The showdown that "Should have been"

[ntcrawler]

There is no dark phoenix in the movieverse. Only Jean and essentially her id which is in control because her ego and superego would be stripped away. Her powers are neither unlimited, nor all-powerful. And neither is Jean's mind omnipotent. We clearly see from the footage that Jean does not know what everyone is thinking or planning, or what is happening or is going to happen around her. If she did she clearly could have prevented anything and Magneto would win in 5 minutes.

Storm stepped aside for Wolverine because that's what the writers wanted her to do. Not what Storm would do. Wolverine had no realistic chance against Jean. Adamantium skeletons and healing factors would not prevent him from instantly being pulverized into salsa and spread out across the land. It's the writers that saved him. Not his special abilitie's or Jean's supposed conflict or compassion, or the ridiculous idea that she was secretly pumping energy into him to let him heal faster.

Based on what we know about Storm and her abilities, at her full potential she would stand more than a fair chance against Jean even in her enraged state at Alcatraz, and some of her abilities would help provide for a natural defense against Jean's telepathy, thus making for a very interesting, intense, emotional, and engaging duel. Jean can't disintegrate if she's busy saving herself from an extra large helping of whoop ass.

A duel between two goddesses. The ultimate showdown. And a lesson of ideals. To be a goddess among insects? Or to accept humanity and to live among them like the woman that she is?

 

[The Original Bamfer]

There is no dark phoenix in the movieverse. Only Jean and essentially her id which is in control. Her powers are neither unlimited, nor all-powerful. And neither is Jean's mind omnipotent. Based on what we know about Storm and her abilities, at her full potential she would stand a fair chance against Jean even in her enraged state at Alcatraz, and some of her abilities would help provide for a natural defense against Jean's telepathy, thus making for a very interesting, intense, emotional, and engaging duel. A duel between two goddesses.

Dark Phoenix, though, can be used to title Jean when she's out of control and unstable.

Storm's weather-controlling ability can't disrupt TK fields. I really think you under-estimate Jean. Storm could just not stand up to that.

 

[chaseter]

^ I think he underestimates Jean highly. Her powers are limitless...she can control anything with her mind when she is the Phoenix. And ntcrawler keeps referring to movieverse Phoenix and that what we saw at Alcatraz was the limits of her powers. Well if you go by what we see in the movies...then Storm's limits are creating passive fog banks, gusty winds, and a few bolts of lighting. Xavier couldn't even withstand the force of the Phoenix...and he is more powerful than Storm to begin with. I know we haven't seen the best of Storm in the movies but I certainly know Jean would kick her @ss.

 

[ntcrawler]

Dark Phoenix, though, can be used to title Jean when she's out of control and unstable.

Agreed. But calling her dark phoenix does not make her more powerful. Actually, technically, the way they want us to understand things in X3, there is no "light" or "dark" phoenix. When it's Phoenix, it's bad. When she's good, she's Jean.

Storm's weather-controlling ability can't disrupt TK fields.

Storm has other abilities besides making it foggy or rainy or summoning lightning. It's more basic that than. Storm's ability to cause havoc and destruction, manipulate the permeability and conductivity and temperature of air, magnetic fields, and ability to pull a mutant's energy out of them can create quite effective, devastating attacks that would definitely sting and be appreciated, even by Jean.

I really think you under-estimate Jean.

And I really think you're turning Jean into the cliche of an all-powerful godlike villain, which she clearly isn't meant to be but some people feel she is.

Storm could just not stand up to that.

Storm is like a Timex watch. She takes a licking, but keeps on ticking. It takes more than TK to hurt her.

 

[chaseter]

BTW, if Storm had a tough time with Calisto...how do you think she would fare with Phoenix???

 

[chaseter]

Storm is like a Timex watch. She takes a licking, but keeps on ticking. It takes more than TK to hurt her.

Then Jean is like a perpetual Rolex...great to look at and will never die. But when she does happen to die...give it a good shake and boom she is back again.

 

[ntcrawler]

^ I think he underestimates Jean highly. Her powers are limitless...she can control anything with her mind when she is the Phoenix. And ntcrawler keeps referring to movieverse Phoenix and that what we saw at Alcatraz was the limits of her powers. Well if you go by what we see in the movies...then Storm's limits are creating passive fog banks, gusty winds, and a few bolts of lighting. Xavier couldn't even withstand the force of the Phoenix...and he is more powerful than Storm to begin with. I know we haven't seen the best of Storm in the movies but I certainly know Jean would kick her @ss.

