The Relationship Thread: Single Posters on Patrol - Part 18

[Erzengel]

is there much more to life? if it's not closing down a bar, it's closing down a bowling alley, a coffeehouse, or a movie theatre. then there are those who just play video games, watch bad tv, or surf the internet. being in a relationship doesn't change much; just throws responsibility into the mix.

Well there's a little to relationships than that especially when one starts living together.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

Maybe, but if it stays just at casual flirting, one hopes that the guys would take the hint.

My take is that maybe women shouldn't be flirting with guys that the don't have an interest in if those guys do have an interest.

 

[terry78]

^There's a lot of **** we as people shouldn't do, but it is what it is. Women are ravenous when it comes to their self-esteem, and they will eagerly take it with no intention of ever banging you. But we as dudes can never seem to grasp that.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

^There's a lot of **** we as people shouldn't do, but it is what it is. Women are ravenous when it comes to their self-esteem, and they will eagerly take it with no intention of ever banging you. But we as dudes can never seem to grasp that.

Well then they can stop getting mad when we stop talking to them when they don't let the relationship move forward.

 

[Anita18]

^There's a lot of **** we as people shouldn't do, but it is what it is. Women are ravenous when it comes to their self-esteem, and they will eagerly take it with no intention of ever banging you. But we as dudes can never seem to grasp that.

Not all women, but yes, a good number of them. I am in the vast minority, from what i can tell. I think it stems from our culture telling women they are worth nothing if they are not beautiful. Even some of my very intelligent friends fall into this trap. I'm lucky in that I look fairly presentable minutes after rolling out of bed, but I don't read fashion magazines for a reason. Even though I'm thin, my clothing is wrong, my hair isn't right, my nose is too big, my eyes need work, my nails ugh, don't get me started on my nails. It's a slippery slope. I just choose not to care, because any guy who'd care about that stuff is someone I don't want to know in the first place. Many women just want positive reinforcement that they're beautiful and it almost doesn't matter where it comes from. Except when you're an old creepster catcalling them from across the street.

When you tell a girl she's attractive, it makes her feel good about herself temporarily, but making her feel good about herself for a minute isn't going to automatically get her to bang you. Unless she's got REALLY low self-esteem, and you wouldn't want to get within 10 feet of that anyway. Even for a one night stand, she might turn out to be the crazy stalker type.

Well then they can stop getting mad when we stop talking to them when they don't let the relationship move forward.

Smart women know that already, yes. It's the dumb ones you have to look out for. But I tend to avoid dumb people in general. Men, women, doesn't matter.


But yes. For the guys out there, even if a girl laughs at your jokes or smiles when you tell her she's beautiful, it doesn't mean anything until she actually goes with you on that date. Or multiple dates. Or a ring. Depending which stage you are in.

 

[Frodo]

I do know women who actively flirt with other men even though they're attached, because they have low self-esteem and they want to feel like they're still attractive in a general sense. (I will be honest and say that I'm not attractive in a general sense, but I'm already married and I'm lazy, so I don't care. )

But they have no intention of cheating, they just want the self-esteem boost. I have no good answer for that one. The women usually don't let their bf/husbands know they're doing that, so they do know it's "wrong"....

Yeah, it happens, but then again there's stuff guys do that they wouldn't want their gf's or wives to know either. Its not like us guys are saints all the time. That said, there are women who flirt and who like the attention even if they're taken or they may be single . I agree self esteem plays an issue as well especially when they feel like only their spouse finds them attractive. Still though, they don't go the extra step .

There are women who do like the attention and alot of times their spouses take them for granted and forget to let them know how great they are. Then some other guys show up and start flirting with them or reciprocate the flirting she may do and it boosts their confidence.

As guys, we don't have that same level of a self esteem issue in regards to feeling attractive. I mean, we'd be fine if every woman thought we were hot , but we don't somehow feel hurt or have lower self esteem if we think our wives or gf's are the only ones who think we're attractive.

That said, as a guy , you gotta be able to discern between a woman who's flirting with the intention of going to nowhere's ville , and woman who's flirting and who's actually interested in taking things further.

