm down and not think about it, that's all. It's just so hard not to care!!!

 

[mr. peasant]

My guess would be because she's from the Western Capital

Actually, if I'm not mistaken, she's from West City. Big difference.

that was SUPPOSEDLY what he said. no one can confirm it...which is why we're left speculating. however, no one can deny that he had to appeal towards his original audience...which happened to be Japanese, and later on, all of Asia. really it wasn't until the series hit the shores of America that he started approaching Dragon Ball from a universal point of view.

Well, if he wanted Japanese appeal, one way to do so would've been to Americanize it since there was a big trend/interest in Western culture in the 80s and 90s. In fact, there still is a big interest in Western culture now in Asia as a whole; which is why lots of big budget Hollywood movies as well as American serials tend to get major air time.

Now, I'm not saying that locally-set material isn't popular (though in some Asian countries, they are). What I'm saying is that just because it's made in Japan for a predominantly Japanese audience, doesn't make it a Japanese-themed setting by default or necessity.

Also to point out, if the setting, etc. is indicative that Goku is supposed to look/appear Asian, wouldn't that mean by extension that Bulma is supposed to be Asian as well, considering she's from the same said setting? Personally, I feel this fixation on Goku in particular stems more Western fan expectations of the lead in the Hollywood adaptation of a recognizably Japanese franchise than anything particular of the character's appearance or background. To the best of my knowledge, there hasn't been any report of a major uproar from the 'otaku' subculture in Japan, who are known to be very fanatic and protective of their supported franchises. Certainly, not on the scale of say, the bashing of the G.I. Joe movie.

 

[Dark Jaguar]

no problem


that was SUPPOSEDLY what he said. no one can confirm it...which is why we're left speculating. however, no one can deny that he had to appeal towards his original audience...which happened to be Japanese, and later on, all of Asia. really it wasn't until the series hit the shores of America that he started approaching Dragon Ball from a universal point of view.


as far as we know...he was totally booted off the project. no one has heard anything about what he has to say about this movie.


i didn't say he DESIGNED Goku to be racially ambiguous...i said he SUPPOSEDLY told someone that Goku was meant to be racially ambiguous, but that doesn't necessarily mean that he originally meant for Goku to be that way. Vegeta is one of the most popular villains/anti-heroes in the franchise but that doesn't necessarily mean he was designed that way. in fact, Toriyama originally intended Vegeta to be a throw away character. so what the characters eventually turn into doesn't mean that's the same way that the characters originally were intended.


for me (speaking only for myself).......HELL no. when i see Chatwin, all i see is a suburban white teen. i do not see a celestial alien being.

(as my original post was deleted, here it is again, edited. and this time my staff writers made a better joke.)

And I agree. Chatwin is a white boy.

DAMN THE ORIGINAL BAMFER!! (for deleting my post.)

but is it that big of a deal?

Yes: IF the movie is a huge flop, everyone will blame it on the race issue.
not bad acting. not poor writing. not even cheesey F/X... race.

and

No: IF the movie is a success, everyone will claim that "race" was never an issue. And credit the actors for overcoming racial over-tones and stereotypes.

SO...
My only point that I think we should ALL keep in mind is: We're all one race: The Human Race... And the only important thing is who gets to the finish line first!

 

[Dark Jaguar]

what are you, racial supremacists or something?....

No. I might be blue eyed, and of lighter hair color... but i'm no "supremacist".. and i find that a bit offensive. You're basically calling me a Nazi because i don't see anything wrong with the actor portraying an anime character being white, whether the character is white or asian.

 

[Antrax255]

Umm I just came from the movie theaters and I was asking if they were geetting any Dragonball posters and he sucked his teeth. He asked me If i was a fan and I said yeah he was like "how you could be a fan and watch this movie they made Goku white!"

 

[kaypain]

riiiiigggghhttt.... nice story...