And I think he's obsessed with the idea of limitless, godlike beings that can instantly destroy the world and kill everyone with an evil thought. Power-gaming, anyone? Level 87 Elf with 90,000 experience points, anyone? Cause that's what this sounds like. You end up with a char so ridiculously powerful she has to stand around there doing nothing, because no one, not even the writers who created her can figure out what to do with her. "Oh No! She can think us to death! SHe can destroy the world with a single thought!!!" I don't think so...

Jean's abilities at Alcatraz are shown as being as good as they're going to ever get. It can't be more powerful or enraged than that. On the other hand, Storm has not shown all the cards in her deck. She has not had the opportunity to show the full extent of her powers, or to even perform, since others keep stepping in front of her to handle things for her.

That she is the "Phoenix" and therefore the ultim@ta ph33r me l33t is not an excuse or an explanation, as the Phoenix itself is just her id. That's a personality, not her powers. Get it straight.

Xavier's powers and Storm's powers are different. He could stand up to Jean's mind, but not to her TK. Storm on the other hand can create physical, destructive.attacks of her own that would interfere with Jean's ability to use her TK. Xavier could not.

 

[The Original Bamfer]

Agreed. But calling her dark phoenix does not make her more powerful. Actually, technically, the way they want us to understand things in X3, there is no "light" or "dark" phoenix. When it's Phoenix, it's bad. When she's good, she's Jean.


Storm has other abilities besides making it foggy or rainy or summoning lightning. It's more basic that than. Storm's ability to cause havoc and destruction, manipulate the permeability and conductivity and temperature of air, magnetic fields, and ability to pull a mutant's energy out of them can create quite effective, devastating attacks that would definitely sting and be appreciated, even by Jean.



And I really think you're turning Jean into the cliche of an all-powerful godlike villain, which she clearly isn't meant to be but some people feel she is.


Storm is like a Timex watch. She takes a licking, but keeps on ticking. It takes more than TK to hurt her.

It takes more than TK? I suppose Storm is still effective in billions of micro-bits, eh?

 

[ntcrawler]

It takes more than TK? I suppose Storm is still effective in billions of micro-bits, eh?

Storm is more than just the sum of her parts

 

[ntcrawler]

Kinberg's version of Jean is not life incarnate, but a pissed off persona trapped in a body with strong TK and telepathic powers.

Storm on the other hand, is the power of nature. Mother earth incarnate. Nature can be nurturing, beautiful, peaceful. But cross nature the wrong way. and you will summon her wrath. And when nature's rage is unleashed...

 

[chaseter]

And I think he's obsessed with the idea of limitless, godlike beings that can instantly destroy the world and kill everyone with an evil thought. Power-gaming, anyone? Level 87 Elf with 90,000 experience points, anyone? Cause that's what this sounds like. You end up with a char so ridiculously powerful she has to stand around there doing nothing, because no one, not even the writers who created her can figure out what to do with her. "Oh No! She can think us to death! SHe can destroy the world with a single thought!!!" I don't think so...

Jean's abilities at Alcatraz are shown as being as good as they're going to ever get. It can't be more powerful or enraged than that. On the other hand, Storm has not shown all the cards in her deck. She has not had the opportunity to show the full extent of her powers, or to even perform, since others keep stepping in front of her to handle things for her.

That she is the "Phoenix" and therefore the ultim@ta ph33r me l33t is not an excuse or an explanation, as the Phoenix itself is just her id. That's a personality, not her powers. Get it straight.

Xavier's powers and Storm's powers are different. He could stand up to Jean's mind, but not to her TK. Storm on the other hand can create physical, destructive.attacks of her own that would interfere with Jean's ability to use her TK. Xavier could not.