It seems to me , as I always say to guys, if you're paying attention to what she's actually saying, behaving, and doing , you should be able to tell whether she really is interested or whether she's just attracted.

 

[Anita18]

Yeah, it happens, but then again there's stuff guys do that they wouldn't want their gf's or wives to know either. Its not like us guys are saints all the time. That said, there are women who flirt and who like the attention even if they're taken or they may be single . I agree self esteem plays an issue as well especially when they feel like only their spouse finds them attractive. Still though, they don't go the extra step .

There are women who do like the attention and alot of times their spouses take them for granted and forget to let them know how great they are. Then some other guys show up and start flirting with them or reciprocate the flirting she may do and it boosts their confidence.

As guys, we don't have that same level of a self esteem issue in regards to feeling attractive. I mean, we'd be fine if every woman thought we were hot , but we don't somehow feel hurt or have lower self esteem if we think our wives or gf's are the only ones who think we're attractive.

That said, as a guy , you gotta be able to discern between a woman who's flirting with the intention of going to nowhere's ville , and woman who's flirting and who's actually interested in taking things further.

It seems to me , as I always say to guys, if you're paying attention to what she's actually saying, behaving, and doing , you should be able to tell whether she really is interested or whether she's just attracted.

Well our society doesn't tell guys that they're worthless if they're not beautiful. Men are, however, considered worthless if they don't have a well-paying job. So it's just different things that we're self-conscious about. One's just more visually obvious than the other.

I think the difference is whether she's interested in you too. A woman who just wants to hear how attractive she is, won't be as interested in you as a person. Relationships are a two-way street.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

Well our society doesn't tell guys that they're worthless if they're not beautiful.

Tell that to guys that don't look like this:

Although I won't lie, I'd probably go half gay for Hugh for like, 5 minutes.

 

[Anita18]

Tell that to guys that don't look like this:

Although I won't lie, I'd probably go half gay for Hugh for like, 5 minutes.

Actually, I'm a little befuddled as to how Javier Bardem is considered attractive. He does nothing for me.

But seriously? Take a look at the many rich and/or powerful guys, and see how many people comment on how unattractive they are. (Not even YouTube comments, but in real life.) Does anyone really comment on how Barack Obama looks, vs his wife? Or what an utter ogre Rupert Murdoch is? No.

(And rich and/or powerful guys can easily bag a beautiful (trophy) wife. Whereas an average girl barely has a chance with even most average guys. We're relegated to searching for the rare weirdo who somehow think we're beautiful. )

Compare that to how people react to how Michelle Obama or Hillary Clinton look vs what they do. They are BAMFing intelligent, capable women, but God forbid they pick a bad outfit. I nearly went ballistic when the news went bonkers over Michelle Obama's bangs.

For women, it's not enough to be intelligent. It's not enough to be capable. You have to be beautiful too. But not too beautiful, or else nobody takes you seriously.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

I completely disagree with you that an "average" girl struggles to find an "average" guy. Most guys I know are attracted to the "average" girl and those are the girls that they talk to and have relationships with, and none of my "average" female friends struggle to get male attention. I understand that you consider yourself "average" and say you never dated a lot outside of your husband and like, an ex-boyfriend, but you are also a self admitted hermit also that doesn't really engage in much social interaction. I haven't seen many pictures of you, but I've seen your wedding picture that you posted on here, and I can tell you that you're not a girl that me or any guy that I know would avoid based off of looks.

I think Hillary Clinton is a perfect example. I don't think many people, if anyone, really consider Hillary Clinton all that attractive. But she is revered because of her drive, and her political ideals, and all that she has accomplished. Michelle Obama gets spoken about her appearance a bit more because she embraces that fashionable lifestyle and persona. On the flip side, I don't particularly recall much being made of Laura Bush, Tipper Gore, or Barbara Bush's appearance or fashion. But being elegant is a trait that Michelle Obama embraces.

I don't buy for a second that women in society are only valued if they are beautiful. I see way too many women like Hillary Clinton, Ellen Degeneres, Paula Dean (recent controversies aside), and countless others that are less than attractive who are valued because of their success and their contributions. Sure, in media, and movies, and TV, and music, beauty is far more valued, but then again that goes for men as well, and that's where we have the types of guys that I posted above.

