The Dark Knight The Realism Debate thread

[GoogleMe94]

why is everyone saying that nolan shouldnt give us a "batman returns" batman? what was wrong with Returns?if anything, i dont want another "nolan-zied" batman. after seeing begins, it was just too long, too much talking and not enough action. Returns still had that cool batman look to it, and come on batman was badass in that one! are you sayin you dont want batman to be badass? i wouldnt imagine nolan haveing a gothic design because, well, nolan's visual style is not gothic at all. thats burtons look. nolans is more realistic, obviously. but that could either make or break his batman films. so far, i remain unimpressed with anything in nolans gotham. is it just me, or does his gotham look alot more like Metropolis? when i watched superman returns, i actually thought metropolis looked alot more dirty and old then nolans gotham. i always thought metropolis was the shiny, undustrial, modern city and that gotham was the old fashioned, art deco gothic gargoyle type city.

i also hope nolan has some, um, "out there" villians in the future, if he does do more batmans. i WOULD like to see clayface, or killer croc, or mad hatter.

 

[TheLongestDay]

didnt batman kill that big bald guy in Returns?

 

[The Dark Guybrush]

GoogleMe94- how old are you?

 

[Venom 1988]

didnt batman kill that big bald guy in Returns?

Yea he put a grenade in his pants i believe, its been awhile ive seen it.

 

[TheLongestDay]

doesnt that sorta poopoo on everything Batman stands for?

 

[Cyrusbales]

doesnt that sorta poopoo on everything Batman stands for?

Depends on which version of batman you like, personally I love the original batman who was more badass and knew that some criminals had given away their right to live.

 

[terry78]

The thing on the train with Al-Ghul is still debatable.

"I don't have to save you", still comes back to, technically I'm killing you. If I see a villain about to be killed and dont' do ****, that's still me letting him die.

 

[TheLongestDay]

The thing on the train with Al-Ghul is still debatable.

"I don't have to save you", still comes back to, technically I'm killing you. If I see a villain about to be killed and dont' do ****, that's still me letting him die.

Ah but you see,hed already saved him once and look what happend! lol

 

[The Dark Guybrush]

exactly. ra's put himself in the situation, and not only tried to kill bruce, but the population of gotham itself!

granted, ra's DID pull bruce out of the frozen lake, but this was when they were on good terms with each other.

though ra's kinda cut him a break when the ceiling collapsed on his head. he could've easily ended bruce's life at that point.

ra's also got him out of that stinky prison. and kinda gave him his reason to live. etc.

 

[TheLongestDay]

exactly. ra's put himself in the situation, and not only tried to kill bruce, but the population of gotham itself!

granted, ra's DID pull bruce out of the frozen lake, but this was when they were on good terms with each other.

though ra's kinda cut him a break when the ceiling collapsed on his head. he could've easily ended bruce's life at that point.

ra's also got him out of that stinky prison. and kinda gave him his reason to live. etc.

yeh only cuz he wanted to use him as a tool for his schemes,and he thought he was being a smartass when he left Bruce lying there with a flaming beam on him...but when he walked out he said to one of his men "make sure no one leaves"

 

[The Dark Guybrush]

but you'd think a guy who preaches the covering of all bases ("always mind your surroundings") would take zero chances, especially with an operation as planned out and intricate as the destruction of an entire city.

i'm not disagreeing with you at all, just pointing out certain aspects of "realism" that were lacking from Begins, for those who complain about Nolan's vision being too "real".

 

[TheLongestDay]

totally,it still bends the laws of "film reality" and asks the viewer to suspend their disbelief-just as any movie about a man dressed up as a bat would

 

[Mr. Socko]

doesnt that sorta poopoo on everything Batman stands for?

 

[El Payaso]

Ah but you see,hed already saved him once and look what happend! lol

Yeah. Finally Batman learnt Ras' lesson about compassion and let him die. But... doesn't that sorta poopoo on everything Batman stands for?

 

[Spider-Bat]

There Should Be No Realism In Any Comic Book Movie, It Has Been Proven That The Comic Movies That Are Not Faithful And The Realism Is Too Much That Those Movies Are Not Successful.

And It Does Not Matter That Batman Has No Powers He Still Lives In A Fantastic World And Does Things No Ordinary Man Can Do. That Is The Fun Of It.

Either Do It Right Or Don't Do It At All. Nolan's Vision Is Dull.
All He Wants To Do Is Try To Tack On His So Called Surprise Endings Focusing More On Those Than The Character.