You are starting to make me angry hyping up Storm so much and trying to drag down Jean. Guess what...no more Storm in the movies...waa waa. We didn't see her at ther full potential and will never. Halle Berry as Storm was a hack job and her pursuit for more screen time cut into the budget and wasted other greater character's time in X3. Halle's ego after X2 was huge until Catwoman hit and put her back into her place. Storm in the movies can control the weather...that is it...and produce a few hand bolts. You mentioned earlier about Phoenix having to concentrate to use all her powers. Well a tornado or a hurricane doesn't happen in 2 seconds either. And last time I watched the movies...I saw Storm standing there with her arms out while her eyes turned white while she tried to produce the effect she wanted. Storm can create physical attacks but Jean could easily counter those or even just enter Storm's frail little defenseless mind and make her beat the s*** out of her self. Storm and Jean step onto the battle field...Jean enter Storm's mind and makes her punch herself for 10 minutes...game over. Lets not forget the demolecurizing force field she can create. Anything Storm throws her way would be toast...so Storm would never be allowed to get within fist's range. And now to Storm's weather attacks. Aside from being beaten by her incapable mind...if Jean didn't use mind tricks she could easily cocoon herself with her powers like she did from the millions of gallons of water that Alkali lake threw at her...which is more than Storm could produce. And now to lightning. If Jean can control objects...she can easily keep those going at Storm, causing her from having to stand there, hold out her arms while her eyes turn white, and try to produce lightning. Sure Storm can produce it out of her body...but it is not sufficient enough to take down Jean which could easily block the attack with debris such as cars, people, or huge chunks of whatever she wants.

 

[The Original Bamfer]

And I think he's obsessed with the idea of limitless, godlike beings that can instantly destroy the world and kill everyone with an evil thought. Power-gaming, anyone? Level 87 Elf with 90,000 experience points, anyone? Cause that's what this sounds like. You end up with a char so ridiculously powerful she has to stand around there doing nothing, because no one, not even the writers who created her can figure out what to do with her. "Oh No! She can think us to death! SHe can destroy the world with a single thought!!!" I don't think so...

You know me so well...

Movie-verse Jean may not be able to devour a star - but she could kill anyone she wants to. Even Storm. Xavier knew the power she contained was far too much for her, so he blocked it off. Did he block Storm's off? No... Not because Storm was more capable to control her powers, but because Jean's was much stronger.

Jean's abilities at Alcatraz are shown as being as good as they're going to ever get. It can't be more powerful or enraged than that. On the other hand, Storm has not shown all the cards in her deck. She has not had the opportunity to show the full extent of her powers, or to even perform, since others keep stepping in front of her to handle things for her.

You assume that's Jean's full potential, and I have no doubt it could be. I'd say turning people into absolute nothingness but tiny particles qualifies as some fair strength. Nothing Storm can do could hold Dark Phoenix off long enough to allow her to get a shot - let alone, assuring her own survival. If Jean was totally lost and fighting Storm. Storm would be dead in a flash. Dark Phoenix wouldn't hesitate.

That she is the "Phoenix" and therefore the ultim@ta ph33r me l33t is not an excuse or an explanation, as the Phoenix itself is just her id. That's a personality, not her powers. Get it straight.

You're quite the master at lite speak... let's hope none of that shows up in your oh-so-promising rewrite.

Phoenix is a personality, correct. But it takes over Jean when her abilities are beyond her control. Anytime she loses it, Phoenix takes over.

This means:
Phoenix=Power, Jean=Power Blocked/Moderated

With the power levels comes the personality.

Xavier's powers and Storm's powers are different. He could stand up to Jean's mind, but not to her TK. Storm on the other hand can create physical, destructive.attacks of her own that would interfere with Jean's ability to use her TK. Xavier could not.

Storm could try to, yes. But Jean could easily stop it. It is certainly within her limits to be able to deflect lightning or wind, or see through fog and mist - whether using Telepathy or Telekinesis.

 

[ntcrawler]

You are starting to make me angry hyping up Storm so much and trying to drag down Jean.

Oh dear. Now I'm really afraid. Please don't disintegrate me.

And I would never drag down Jean. In fact I tend to up-play her. She's my fav char after all. I just want to give credit where it's due. It's a concept that some people have lots of problems with.

Guess what...no more Storm in the movies...waa waa.

Now I'm really upset, sniff sniff

We didn't see her at ther full potential and will never.

We saw her naught at her full potential in the first 3 X-men films, but see her in the next three installments, we will. Problems with grammar have I. Yes!