 

[JJJ's Ulcer]

Tell that to guys that don't look like this:

Although I won't lie, I'd probably go half gay for Hugh for like, 5 minutes.

You go crazy for guys pushing 50?

 

[hopefuldreamer]

^There's a lot of **** we as people shouldn't do, but it is what it is. Women are ravenous when it comes to their self-esteem, and they will eagerly take it with no intention of ever banging you. But we as dudes can never seem to grasp that.

Well then they can stop getting mad when we stop talking to them when they don't let the relationship move forward.

I think it's a really fine line.

I mean, what do you want a woman to do - just ASSUME that every guy who pays her a compliment needs to be immediately told 'Before you get the wrong idea, I don't wanna go out with you'?

I would never do that, because I know some guys compliment for tonnes of different reasons - because they are just being nice, because they actually fancy your friend, because they want something out of you etc.

And if you were 'honest off the bat' with every guy that was nice to you, you'd end up with absolutely no male friends, because they'd probably find your defensive reaction to them trying to even talking to you or give you a single compliment quite rude.

Of course, there is a line after which a women really should have spoken up. If the guy is giving a bit too much of himself, seems to be spending a bit too much time with just you, is buying you things or offering you help with things that a friend just wouldn't do - then it becomes obvious, and then you really should say something and not continue taking advantage.

Basically, i'm just saying it's not that easy to box a 'what you should do' in situations like this.

Each one is completely subjective.

And for the record, i've had it done to me too, and I didn't cry about it.

I was working as a barmaid and had this guy who used to come in every sat/sun on his own and drink at the bar flirting away with me. We'd laugh and joke, even dance sometimes at the end of the night on my break. He would sometimes get serious and tell me this deep stuff about his life. He even drunkenly tried to get me to come home with him one night, and then on New Years said we should go on a date and took my number.

But when I actually asked him out? He said no.

People are confusing. People can't make up their minds.

Not women.

PEOPLE.

 

[RetrogradeOrbit]

People are just plain confusing/weird to me. I don't understand any of them... Male or Female.

Of course, I am also as weird as they come. Otherwise I wouldn't be here, right?

 

[Anita18]

I completely disagree with you that an "average" girl struggles to find an "average" guy. Most guys I know are attracted to the "average" girl and those are the girls that they talk to and have relationships with, and none of my "average" female friends struggle to get male attention. I understand that you consider yourself "average" and say you never dated a lot outside of your husband and like, an ex-boyfriend, but you are also a self admitted hermit also that doesn't really engage in much social interaction. I haven't seen many pictures of you, but I've seen your wedding picture that you posted on here, and I can tell you that you're not a girl that me or any guy that I know would avoid based off of looks.

I think Hillary Clinton is a perfect example. I don't think many people, if anyone, really consider Hillary Clinton all that attractive. But she is revered because of her drive, and her political ideals, and all that she has accomplished. Michelle Obama gets spoken about her appearance a bit more because she embraces that fashionable lifestyle and persona. On the flip side, I don't particularly recall much being made of Laura Bush, Tipper Gore, or Barbara Bush's appearance or fashion. But being elegant is a trait that Michelle Obama embraces.

I don't buy for a second that women in society are only valued if they are beautiful. I see way too many women like Hillary Clinton, Ellen Degeneres, Paula Dean (recent controversies aside), and countless others that are less than attractive who are valued because of their success and their contributions. Sure, in media, and movies, and TV, and music, beauty is far more valued, but then again that goes for men as well, and that's where we have the types of guys that I posted above.

As a woman, I don't see this. It's hard to think otherwise when you consider this is the cream of the crop of richest people. First of all, a vast majority of them are men. (The women on that list inherited their wealth.) Second, how many of these men could really be considered attractive? Clearly, men can get ahead if they don't look like Hugh Jackman. It's about what the man does.

Maybe it's because you don't know the extent of which every woman has to groom to look presentable to the outside world. Even the women I know who are focused on their career and not getting a man, they HAVE to pay attention to their looks to a certain extent. You think a Fortune 500 executive would take a female lawyer seriously if she wasn't wearing makeup or had her hair done? If she didn't look "put together?" Even Paula Deen gets her makeup and hair done before she steps in front of a camera. (Imagine what she would look like if she didn't! ) Men don't have to think about that, at least not in regular life. On TV, everyone gets makeup because they all look dead otherwise.