I Can't Wait Till Someone Else Takes Over The Franchis And Fixes This Mess. The Joker Has Been Destroyed And I'm Sure Bob Kane Is Rolling Over In His Grave Same Goes For Bill Finger.

Just A Shame.

Batman Should Be Gothic, Dark, Stylistic, But Not Boring, Dull And Brown. There Should Be No Realism At All, It Robbed Ra's Of His Character And Now Joker Has Been Screwed Over. I Could Have Lived With Bb But After Seeing Stupid Heath 'bad Choice' Ledger As The Un-joker I Am Done, This Is Not Batman.

Burton Did Better. I'll Just Watch Tas, And Batman, Batman Returns, And Batman Forever.

 

[TheLongestDay]

not saving someone (who could quite possibly save themselves anyway) isnt the same as murdering someone

 

[Mr. Socko]

not saving someone (who could quite possibly save themselves anyway) isnt the same as murdering someone

 

[TheLongestDay]

lol,you have to take into consideration the day and age in which that was made-for instance,just because it was in the comics back in the 40s doesnt mean Superman should be killing Nazis and the Japanese.

Batman maybe killed in the comics for a couple of years but that pales in comparison to how long hes been strongly against it

like bruce said "thats why its (compassion) is so important...it seperates us from them"

 

[El Payaso]

not saving someone (who could quite possibly save themselves anyway) isnt the same as murdering someone

Then why he didn't let Ra's or Ducard to kill that guy in the monastery?

But at the very least, letting someone to die when he could have saved him means he learnt how to deny the compassion he once had.

Ra's won in the end and made Bruce a little more like him.

Batman maybe killed in the comics for a couple of years but that pales in comparison to how long hes been strongly against it

At the same time, those days without Robin were so much better. So much that Burton AND Nolan decided to keep a lonely Batman in spite of all the Robin decades that came later.

like bruce said "thats why its (compassion) is so important...it seperates us from them"

And Nolan did a great job backing up Batman's non killing stance. That doesn't mean the other way is automatically invalid. Or we should be claiming for a Robin right now based on all those years of robin in comics.

But again, if he thinks compasion separate "us" from "them," he quite lost his compasion in Ra's case.

 

[TheLongestDay]

Then why he didn't let Ra's or Ducard to kill that guy in the monastery?

But at the very least, letting someone to die when he could have saved him means he learnt how to deny the compassion he once had.

Ra's won in the end and made Bruce a little more like him.



At the same time, those days without Robin were so much better. So much that Burton AND Nolan decided to keep a lonely Batman in spite of all the Robin decades that came later.



And Nolan did a great job backing up Batman's non killing stance. That doesn't mean the other way is automatically invalid. Or we should be claiming for a Robin right now based on all those years of robin in comics.

But again, if he thinks compasion separate "us" from "them," he quite lost his compasion in Ra's case.

well firstly thats if you believe he actually did die which i dont-plus he had the training and means to save himself so its more a case of it wasnt Bats job to save his ass.

Secondly,Nolan decided to keep a lonely batman because its his first movie-hes just beginning,besides after the death of Jason Todd there was a long period with no Robin,and even since Tim there has been long spells on his own.That just seems to be better for the character in alot of peoples eyes-just like the no killing rule

 

[BubbaGump]

There Should Be No Realism In Any Comic Book Movie, It Has Been Proven That The Comic Movies That Are Not Faithful And The Realism Is Too Much That Those Movies Are Not Successful.

And It Does Not Matter That Batman Has No Powers He Still Lives In A Fantastic World And Does Things No Ordinary Man Can Do. That Is The Fun Of It.

Either Do It Right Or Don't Do It At All. Nolan's Vision Is Dull.
All He Wants To Do Is Try To Tack On His So Called Surprise Endings Focusing More On Those Than The Character.

I Can't Wait Till Someone Else Takes Over The Franchis And Fixes This Mess. The Joker Has Been Destroyed And I'm Sure Bob Kane Is Rolling Over In His Grave Same Goes For Bill Finger.

Just A Shame.

Batman Should Be Gothic, Dark, Stylistic, But Not Boring, Dull And Brown. There Should Be No Realism At All, It Robbed Ra's Of His Character And Now Joker Has Been Screwed Over. I Could Have Lived With Bb But After Seeing Stupid Heath 'bad Choice' Ledger As The Un-joker I Am Done, This Is Not Batman.