Halle Berry as Storm was a hack job and her pursuit for more screen time cut into the budget and wasted other greater character's time in X3. Halle's ego after X2 was huge until Catwoman hit and put her back into her place.

Halle wasn't given a good script to work with. The woman does know how to express herself and do drama. But when she has to play a character that's essentually a remote control for operating the weather, there's only so much she or even Angela Basset could do.

Storm in the movies can control the weather...that is it...and produce a few hand bolts. You mentioned earlier about Phoenix having to concentrate to use all her powers. Well a tornado or a hurricane doesn't happen in 2 seconds either.

Nope, but Storm can do alot more than just a tornado or hurricane. Give her... 3-4 seconds. Yeah that's about right.

And last time I watched the movies...I saw Storm standing there with her arms out while her eyes turned white while she tried to produce the effect she wanted.

And last time I saw Jean she slowly had to build up her powers, the eyes go black, the veins pop out, and then raise her hands like Carrie when she wanted to really get nasty. Not snap her fingers and then BOOM, the whole town is dead. Or do you like to skip those parts of the movie that support the opposition's views?

Storm can create physical attacks but Jean could easily counter those or even just enter Storm's frail little defenseless mind and make her beat the s*** out of her self.

Just like Storm has the ability to counter Jean's physical attacks, as well as some natural defenses to counter Jean's mental attacks as well. So you see, at best the battle would come out to a long, drawn-out draw.

Lets not forget the demolecurizing force field she can create.

A demolecularizing force field....


BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA that's the best meaningless example of technobabble I ever heard! You should consider working for the Star Trek people. This is even better than the "Starboard gravimetric Hyper trans-annular confinement power coupling" they keep having problems with.

For your information, the destructive process that Jean unleashes is correctly called "disintegration", that is the systematic breaking of molecular bonds in order to separate an object into its component, material forms. "demolecularizing" is not a word. You don't "demolecule" anything. Just like you don't "de-life" someone. or "De-feather" a chicken.

And in science fiction terms (not chemical or physical terms, but for the purposes of this discussion), a "force field" is a barrier made up of energy to protect a person, area or object from attacks or intrusions. It is a barrier. Not an area of destruction.

So I don't know what you mean by your term. It's meaningless, illogical technobabble. It says nothing, it reveals nothing, it explains nothing. I'm basing my arguments on real, physical, logical examples. Comparing abilities and how they are presented. You are using technobabble. This is about as silly as the concept of an all-powerful, all-destructive evil phoenix monster that's so powerful she can destroy the whole world with a single thought, but instead juf stands there for a 1/2 hour while everybody else fights.

if Jean didn't use mind tricks she could easily cocoon herself with her powers like she did from the millions of gallons of water that Alkali lake threw at her...

That is pure conjecture. It was not revealed conclusively what happened to Jean, so this is at best, your interpretation of events. Jean's body could have easily been completely destroyed, and it was her soul which survived thanks to her advanced telepathy anchoring her to the mortal world, during which overtime her body was slowly rebuilt. the analogy to a baby developing during pregnancy, hence the 8-9 months before her return.

Sure Storm can produce it out of her body...but it is not sufficient enough to take down Jean which could easily block the attack with debris such as cars, people, or huge chunks of whatever she wants.

[/QUOTE]
Oh I see. So you stood there with a field strength meter and measured Storm's energy levels vs Jeans, so you can say this not out of wishful thinking because you are cheering for Jean, but because you feel that this is a fair comparison of both character's full potential?

And for your information, Storm does not produce lightning from her body. She either channels it from the air, or THROUGH her body, which she uses as a conductor connected to ground. Jean cannot effectively block lightning because it is not a physical object being thrown at her. It is not aimed the way you aim a rock when you throw at someone. Jean would not be ablet to protect herself by putting a car in front of her. Lighning is... instantaneous. And Lightning goes around obstacles to find its target.

Even against Jean, this is going to be one intense battle that does not end any time soon. Unless someone splits them up, both are going to be seriously, seriously hurt and the land decimated worse than from any known pestilence.

 

[chaseter]

^Your making fun of my quick typing anger skills and said I should go work for Star Trek yet on the previous page you referred to fictional characters as real people...yea your cool. I am not going to argue with you anymore...ask an old woman who has seen the movie and she would even tell you that Jean is more powerful than Storm. Jean was more powerful than Storm in the comics...and she is more powerful in the movies.