Things are changing, I agree. Not every woman has to look like a supermodel to be famous and loved. But they still have to look put together, and that takes more effort than you think. Ellen DeGeneres is a CoverGirl model, after all.

It's just something that's occurring more to me now that I'm making a career change. In a lab, I wear what I don't mind getting bleached accidentally, but I'm noticing as I attend Meetups in my target field, how well put-together the women are. I mean, it's not so bad that I'd have to buy designer pantsuits, but I'm shopping for a new wardrobe, for sure.

I mean, for guys working in an office, you still need to adhere to a certain dress code. But in an office job, you're mostly expected not to stick out like a sore thumb, and the standard is higher for women than it is for men.

 

[RetrogradeOrbit]

^^^
Very true, not fair in the slightest, but very true.

 

[Mace Bloodstone]

People are just plain confusing/weird to me. I don't understand any of them... Male or Female.

Of course, I am also as weird as they come. Otherwise I wouldn't be here, right?

Spoiler

 

[RetrogradeOrbit]

^^^
I loved that show. Echoes of my own relationships were plenty...

 

[Erzengel]

I completely disagree with you that an "average" girl struggles to find an "average" guy. Most guys I know are attracted to the "average" girl and those are the girls that they talk to and have relationships with, and none of my "average" female friends struggle to get male attention. I understand that you consider yourself "average" and say you never dated a lot outside of your husband and like, an ex-boyfriend, but you are also a self admitted hermit also that doesn't really engage in much social interaction. I haven't seen many pictures of you, but I've seen your wedding picture that you posted on here, and I can tell you that you're not a girl that me or any guy that I know would avoid based off of looks.

I know so many average to below average guys who have scored an attractive gf/wife. I mean, these were beauty pageant winners, really attractive girls that could have guys as hot as they are. These guys are overweight, doofy or geeky looking. But maybe there's something more to them then just their looks. Maybe they treat them better. Maybe they are hysterical. Maybe these women look past superficial exteriors.

I know your experience is from your social circle you think it's the opposite. But, to say that most guys are attractive to an average girls, yet they admire celebrities etc. is just nonsense. Most guys and girls can appreciate someone good looking and would date someone attractive if given half the chance. Maybe the guys you know just aim lower.

I think Hillary Clinton is a perfect example. I don't think many people, if anyone, really consider Hillary Clinton all that attractive. But she is revered because of her drive, and her political ideals, and all that she has accomplished. Michelle Obama gets spoken about her appearance a bit more because she embraces that fashionable lifestyle and persona. On the flip side, I don't particularly recall much being made of Laura Bush, Tipper Gore, or Barbara Bush's appearance or fashion. But being elegant is a trait that Michelle Obama embraces.

I don't buy for a second that women in society are only valued if they are beautiful. I see way too many women like Hillary Clinton, Ellen Degeneres, Paula Dean (recent controversies aside), and countless others that are less than attractive who are valued because of their success and their contributions. Sure, in media, and movies, and TV, and music, beauty is far more valued, but then again that goes for men as well, and that's where we have the types of guys that I posted above.

People may respect Hillary Clinton's accomplishments as Senator and Secretary of State but she doesn't have 1/8th of the charisma of her "husband". She comes off as cold and unapproachable.

Michelle Obama comes off as warm and more likable.

I think it's a really fine line.

I mean, what do you want a woman to do - just ASSUME that every guy who pays her a compliment needs to be immediately told 'Before you get the wrong idea, I don't wanna go out with you'?

I would never do that, because I know some guys compliment for tonnes of different reasons - because they are just being nice, because they actually fancy your friend, because they want something out of you etc.

And if you were 'honest off the bat' with every guy that was nice to you, you'd end up with absolutely no male friends, because they'd probably find your defensive reaction to them trying to even talking to you or give you a single compliment quite rude.

Of course, there is a line after which a women really should have spoken up. If the guy is giving a bit too much of himself, seems to be spending a bit too much time with just you, is buying you things or offering you help with things that a friend just wouldn't do - then it becomes obvious, and then you really should say something and not continue taking advantage.