 

[javphonic]

we disagree on a lot of things but i can totally agree with you about Jon Foo. aside from his nose, he's pretty much what i expected Goku to look like and he has the martial arts savvy to back it up. i'm sure his acting is rusty, but considering Chatwin isn't that great of an actor himself...i would've gladly accepted Jon Foo as Goku. he gives off more of a Goku vibe than Chatwin probably will in the movie.

here's a demo reel of his work for anyone who's curious.

nice, seems like a MUCH better choice vs. Chatwin

 

[Alchemyst]

nice, seems like a MUCH better choice vs. Chatwin

As of right now, Jon Foo is currently filming Tekken, he will be playing Jin Kazama

 

[DorkyFresh]

Well, if he wanted Japanese appeal, one way to do so would've been to Americanize it since there was a big trend/interest in Western culture in the 80s and 90s. In fact, there still is a big interest in Western culture now in Asia as a whole; which is why lots of big budget Hollywood movies as well as American serials tend to get major air time.

while i don't necessarily disagree that American culture appeals to Asia, i will say that American culture doesn't dominate the entertainment over there. they're still dishing out martial arts epics every year there and hardly any of them have American influence even if it's a modern day movie.

Now, I'm not saying that locally-set material isn't popular (though in some Asian countries, they are). What I'm saying is that just because it's made in Japan for a predominantly Japanese audience, doesn't make it a Japanese-themed setting by default or necessity.

no, what makes DB an asian-themed manga/anime is the fact that Toriyama was inspired by a Chinese folk tale and used Japanese culture to fill in the rest.

Also to point out, if the setting, etc. is indicative that Goku is supposed to look/appear Asian, wouldn't that mean by extension that Bulma is supposed to be Asian as well, considering she's from the same said setting?

as you said, she's from West City....which is most likely a different part of the world than Grandpa Gohan's home.

Personally, I feel this fixation on Goku in particular stems more Western fan expectations of the lead in the Hollywood adaptation of a recognizably Japanese franchise than anything particular of the character's appearance or background.

well, in my particular case, you feel wrong. my wish for Goku to have Asian features stems from Goku having Asian origins and IN MY OPINION an Asian appearance.

To the best of my knowledge, there hasn't been any report of a major uproar from the 'otaku' subculture in Japan, who are known to be very fanatic and protective of their supported franchises. Certainly, not on the scale of say, the bashing of the G.I. Joe movie.

excluding Uwe Boll's video game movies, this movie is arguably the most hated adaptation since Batman & Robin. even people who don't know anything about Dragon Ball are ripping this movie apart. RyoJin also pointed out that his girl said that many people from Japan don't like the fact that Goku is being played by a white person. as for G.I. Joe......no one is complaining about the characters' races the way Goku's race is constantly being brought up. whenever this movie is brought up, every other 2nd comment is about why a white guy is playing Goku.

 

[Alchemyst]

while i don't necessarily disagree that American culture appeals to Asia, i will say that American culture doesn't dominate the entertainment over there. they're still dishing out martial arts epics every year there and hardly any of them have American influence even if it's a modern day movie.


no, what makes DB an asian-themed manga/anime is the fact that Toriyama was inspired by a Chinese folk tale and used Japanese culture to fill in the rest.


as you said, she's from West City....which is most likely a different part of the world than Grandpa Gohan's home.


well, in my particular case, you feel wrong. my wish for Goku to have Asian features stems from Goku having Asian origins and IN MY OPINION an Asian appearance.



excluding Uwe Boll's video game movies, this movie is arguably the most hated adaptation since Batman & Robin. even people who don't know anything about Dragon Ball are ripping this movie apart. RyoJin also pointed out that his girl said that many people from Japan don't like the fact that Goku is being played by a white person. as for G.I. Joe......no one is complaining about the characters' races the way Goku's race is constantly being brought up. whenever this movie is brought up, every other 2nd comment is about why a white guy is playing Goku.

Essentially, this may be the same reason why Toriyama was booted from the project, it would have to be over creative differences. He wanted it done one way and Fox wanted it done another, since the movie was being made in the U.S. and they already purchased the rights from him, they kicked him off the project. I'm hoping that after this movie comes out, we get either a reboot or a sequel with Toriyama in control.