 

[DarknessOfDeath]

gah. im not reading all of this...the person who needs a kick in the pants is Javon. why on the hype did u have to make another Phoenix vs Storm thread? LS is gonna close it anyway. I hope. im sick of fighting to no end.

And JEAN is by far the Most Powerful Mutant EVER! She can lift a jet, keep nightcrawler in his place, hold back a gallon of water and have a one way conversation through the Professor...she even destroyed that one missle with her freaking mind. now thats...like...Powerful....I wish I could blow my mom ...not my real mom but blow my adoptive mom up to bits with my mind.

Anyway...

 

[ntcrawler]

You know me so well...

I learn new things every day

Movie-verse Jean may not be able to devour a star - but she could kill anyone she wants to. Even Storm. Xavier knew the power she contained was far too much for her, so he blocked it off. Did he block Storm's off? No... Not because Storm was more capable to control her powers, but because Jean's was much stronger.

Jean's powers would be no more difficult to contral than Xavier's or Storm's. Xavier could effectively mentally rape anyone on the planet, and Storm could destroy all life on earth. Yet neither of them are seen clutching their heads screaming "NO!!! TOO MUCH POWER!!!! can't control!!! too much temptation!!!" Blocking it could help her cope during times of crisis, such as when her telepathy becomes too much and she is crushed by all the voices that invade her mind, but it would not create an alternate persona. Jean if anything is an understanding, compassionate individual who knew the need for control as it was helpful and benefitial to her. Not resentful because she was being held back. If anything, she didn't WANT to burst forward. Her powers are no more dangerous or corrupting than Storm's or Xavier's, whose powers are also linked to their emotions, like Jean.s If they could learn to control them, so could Jean.

You assume that's Jean's full potential, and I have no doubt it could be. I'd say turning people into absolute nothingness but tiny particles qualifies as some fair strength. Nothing Storm can do could hold Dark Phoenix off long enough to allow her to get a shot - let alone, assuring her own survival. If Jean was totally lost and fighting Storm. Storm would be dead in a flash. Dark Phoenix wouldn't hesitate.

I don't see how Jean could be any angrier or freaked out than she is at Alcatraz. Again, you're assuming Storm does not have any effective means of fighting off Jean, or what Jean does happens instantaneously. I disagree with both points. But again you're entitled to your opinions

You're quite the master at lite speak... let's hope none of that shows up in your oh-so-promising rewrite.

So far so good, and 100% l33t-phree. I wish you success in your endeavour as well. I'll be posting it in your forum as well

Phoenix is a personality, correct. But it takes over Jean when her abilities are beyond her control. Anytime she loses it, Phoenix takes over.

Anytime she gives into anger, is threatened, becomes anxious, or otherwise agitated, her emotions lose control and she takes on the phoenix persona.

This means:
Phoenix=Power, Jean=Power Blocked/Moderated

Phoenix = angry personality. Jean = good personality. Both have equal access to powers.

With the power levels comes the personality.

Incorrect. Personality determines how the powers are used. Just as angry Jean/Phoenix can be destructive, a good Jean could use those same powers to heal and restore, for example. A concept which even the Last Stand novel clearly depicted. Powers themselves do not corrupt. The desire to use them for selfish or destructive gains, and the resulting aftermath is what corrupts.

Storm could try to, yes. But Jean could easily stop it. It is certainly within her limits to be able to deflect lightning or wind, or see through fog and mist - whether using Telepathy or Telekinesis.

No doubt about that. But STorm is capable of alot more than just lightning or wind as I explained earlier.

 

[PhoenixRisen]

So I don't know what you mean by your term. It's meaningless, illogical technobabble. It says nothing, it reveals nothing, it explains nothing. I'm basing my arguments on real, physical, logical examples. Comparing abilities and how they are presented. You are using technobabble.