Basically, i'm just saying it's not that easy to box a 'what you should do' in situations like this.

Each one is completely subjective.

And for the record, i've had it done to me too, and I didn't cry about it.

I was working as a barmaid and had this guy who used to come in every sat/sun on his own and drink at the bar flirting away with me. We'd laugh and joke, even dance sometimes at the end of the night on my break. He would sometimes get serious and tell me this deep stuff about his life. He even drunkenly tried to get me to come home with him one night, and then on New Years said we should go on a date and took my number.

But when I actually asked him out? He said no.

People are confusing. People can't make up their minds.

Not women.

PEOPLE.

Agreed. But you have to remember this is a male dominated messageboard with a lot of guys experiences being limited. It's surprising talking to a lot of these posters and them never having girlfriends or even been on a date. Maybe enforcing the stereotype.

But, I'm sure you could do a disparaging thread about women, nice guys finishing last, why do women date a'holes and you'd have plenty of guys here comment about some story of vindictive women and heartbreak.

Then we get into the whole, well maybe you should s' or get off the pot, not hang around for months, or not be nice with ulterior motives.

It is people not just women.

I could go on about women I know. 1 girl was dating this guy for 3-4 years put his hands on her. Another girl was cheated on by her bf with someone at the same place of work. Actually there's 2 girls like that I know. Not to mention a girl who got ruffied and woke up naked in some guy's place. Another girl who's man won't progress the relationship ie. propose or at least move in together. Together for 5 or 6 years at least.

Can I start a thread about that men suck? Or is it the women's fault because they could have selected better?

 

[Frodo]

I could go on about women I know. 1 girl was dating this guy for 3-4 years put his hands on her. Another girl was cheated on by her bf with someone at the same place of work. Actually there's 2 girls like that I know. Not to mention a girl who got ruffied and woke up naked in some guy's place. Another girl who's man won't progress the relationship ie. propose or at least move in together. Together for 5 or 6 years at least.

Can I start a thread about that men suck? Or is it the women's fault because they could have selected better?

True. I've heard a lot of horror stories myself from women I've known from being stalked, controlled, cheated on, ruffied, dealing with needy jealous bf's, guys who don't make a move but get mad when she go out with someone else, etc. Its not like all guys are saints.

 

[Frodo]

I think the difference is whether she's interested in you too. A woman who just wants to hear how attractive she is, won't be as interested in you as a person. Relationships are a two-way street.

Yeah that's a good point too. I guess i'm not one of those guys who gets mad or worked up about being hit on or flirted with by a woman who just wants to know she's attractive, or who just likes to flirt . I find it to be pretty harmless really, and i've never thought " OMG, she's in love with me,. Better set the date".

Then again, i'm a flirt too so I know just because i may flirt with someone doesn't mean I want a relationship or that I'm so interested in them as a person that i'd want to pursue something. So I don't and I wouldn't hold anything against girls or women who do that.

 

[terry78]

I honestly think it does vary if you're one of those dudes that can't seem to snag anything because you're just not a very likable individual, and you get soured on it.

 

[Frodo]

I honestly think it does vary if you're one of those dudes that can't seem to snag anything because you're just not a very likable individual, and you get soured on it.

Yeah, and that same dude probably doesn't have that much experience or exposure to women anyway, so it becomes like a cycle of bitterness.

 

[Anita18]

I know so many average to below average guys who have scored an attractive gf/wife. I mean, these were beauty pageant winners, really attractive girls that could have guys as hot as they are. These guys are overweight, doofy or geeky looking. But maybe there's something more to them then just their looks. Maybe they treat them better. Maybe they are hysterical. Maybe these women look past superficial exteriors.

Yup. I remember years and years ago, I went to a 4-day workshop to help my stuttering, and one guy there was overweight, doofy, wore glasses, was balding, AND had a terrible stutter, and he had the most gorgeous fianceé sitting in the room with him, cheering him on the whole time.

But getting to know him, it was obvious he was an optimistic, hard-working, upstanding guy and didn't let any of his "flaws" stop him from getting out there. All that counts for way more than what he looked like and even what he talked like. Such a revelation was so strong to me that I'll never forget it.