 

[DorkyFresh]

And I agree. Chatwin is a white boy.

but is it that big of a deal?

not really, but this is the 'race' issue thread....that's why we're discussing race. honestly, and i've said this before, i don't mind Goku being played by a white actor as long as he fit the character. i would just RATHER have seen an Asian as Goku, that's my preference. unfortunately, i got neither of my wishes. he's neither Asian, nor an actor that fits the role.

Yes: IF the movie is a huge flop, everyone will blame it on the race issue.
not bad acting. not poor writing. not even cheesey F/X... race.

i fully disagree what that. if (or when) this movie flops, it will be because Fox didn't treat the property with respect. they exploited it and it's painfully transparent.

No: IF the movie is a success, everyone will claim that "race" was never an issue. And credit the actors for overcoming racial over-tones and stereotypes.

Goku's race will not play a major issue in the success or failure of this movie. if it succeeds, it's because John Woo and Stephen Chow formed a movie that the general audience will dig.....not necessarily because the movie overcame racial division.

 

[Lobo]

I've never seen that Foo guy before, but from a purely visual standpoint he'd have been an awesome Goku, and he's got the skills to back it up already.

 

[Alchemyst]

I've never seen that Foo guy before, but from a purely visual standpoint he'd have been an awesome Goku, and he's got the skills to back it up already.

I saw a set pic from Tekken and he definately looks like Jin

 

[Lobo]

I've not followed anything with the Tekken movie. there an official site for it? I do know that super hottie Candice Hillebrand is Nina though

 

[Alchemyst]

I've not followed anything with the Tekken movie. there an official site for it? I do know that super hottie Candice Hillebrand is Nina though

Not at the moment? I saw the set pic on a website dedicated to fighting games, i'll try and find it again and I'll post it.

 

[Alchemyst]

I've not followed anything with the Tekken movie. there an official site for it? I do know that super hottie Candice Hillebrand is Nina though

Here you go Lobo, John Foo as Jin Kazama and Cung Le as Marshall Law

 

[DorkyFresh]

Essentially, this may be the same reason why Toriyama was booted from the project, it would have to be over creative differences. He wanted it done one way and Fox wanted it done another, since the movie was being made in the U.S. and they already purchased the rights from him, they kicked him off the project. I'm hoping that after this movie comes out, we get either a reboot or a sequel with Toriyama in control.

oh yeah, i'm SURE that the reason Toriyama being booted was because of creative control. Toriyama's style right now is other worldly and even if DB didn't end up being an Asian inspired world, i'm sure Toriyama would've still wanted a very imaginative and culturally diverse world. Fox is a very American/conservative company.........which is why i'm inclined to think that they made it a priority to cast a caucasian as Goku, even if they won't admit it. i bet he's wishing that a company like Sony or Paramount had the rights, instead of Fox.

 

[The Kid]

nice, seems like a MUCH better choice vs. Chatwin

no way, I don't want goku to be like Arnold, more about muscle than acting skill. Acting is an art form and that's why they chose chatwin, because he happens to be a good actor who looks exactly like goku. You wouldn't choose someone to for instance paint or draw for you who looks like an artist, wears the snobby french artist clothes, etc. but has no experience doing it. That'd be really stupid.

 

[DorkyFresh]

no way, I don't want goku to be like Arnold, more about muscle than acting skill. Acting is an art form and that's why they chose chatwin, because he happens to be a good actor who looks exactly like goku. You wouldn't choose someone to for instance paint or draw for you who looks like an artist, wears the snobby french artist clothes, etc. but has no experience doing it. That'd be really stupid.

problem is that, despite a few people thinking that Chatwin is a good actor, he's pretty mundane and dull. also, i don't think he looks EXACTLY like Goku. imo, he looks like a typical anime character more than he looks like Goku.

You wouldn't choose someone to for instance paint or draw for you who looks like an artist, wears the snobby french artist clothes, etc. but has no experience doing it. That'd be really stupid.

to be fair...you pretty much described Justin Chatwin. a person who many people think looks like Goku, but didn't have any martial arts experience. i totally agree with the sentence i just quoted (not necessarily with the rest of your post), which is why i think Jon Foo is more qualified. he's an ACTUAL martial artist while Chatwin is just an actor who is going to ACT like a martial artist.