Yeah and you are using plain old babble...OMG get a grip... lololol

 

[chaseter]

I learn new things every day


Jean's powers would be no more difficult to contral than Xavier's or Storm's. Xavier could effectively mentally rape anyone on the planet, and Storm could destroy all life on earth. Yet neither of them are seen clutching their heads screaming "NO!!! TOO MUCH POWER!!!! can't control!!! too much temptation!!!" Blocking it could help her cope during times of crisis, such as when her telepathy becomes too much and she is crushed by all the voices that invade her mind, but it would not create an alternate persona. Jean if anything is an understanding, compassionate individual who knew the need for control as it was helpful and benefitial to her. Not resentful because she was being held back. If anything, she didn't WANT to burst forward. Her powers are no more dangerous or corrupting than Storm's or Xavier's, whose powers are also linked to their emotions, like Jean.s If they could learn to control them, so could Jean.

I don't see how Jean could be any angrier or freaked out than she is at Alcatraz. Again, you're assuming Storm does not have any effective means of fighting off Jean, or what Jean does happens instantaneously. I disagree with both points. But again you're entitled to your opinions



So far so good, and 100% l33t-phree. I wish you success in your endeavour as well. I'll be posting it in your forum as well


Anytime she gives into anger, is threatened, becomes anxious, or otherwise agitated, her emotions lose control and she takes on the phoenix persona.


Phoenix = angry personality. Jean = good personality. Both have equal access to powers.


Incorrect. Personality determines how the powers are used. Just as angry Jean/Phoenix can be destructive, a good Jean could use those same powers to heal and restore, for example. A concept which even the Last Stand novel clearly depicted. Powers themselves do not corrupt. The desire to use them for selfish or destructive gains, and the resulting aftermath is what corrupts.



No doubt about that. But STorm is capable of alot more than just lightning or wind as I explained earlier.

You want to attack my grammar, then I shall attack yours. What does 'contral' mean? Last time I checked the correct spelling was beneficial. Since when in the English language do we capitalize the first and second letters in a name? I will be waiting for you at Star Trek with my fancy technobabble.

 

[ntcrawler]

yet on the previous page you referred to fictional characters as real people...yea your cool.

You said the outcome of a fight would be based on a public opinion poll. I merely pointed out that the characters would not stop what they're doing to check the polls to see who's going to win or ask for permission to win, or if it's a real fight a person's ability to fight or outcome of his battle will not be determined by public polls or the fighter's response to those polls.

I am not going to argue with you anymore...ask an old woman who has seen the movie and she would even tell you that Jean is more powerful than Storm.

I did ask an old woman. She wanted to know why they remade Carrie. And wasn't Carrie supposed to be tearing up her high school instead of San Francisco? Then she wanted to show me her dentures, but I declined

Jean was more powerful than Storm in the comics...and she is more powerful in the movies.

Jean in the comics is much different than Jean in the movies. Since so many areas were left vague or open regarding the relative strength of their abilities at true potential (Jean's being shown, Storm's not being shown) it is therefore up and open for interpretation.

 

[ntcrawler]

You want to attack my grammar, then I shall attack yours. What does 'contral' mean?

You're attacking my spelling, not my grammar

Last time I checked the correct spelling was beneficial.

I stand corrected.

Since when in the English language do we capitalize the first and second letters in a name?

I type with an accent

I will be waiting for you at Star Trek with my fancy technobabble.

Sorry, I'm not a Trekkie. I gave up after Voyager came out

 

[danoyse]

I did ask an old woman. She wanted to know why they remade Carrie. And wasn't Carrie supposed to be tearing up her high school instead of San Francisco? Then she wanted to show me her dentures, but I declined

Well, Carrie did destroy her entire town in the original Stephen King novel, not just her high school.

 

[ntcrawler]

Well, Carrie did destroy her entire town in the original Stephen King novel, not just her high school.

You're right. That was one creepy, tragic, complex story.

 

[chaseter]

Well, Carrie did destroy her entire town in the original Stephen King novel, not just her high school.

And Catwoman scratched a stone woman. Carrie was a creepy movie though. Stephen King has an f'ed up mind.

 

[Sandman138]

Please. The showdown that SHOULD have been was Colossus vs. Juggernaut. Halle vs. Carrie wouldn't have even come close to that.

Thank you.

 

[Cyclops]

I did ask an old woman. She wanted to know why they remade Carrie. And wasn't Carrie supposed to be tearing up her high school instead of San Francisco? Then she wanted to show me her dentures, but I declined

Sure, go ahead and steal my "Movie Phoenix is a cheap Carrie ripoff" joke.