His now-wife-of-10-years might have been the only beautiful woman to give him the time of day, but again, you only need one.

People may respect Hillary Clinton's accomplishments as Senator and Secretary of State but she doesn't have 1/8th of the charisma of her "husband". She comes off as cold and unapproachable.

Michelle Obama comes off as warm and more likable.

That doesn't necessarily have to do with how they look, but yeah, men who are cold and unapproachable are admired way more often than women who come off the same way. You have to be beautiful AND nice.

It is people not just women.

I could go on about women I know. 1 girl was dating this guy for 3-4 years put his hands on her. Another girl was cheated on by her bf with someone at the same place of work. Actually there's 2 girls like that I know. Not to mention a girl who got ruffied and woke up naked in some guy's place. Another girl who's man won't progress the relationship ie. propose or at least move in together. Together for 5 or 6 years at least.

Can I start a thread about that men suck? Or is it the women's fault because they could have selected better?

In my view, when something goes bad, it's the relationship being wrong, ie the partners being wrong for each other. It's never just one person's fault, or even necessarily anyone's "fault." Sometimes there's nothing you can do, because you can't make your partner do anything they don't want to do, like counseling.

Before someone cheats, there's breakdown in the relationship. Someone who's truly happy in a relationship doesn't cheat. I mean, an open relationship or marriage is a different thing (if both parties agree, I don't consider it cheating), but sneaking around means you know you're doing something wrong and hurting your partner.

I honestly think it does vary if you're one of those dudes that can't seem to snag anything because you're just not a very likable individual, and you get soured on it.

Well, you could be likeable in a friend-way, but not in a relationship-way. You could get soured on that too, and it's hard to explain why that is. I'm very comfortable around guys and guys are very comfortable around me, but none of them wanted to sleep with me (well, I didn't go to bars in a miniskirt, but you know what I mean ) until I met my now-husband in my mid-20s. It's hard to explain that. You just have to keep on trucking to find someone who finds you attractive in that way. There's no easy fix.

 

[Erzengel]

In my view, when something goes bad, it's the relationship being wrong, ie the partners being wrong for each other. It's never just one person's fault, or even necessarily anyone's "fault." Sometimes there's nothing you can do, because you can't make your partner do anything they don't want to do, like counseling.

Before someone cheats, there's breakdown in the relationship. Someone who's truly happy in a relationship doesn't cheat. I mean, an open relationship or marriage is a different thing (if both parties agree, I don't consider it cheating), but sneaking around means you know you're doing something wrong and hurting your partner.

I think this would be the case most of the time but I think most of my examples if blame could be given, the majority of it would still be with the guys, i.e. laying hands on a sig other, ruffies.

Even the ones cheated on, I'd probably lean more on the guy's side. I think they were in long standing relationships since they were in their teens and wanted to test the waters. The girls on the other hand were hoping for a proposal. Maybe you can blame a breakdown in communication but the cheating caught them really off guard.

 

[Anita18]

I think this would be the case most of the time but I think most of my examples if blame could be given, the majority of it would still be with the guys, i.e. laying hands on a sig other, ruffies.

Even the ones cheated on, I'd probably lean more on the guy's side. I think they were in long standing relationships since they were in their teens and wanted to test the waters. The girls on the other hand were hoping for a proposal. Maybe you can blame a breakdown in communication but the cheating caught them really off guard.

Well yeah, if you hit your partner or drug them, that's all you being a terrible person. Those folks shouldn't be in a relationship at all, period.

There's always a breakdown in communication when it comes to cheating. That's why it catches them so off guard. Even if it's one partner refusing to talk to the other, that's not necessarily anyone's "fault" (ie something one of them could fix single-handedly), but the relationship between them being wrong.

Like, my friend who doesn't talk to her husband about what she's doing. Is it her fault? Yeah, partly. But her husband flips out on her for days if she's admits she's doing anything except being a housewife. So to protect her own sanity, she just doesn't talk to him. So whose fault is it, really?

IMO, the only way to fix this is couples counseling (which they've tried and clearly don't follow) or divorce. There's no one person to blame here.