Burton Did Better. I'll Just Watch Tas, And Batman, Batman Returns, And Batman Forever.

Epic fail.

 

[Rory gets laid]

There Should Be No Realism In Any Comic Book Movie, It Has Been Proven That The Comic Movies That Are Not Faithful And The Realism Is Too Much That Those Movies Are Not Successful.

And It Does Not Matter That Batman Has No Powers He Still Lives In A Fantastic World And Does Things No Ordinary Man Can Do. That Is The Fun Of It.

Either Do It Right Or Don't Do It At All. Nolan's Vision Is Dull.
All He Wants To Do Is Try To Tack On His So Called Surprise Endings Focusing More On Those Than The Character.

I Can't Wait Till Someone Else Takes Over The Franchis And Fixes This Mess. The Joker Has Been Destroyed And I'm Sure Bob Kane Is Rolling Over In His Grave Same Goes For Bill Finger.

Just A Shame.

Batman Should Be Gothic, Dark, Stylistic, But Not Boring, Dull And Brown. There Should Be No Realism At All, It Robbed Ra's Of His Character And Now Joker Has Been Screwed Over. I Could Have Lived With Bb But After Seeing Stupid Heath 'bad Choice' Ledger As The Un-joker I Am Done, This Is Not Batman.

Burton Did Better. I'll Just Watch Tas, And Batman, Batman Returns, And Batman Forever.

What. The. Fuch.

 

[Fenrir]

Burton Did Better. I'll Just Watch Tas, And Batman, Batman Returns, And Batman Forever.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

 

[MAKIEVELLI]

There Should Be No Realism In Any Comic Book Movie, It Has Been Proven That The Comic Movies That Are Not Faithful And The Realism Is Too Much That Those Movies Are Not Successful.

And It Does Not Matter That Batman Has No Powers He Still Lives In A Fantastic World And Does Things No Ordinary Man Can Do. That Is The Fun Of It.

Either Do It Right Or Don't Do It At All. Nolan's Vision Is Dull.
All He Wants To Do Is Try To Tack On His So Called Surprise Endings Focusing More On Those Than The Character.

I Can't Wait Till Someone Else Takes Over The Franchis And Fixes This Mess. The Joker Has Been Destroyed And I'm Sure Bob Kane Is Rolling Over In His Grave Same Goes For Bill Finger.

Just A Shame.

Batman Should Be Gothic, Dark, Stylistic, But Not Boring, Dull And Brown. There Should Be No Realism At All, It Robbed Ra's Of His Character And Now Joker Has Been Screwed Over. I Could Have Lived With Bb But After Seeing Stupid Heath 'bad Choice' Ledger As The Un-joker I Am Done, This Is Not Batman.

Burton Did Better. I'll Just Watch Tas, And Batman, Batman Returns, And Batman Forever.

Heath "Bad Choice" Ledger? That's the best you could come up with? Wow.....That's........Wow

 

[El Payaso]

well firstly thats if you believe he actually did die which i dont-

It's irrelevant whether Ra's died or lived. It's Batman's intentions what count. He decided to let him die showing no compasion he once said he had. It was Ra's lesson to not show compasion towards the enemy. In the end, Batman behaved like Ra's respect to compasion.

That said, if Batman really believed Ra's would survive, then all what he did was letting him go free. He better would have arrested him.

That said, what made you ever think Ra's survived???

-plus he had the training and means to save himself so its more a case of it wasnt Bats job to save his ass.

Is Batman job to let his enemies die?

Batman could have saved him as he did in the monastery fire. He chose not to. Apparently Ra's was being much of a trouble for Bats. That's admitting his compasion towards human life stance didn't work for him in extreme situations.

Secondly,Nolan decided to keep a lonely batman because its his first movie-hes just beginning,besides after the death of Jason Todd there was a long period with no Robin,and even since Tim there has been long spells on his own.

Nolan decided not to have Robin simply because he doesn't like the character. He stated that as long as he's involved in the movies Robin won't be there.

But what if after Jason Todd there was no Robin for a period? These movies are about Batman's first years.

That said, if we accept a period of time of certain characteristics in comics is valid, then we have to agree that if Batman killed in a period of time then it's valid too to depict him like that in a movie.

That just seems to be better for the character in alot of peoples eyes-just like the no killing rule

The same as in many other people's eyes it is better a Robin next to Batman or a vengeful angry Batman that kills now and then.